9 replies to this topic

[filmmusic]

Hello all.
I wanted to ask a question if there are any composers /orchestrators here.
I can't find an orchestration forum where I could ask..
anyway:

I have a cue for strings where the first half is pp muted (con sordino) and then they turn to f normal (senza sord.).
This cannot be performed live since there is no time at all for the strings to remove their mutes.
i wanted to ask this: if I use "sul tasto" instead of con sordino, would it be almost the same sound?
I know what each technique does (I have orchestration books), but i wonder if they resemble in the sound somehow.
I have listened to passages for both techniques but i can't really decide.

the other alternative of course is for the cue to be recorded in 2 takes..

[Marcus]

Ultimately, it's a matter of color. Keep in mind that you can still play 'f' with regular mutes (but obviously with less brilliance). Depending on the music, you might ask your players to remove mutes stand by stand (if your section is large enough, this can be negotiated fairly seamlessly).
"Sul tasto" gives you a round, somewhat more hollow sound (even more so if you ask them to play "flautando", which is often the sound we composers really want when we write "sul tasto"!"), regular mutes give a slightly more brittle softness. Optionally, you could ask for wooden mutes (aka. "Shostakovich mutes"). What these do, is give you a muted sound that is less edgy, less metallic.

If your 'f' later on MUST be brilliant and truly loud, and it isn't feasable to have your players switch stand by stand, I'd opt for the following instruction to be given: "Sul tasto, quasi con sordino". They'll know what you want.

[filmmusic]

Yes, I know that con sordino can play loud too, but I think I don't like the sound of it..
In addition, there is not enought time to remove mutes stand by stand.
the cue is 1 minute. 0.00-0.40 approx. is muted and the rest is non muted.
it shouldn't sound briliant in the non muted part (after all it's for a death scene), but I really liked the change from muted to non muted..
I thought of sul tasto because I saw James Newton Howards' prince of tides score, and in some soft passages (eg. in the beginning of the titles ) he uses sul tasto, and I believe he used it as a substitute for con sordino. (he couldn't use con sordino as he wanted the strings unmuted right away)

hmmm.. maybe the solution you say (sul tasto, quasi con sordino) is the best ..

by the way, I don't know if you or anyone else use symphobia .
Actually the whole concept came from there. because for my piece i used the patch "str ens sus soft DYN". (when the modwheel is in 0, strings are muted and when is in 127, they are unmuted)
I used this and i really liked the result. (in the beginning sounding constrained and then not)

[Marcus]

Try it! String players will know what you're after. (I, on the other hand, have no idea what symphobia is, but can only respond from a concert context...)

[filmmusic]

Ok, thanks..

symphobia is a sample library.
When you've got to do midi mock-ups of your music you use sample libraries..

[Marcus]

I had a hunch... Oh, if I were only more computer-savvy, the whole sample/software route would've been so much more feasible... As it is, I'm stuck with pen&paper, and though they are my favorite (and only) tools, it's getting to be a hostile reality for those of us who stick to such antiquated methods. For now, I get by having publishers dealing with engraving&parts, and I do piano demos when needed, but I certainly feel a lot of pressure to provide mock-ups! I've only done two feature scores (I work primarily in the field of concert music, and even there, the pressure's on to deliver mock-ups of some sort..), and was blessed enough to be allowed getting by with a piano, vocalizing and hand gestures, but as industries are getting more and more streamlined, these rather extremely traditional (and sonically somewhat limited) means of musical demonstration seem to cause quite a bit of frustration...

[filmmusic]

yes, I know.
i write with pencil and paper too in the piano. I can't elsewhere. I only use samples in the end for the mockup.
I think that computers and writing in software and midis etc are responsible for the low quality of music today.
How can you have counterpoint, development, etc, if you don't see the notes on paper?
but it's a neccessary evil in the end if you want the director to understand what you're composing. you can't just present him your pieces in the recording stage. hehe..

by the way, here's how a chord sounds with the sample i just said (going from mute to unmute)

Attached Files

•  chordstrings.mp3   413.94K   6 downloads

[Marcus]

Well, if what you're after is a live 'replica' of the sound provided by your sample, I would opt to have your players switch stand by stand to 'ordinario' (or pos.naturale) from a complete 'flautando', going from 'pppp' (quasi niente) to 'f brilliante'. I would also add 'poco vib.' over the last part of the crescendo, or even tied with the' f'; this would emulate the smooth, even swell and 'phase shift' of your sample!

[filmmusic]

well, this was just an example of the sound.
in my piece the change takes place during a quarter in time 30 (Grave)

and yes, i also had non vibrato for the top line only (which is an ostinato falling pattern and wanted to sound pale) which turns to vibrato in the change..

[Swordfish392]

filmmusic, not sure if it would fit on your passage, but there's also the possibility of letting the strings take of their mutes one by one (you could write "stagger mutes off" or something)
taking of the mutes can be done pretty quickly btw: (at least on violin)