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I heard JW described Zimmer's Man of Steel score as a "completely unlistenable shower of shite"

just saw the movie for the 2nd time. I realized that the flatiron scene is introduced by the death star motif from ANH!

That's how it always starts, they're honoured and humbled. Then comes the running and screaming.

I would honestly be mortified if I found out that John Williams reads JWFan.

I believe that John Powell has gone through things considered more insulting than having to score a Star Wars movie and having to deal with John Williams composing a theme for one of the most iconic characters of the franchise for which he dedicated 40 years of his life.

As much as I adore Williams and his Star Wars scores (they're the reason I got into film music), it might be heresy to say, but Star Wars does not belong to John Williams. If George Lucas could let it go, Williams certainly can. Of course I think he should have first right of refusal on scoring any of these movies, no one will ever make Star Wars music like John Williams. But otherwise I think he should step back and allow other composers to do as they will. I hope this report rumour unverified gossip isn't true, or if it is true I hope it's being mischaracterised.

Or: "I don't like Giacchino and I want to believe that someone I admire might have the same opinion." Yep, two can play at that game! It doesn't work, does it? I've got a better idea: How about we allow everyone their own opinions, even if they might differ? And let's stick to the facts. Fact is that you don't like Giacchino. Fact is that I do enjoy what he does, while admitting his work is certainly not at Williams' level. Fact is that there is no official information regarding Williams' opinion. So let's leave Williams himself out of this.

I think the compressed schedule thing comes off as a flimsy excuse. Williams et al in their "youth" regularly scored movies in the timeframe Gia had. Williams managed to knock off several big scores a year and concert works while being the full time conductor of the BPO. In effect, give Gia another month, and I would bet RO would sound pretty much the same. It is an okay score. I think Williams in well within his rights to want more than an okay score for something so closely connected with his legacy.

John Williams would not be where he is today without having strong opinions and particular points of view when it comes to music/his music. I'm sure he's just as opinionated as Goldsmith, Barry, Herrmann, and Horner were...he's probably just better at airing those opinions in the appropriate setting while being diplomatic and gracious in public. It has nothing to do with being nice or mean or positive or negative. As one member of the LSO put it: 'the iron fist in the velvet glove'. And I absolutely think JW can judge the quality of a score after viewing a movie once. He could also probably listen to one cue from Desplat, Powell, and Giacchino and make very astute judgements about compositional quality without needing to listen to their entire discography.

There has been a lot of anti-Giacchino sentiment going around lately which appears quite over-the-top to me, regardless of Giacchino's merits (or lack thereof). This is very similar to the larger anti-Disney sentiment in regards to the Star Wars films and the whole DC versus Marvel flame wars elsewhere. What I see there are fanboys heatedly defending their own opinions with whatever arguments they can, whether true or made up, to back up their claims. Sometimes they make valid points. And sometimes they make no sense at all. Sometimes rumours turn out to be true. And sometimes they prove to be no more than conspiracy theories. Truth is that this rumour might be true and it might not be. We don't know for sure and we possibly never will. Personally I find it very difficult to believe, based on what facts I know. But I honestly do not know and I will not claim that I do. Ultimately, it is a rumour and I will treat it as such.

He can do what he wants. But it doesn't sound like it fits his personality at all, nor does it fit with the (admittedly limited) facts that I know. Giacchino did his best on Rogue One, doing a lot of work in a short time. The end result may not be perfect, but I've listened to it several times and it is honestly not anywhere close to being bad. Why would a consummate professional and humble person like Williams bring Giacchino down? Especially when he knows that Giacchino was dealt a difficult situation to begin with? Surely he also knows that Giacchino is very respectful of him. Why would Williams not be supportive in return? Remember that Williams has also voiced respect for Hans Zimmer's work in the past. I have not a clue if Williams meant that or not, but he certainly said something along those lines. Giacchino has had Steven Spielberg's support for a long time already, who is obviously very close to Williams. Surely Giacchino has been mentioned in their conversations at times. If Williams were not appreciative of Giacchino, surely he would never have been hired for Jurassic World? And if Williams had objected to his work there, surely Giaccchino would not have been asked to "save the day" on Rogue One? It just doesn't make any sense. This whole rumour sounds like a conspiracy theory if ever there was one. Until I hear actual facts or official statements, I simply cannot believe it.

Some people on here have this weird image of Williams that he must be a kind of saint who wouldn’t dare say a bad word about anybody. If if he has any sort of professional integrity (which he obviously does) he absolutely would want to hear what other people have done in a universe he sonically defined and he absolutely would give his honest opinion on it.

I can't imagine any director making a Star Wars movie who wouldn't want JW's involvement.

Worth a re-post:

I don't believe those quotes for a moment. JW has approved of Gia writing Star Wars music in the past. Don't forget Gia wrote SW music for Star Tours and JW approved of that too. He also likely listened to Gia's music for Jurassic World as well. If JW were dissatisfied with Gia following up his own music, he would have had numerous opportunities to intervene in the past especially if these quotes are accurate and JW holds such power over who works on SW music.

That would be rather funny. Rogue One End Credits roll, lights come on....... Williams: “Kathleen dear, may we have a word in private?” Williams gently removes his glasses, door slams shut, horrified Disney & Lucasfilm employees hear screaming, muffled words they only though possible in nightmares.....

"Spoke ill?" Not being enthusiastic about a score is "speaking ill of another composer?" It's not as if he went on an expletive laden tirade against the guy. If you believe John Williams is somehow too deific to have opinions and express them, well....

John Williams speaking to Kathleen Kennedy with John Powell looking on in frustration.

You could ask the people who know the people. I laughed at him recommending Desplat. I could picture Kathleen Kennedy asking if he was serious and has he been living under a rock for the last year.

Amazing catch, lemoncurd. It absolutely is the Death Star motif -- listen to this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dJQ5VhvY_WLjvkka6v0SSZyPPK_gcWKg Quite an easter egg! I'll update my little catalogue accordingly.

Man of Steel is a good score

Exactly that! And that applies to Giacchino and Powell too. Chances are there will be a gazillion Star Wars movies in the future and they won't all have the same composer. They do seem committed to maintain Williams' original style, which means we haven't seen or heard the last of this. What if they are at the moment "shopping around" for different composers while Williams himself is still around to provide feedback and perhaps support? If they try as much as possible now, they'll learn as much as possible too. Giacchino is still in Disney's good graces as he's still attached to The Incredibles 2. And he's still attached to the next Jurassic World, which is produced by Spielberg and suggests that he's still considered good enough to follow John Williams there. I expect Rogue One will not be his final Star Wars score. The same applies to Desplat. I expect he'll end up getting another Star Wars assignment as well, eventually. Though I have to admit, I also expected one of those two to get "Solo". John Powell getting that assignment was therefore a rather massive surprise! But not an unwelcome surprise; out of the three attached so far, I think he's the most promising choice of all. Williams writing the main theme is yet another surprise, but again a welcome one. I do not believe it would have been necessary and I don't want to read too much into it. But Powell is used to collaborating with other composers anyway, so there does not necessarily need to be any conspiracy. In the end, only the future will tell. I think we'll see more Star Wars scores by all of them. And, based on Fantastic Beasts, I reckon James Newton Howard is a strong contender too. I'm excited to find out! One way or another, it'll lead to varied and enjoyable scores in a genre that I appreciate!

That's being complimentary, all things considered. It's bizarre that people believe Williams is incapable of passing criticism about other composer's works. He might indulge in platitudes for the cameras but behind closed doors his finger is on the pulse of modern sensibilities and, to close friends and collaborators, he'd say exactly how he feels (especially on other composers interpreting his work -- especially if he didn't like the results). We also know he's very involved with Star Wars music beyond his scores and we know from Giacchino that he's heard Rogue One. If he wasn't a fan of the score then he did the sensible thing: told Kennedy his honest thoughts (which were probably solicited), why he felt that way, and recommended another composer he believed would better reflect the musical sensibilities of the series. What is disrespectful about that? Should he only lavish effusive praise, regardless of his actual opinion, just so people don't get their feelings hurt? Ridiculous and unrealistic, especially in Hollywood (doubly so with a ruthless operator like Kennedy in charge, who clearly wouldn't appreciate such nonsense). It's also perfectly likely he wrote to Gia and told him the things he liked about his score, glossing over the things he didn't.

I think you completely miss the point: this is no official interview or something, there have been insider rumors that, maybe at Kennedy's behest, Williams saw this movie and may have said something to the effect that he wasn't entirely convinced by Giacchino's score and he wouldn't recommend him for further movies. What the hell does this have to do with character assassination you insinuate? If he didn't like the score - and i don't think it's a fabricated lie, because more than one LA insider reported it - of course he would have to say at least *something* to get his point across, don't you think?

This would be cool if true and it meant Gia was barred from future involvement in any franchise featuring a John Williams score!

JW to be completely honest does not have that power. He was consulted. And consulted by Kennedy. Who makes the final call. I think the version of events went something like this. Kennedy hired Desplat for R1 Heard the demos, did not like them. Did not think the music fit the universe (she's super protective of the brand and probably has Iger breathing down her neck) Asked him to try again And then fired him Took a punt on Gia Independently JW either watches R1 or is asked to watch Kennedy explicitly asks for JW's opinion JW says he didn't like the score. She says who would you have do the score. He recommends Desplat and she says he did not deliver. JW says Powell. Kennedy says I got burned with R1. Want an easier ride. Asks JW if he can guide Powell. JW agrees. -- The only strange thing is - Gia positively felates JW with his music. He's trying so hard to be JW. But I think ultimately his music is on the melodramatic side and JW might have found it tasteless and cheesy.

Likewise! I'd be a little bit disappointed in John Williams as a person though if he spoke ill of fellow composers or people he worked with. He always strikes me as a consummate professional and an excessively humble, respectful and kind person. I massively respect him for exactly that! (Plus his incredible music. That too. )

Who knows? Even if he did it’s not going to change my opinion of how much I enjoy Rogue One.

I sincerely doubt Williams would ever say something like that. He's too much of a professional. Hasn't he always been respectful of his fellow composers?

Or Ahch-To. In any case, it's his right. He created the SW sound and it makes sense for him to call what is and what isn't right for the series. Maybe he sees more versatility in composers like Desplat, Powell or Newman. They clearly at least attempt to reach beyond the film music tropes whereas Giacchino seems to be more of a "film music" educated crowd. Hard to say really. Or maybe he simply wants artists to find their own voice and reinterpret certain ideas in unique ways. Many artists tend to get offended by emulations and pastiches of their own work. After all inspiring the creativity is way more rewarding rather than someone merely approximating certain style. Just like imitating someone's accent, it simply isn't terribly flattering. Karol

I'd wager that Williams would not have done this had he done RPO. So, it is very nice consolation prize. Of course, maybe because he is doing this, he could not do RPO (but I highly doubt that).

HZ: "NO, not him! Take Junkie!" JW: "Resitance is futile, give him to me."

I do not have the DVD of The Patriot to refer to. I'll go ahead and assume I disagree with you, though.

Not bad...

Geek!

Nah. It's too inconsequential to be a leitmotif, much less one that can be treated separately from the unabridged Force theme. It's just a little introduction figure.

As much as I like the Rey lightsaber cue, I prefer both Rey's Journey cue and the awesome rendition of her theme at the beginning of The Last Jedi. If I had to choose only two of these three to appear on the FYC, I'd omit the lightsaber cue. I still would have liked it to appear on the FYC though. It was quite a prominent piece of music in the film so it is unfortunate it never appeared in either the OST or the FYC. Its short length and major theme makes it an ideal cue to appear as a blu-ray menu music so maybe we'll get lucky.

Don't fret about Rey's training track. We might get really lucky and be able to assemble a mostly SFX-free version with the Bluray extras/rear channels.

This is rumour control, here are the facts. All this is pure conjecture. The point is, we have no idea what was said, and, more importantly, how it was said. Remember, that JW has known Kathleen Kennedy for over thirty-five years, and (I would imagine) considers her a friend, as well as a colleague. By comparison, he's known Cappuccino for about five minutes. What happened behind closed doors was one professional passing an opinion on another professional's work, which he is entitled to do, given both the circumstances, and the context. JW created the STAR WARS sound, and if anyone knows how it should sound, it's him. The only other time (certainly that I can think of) that an event like this was covered in print, was JW's reaction to SUPERMAN II. That was an honest and visceral response to what he had just watched. I agree with artguy; this is heretical. In other words: forget it, JWfan, it's FSMtown.

Or...”suck it JWFANS!”

For anyone going to PoA in Rotterdam: it will have a choir! Spoke to a friend tonight who told me his sister is in it: she’d been singing “Double Trouble” at home all the time!

Netflix is heaven!

Just speculating. At least Han Solo and the Princess in its original slow, serene version would not suffice for such a film, and I'm not convinced that the theme would be successful in a more energetic arrangement. But a new theme derived from the old one would be interesting...

Surely some measure of romance between the two already started in A New Hope. Empire Strikes Back does not immediately follow ANH the way TLJ follows TFA. I'm certain more stuff happened inbetween that is not shown in the films. Because we wants it?

If Williams already wrote a theme for Han, why will he write a new one?

Its used before the love story is set in motion for "technical" reasons: Williams wanted to introduce the theme as early as possible, so the first time that either one of the lovers (Han, as it so happens) appears, the theme is used. The next appearance is with Leia, and "grows" out of her theme. Empire Strikes Back has the closest thing in Star Wars to a Howard Shore-esque "overture." Both the Imperial March, love theme and Droid motif are all stated in that very sequence. What seals the deal for me is that musically, the love theme may as well have been a secondary Leia theme. Its absolutely tied to her theme, and it no way evokes Han Solo. I dunno. Luke and Leia isn't as clearly tied to Leia's main theme in the way that the love theme is. Williams doesn't compose themes that can be arranged into "families" a-la Wagner or Howard Shore. There are connections between themes, and occasionaly a character will have a secondary theme, but there aren't sets and subsets of them.

YES!!!!! Powell is the best option by far.