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Yeah, I agree. I don't think this stuff just flies past him. Whatever time went into looking at that scene, writing the music for that little moment, conducting/recording it, I just can't believe that John Williams himself wouldn't notice that it sounds a bit like Battle of the Heroes. Most of us heard it on the first listen. It doesn't require careful observation. Like you said, I doubt there's deep meaning behind it. Maybe it was something that accidentally came out while he was sketching or improvising and he kept it for fun because it's Star Wars and Star Wars is fun. Maybe it was in the temp and one of Rian Johnson's personal favorites so he left it in as a surprise for his director, and the fanboys can make a thread if they're upset. But he's gotta be aware. I'm sure there's a fairly benign reason why "Talk of Podracing" randomly shows up in Force Awakens too, by the way. Again, maybe that was in the temp and he and JJ looked at each other and went "That's kinda nice!" Once I got past that initial anxiety of "WHY?!?!?!" it really is just a small and sweet way to blend it in with the prequels, even if it's for no particular reason. As for "The Spark" ostinato sounding like "Imperial March"...I don't think that's coincidence. I just can't see Williams going "Oops" if we pointed that out. Like we're so clever. John Williams has conducted "The Imperial March" hundreds of times in concert since he wrote it. He's studied, rehearsed, performed it with every great orchestra in America. He's heard it played everywhere, unexpectedly. Over and over and over and over and over. Every year. For decades. He's incorporated it subtly and overtly into seven film scores. He is 86 and by all accounts -- judging by how articulate he is in interviews, comments from people who are still working with him, and the work itself -- he's sharp as a tack. That dude is not missing anything. Come on. He knows what it sounds like. Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Williams spent a lot of time with both characters, thinking about their stories, writing music to express them and ultimately tie them together effectively and intelligently. The march is the menacing theme for the Skywalker patriarch and at the end of Last Jedi, his son and grandson are ready to face off with his daughter watching? That's a big legacy moment. Ben Solo rules the First Order and Luke Skywalker himself is a darker figure than we have seen him before and this is him at the height of his powers. He's our good guy hero but not so innocent anymore. He's dangerous, mysterious, threatening. Dad's hanging around. I think the "Jedi Steps" reveal of Luke is harmonically related to "Imperial March" for similar reasons, and the trumpet triplets evoking the end of the concert piece when Kylo Ren first appears in Force Awakens aren't coincidence either. I don't think this stuff is always about overt melodic references with Williams. I think he enjoys going " same color, different brush" or vice versa. There are pretty good reasons why a lot of Kylo Ren's stuff sounds like various bits of ROTS underscore too. Yeah, there's the temp, but I think he followed it when it made sense to him. It's a simple story and these connections are pretty clean as far as I'm concerned. John Williams has proven far too often that he doesn't miss a beat. It's why his scores are so good. He's too smart for this crap.

When the sequel trilogy was first announced, that was the theme I had most wanted reprised from the OT. The theme itself has always been one of the more emotionally-driven themes from Star Wars for me, but then to have it played within the scene under the now unfortunate context of it being the last scene we'll get between Fisher and Hamill makes it that much more so. The second half, as has already been summed up here more concisely than I ever can be, is absolutely fantastic. The complete silence in the theater as we see Luke step out to that slow build of the cue, with the captivation and engrossment from the audience so palpable in the air, was hands down the biggest highlight of my moviegoing experiences last year. I really like how this trilogy has seen almost a blending of the ways Williams wrote themes for the prequel and original trilogies, with most of the thematic material being character-based as was seen with the OT but still getting great thematic statements for the big event moments within the film like we saw a lot with the PT (seeing Luke at the end of TFA, Luke embracing the legend as he steps out to face Kylo in TLJ, etc). It's also just great fun to have, like we do with that last half of the cue, something from Williams that I can't point to and say that it sounds like something he previously wrote. You just hear it and wonder "woah, where did that come from?"

As both a combination of film and image and a standalone cue, it's a knock out (if Luke could kill, he probably will...). I can't be the only one who sees it as a natural development of the Jedi Steps theme (which is in itself a sly evocation of Vader's theme). It's as if Williams is observing that in his final act of mastery, Luke has now fully integrated his own shadow with his self into a well-functioning whole, though a process of individuation. This process has been mediated by his soul-image or anima, in the form of Yoda (and to some extent Rey), the spiritual middle-man between his conscious and unconscious. His tainted family history (Vader) and youthful rebellion has been reconciled with his noble Jedi ideals. The dark now at one with the light. That's my bit of cod Jung for the day.

It is very much intentional. I don't see how anyone can't hear the deliberate parallel between the piece and Vader's theme.

That's all I'd wish for from this film. If they do that and don't completely ruin Han's character, it'll be a success in my book!

It's great!! The entire score is awesome!!

So here’s what I don’t understand. This past December, John gifted us a soundtrack album that is among the best scores I’ve heard this decade. An album where each and every cue is entertaining, melodic, emotional, and containing a richness and depth of gorgeous orchestration that is just astounding. It’s a crowd pleasing score like enthusiasts lament doesn’t get written anymore. A score with four or five central melodic ideas that get developed and played with in super cool ways over the course of the album. . . . . . . . . . But nobody is talking about FERDINAND. Well, here goes. I have listened to this soundtrack at least twice a week over the past 4 months and it just has not gotten old. It’s so dense with ideas! Powell is resetting/recontextualizing melodies in ways where I don’t realize what it is until the 4th time I’ve listened to the cue. I’m going to go on record saying that I think “Flower Festival” is one of the best film score tracks of the decade. The Flower Theme (a name that Powell himself uses to describe the main melody in “Flower Festival”) is definitely the showstopper theme of the score. But I’m a bit fascinated with this other theme lately. It’s the only central theme not introduced in the opening cue, “Bees and Bulls.” I call it the Pacifist Theme and it’s first introduced in the cue “Father and Son.” I think it represents how Ferdinand (and Powell) wish the world worked, that people could live non-violently. I haven’t seen all of the movie, not really up my alley, but I think that’s what it is. It’s an aching melody that perfectly captures a reality that Powell knows is just a dream. Anyway, holy crap it’s great. It’s far from the most used theme in the movie, but when it is it’s for maximum emotional effect. Here’s where it’s quietly introduced on strings, guitar, and oboe. (0:40 - 1:06) Now this isn’t really a quote of the theme, but in my opinion it absolutely is meant to function as a grief-stricken echo of the melody as Ferdinand’s illusions are shattered by the death of his father. (0:41 - 0:56) The proper theme makes an appearance later in the same track, “Finding Home.” This rendition evokes an almost spiritual joy as Ferdinand first steps out into the idyllic field of flowers that serves as his new home. In “A New Day” the theme has a lovely quiet rendition on just guitar with backing horn before the strings join in and it transitions perfectly to the Flower Theme The theme sits out for a while before making a return for the final minute of “Ferdinand and Nina.” The cellos lead on this rendition, reflecting a deeper, more mature Ferdinand mourning for his idealized world that doesn’t exist It then sits out again until the great “Madrid Finale” where it makes two appearances. Setting up the emotional climax of the score to 6:36 - 7:04 A wonderful, triumphant setting at 9:05 And finally he closes out the score with it, at least before quick celeste rendition of the Flower Theme. Definitely an indication of the melody's importance to Powell's emotional intent for the score overall, despite it being used only sparingly. I can already tell you that this is definitely going to be one of my most listened to albums of 2018 and I cannot wait to hear what Powell (and Williams) have cooked up for Solo. I have a work in progress breakdown of all the themes in the score that I might post later.

I debated whether I should start a new thread for this, figured it was alright in the end:

Listen to Chen G, my cartilaginous friend. If Williams didn't spell it out with a giant, red highlighter pen, it didn't happen. We know he doesn't do subtlety, unlike Giacchino.

Mm. My problem with the way you're approaching this is that I'm not feeling much room for nuance. Hope you'll clarify if I'm misinterpreting but what I'm getting from you is that John Williams either completely 100% intends these references with specific authorial intent or the similarity would never occur to him at all? I think the way people create and remember and think about things is too messy for that and I think these scores end up the way they do for plenty of odd reasons. The TPM thing, I doubt there's anything special behind that but it doesn't mean Williams didn't notice the similarity at some point while he was writing or recording and have a chuckle. And anyway, "The Spark" example is different to me because it carries much more significant dramatic weight and so I think it's completely possible that he gave it more careful consideration than the TPM example. I don't think it's a stretch at all that he might have found it appropriate to hint at the theme without being too overt, just fucking with the intervals and rhythm to craft a new piece because quoting Imperial March verbatim would be distracting. I mean, that fits my perception of John Williams as a tasteful artist concerned with details. I also allowed for the possibility that it was just a nice coincidence and you ignored that. It just seems like you're characterizing Williams as blissfully unaware of anything in these scores that isn't bleeding obvious and literal and I'm saying that when it comes to the guy who is actually writing the music and scrutinizing and living with it for months, I think it's likely that he would catch on to these things eventually and still carry on, because it fits well or doesn't really matter.

E.T. for the first time. I've never heard the score before. I did some research and apparently there's a theme park ride at Universal Studios with flying bikes and the alien's planet. It's directed by the same guy who made Always. Not as good. It was a bit too cheesy. NASA spacemen invading the house, awkward child performances and the bizarre titular alien, which looks like a deformed penis.

Call it whatever you like - you're speculating as much as the other guys.

Been a while since I've gone for an esoteric joke on JWFan. Feels good.

I'm not saying he's infallible altogether. I'm sure he has tons of brain farts with his music accidentally sounding like other things, composed by himself or others. But a major climactic piece of a Star Wars score by John Williams that is built around a specific motif that deliberately repeats over and over and just happens to sound like Imperial March? I really don't think that went over his head. I'm not saying he was conscious of all those specific reasons I pinpointed. I'm saying that I think he probably evoked it on purpose, perhaps based on an initial thought like "Luke is powerful and ominous here and reminds me that he is Vader's son" and these connections start coming out because he has great instincts as a composer and dramatist. And if it is coincidence, it's not blind but well-informed by his previous work on these movies and half a lifetime with Star Wars music rolling around in his head.

To the JWFan petition mobile! Na na na na na na na na JWFan!

I'll throw in Meet Joe Black by Thomas Newman for good measure!

Ah man, if the 4/26 release turns out to be Alien³, I hope they were able to include the original ending cue written by Goldenthal. Stoked!!

I’m not referring to the random guy talking about the Star Wars “songs” -that’s practically as old as film music itself and it’s just a sign of understandable ignorance on the matter. But to the current trend (which didn’t really exist a few years ago) of calling instrumental themes for film, TV and games “theme songs” (“songs are for pop/rock, theme songs are for movies and stuff”) as a sort of official, consensual, universally approved term used in all kinds of publications, including newspapers, dictionaries and wikipedias. It’s as if the world has finally figured out how they are called, and they’re making it official. And very few dare to contradict it.

Agreed. The surface pleasures of a Powell animated score are always immense so the OSTs can be appreciated casually, but at their best reward full immersion as well.

It would be a coincidence if it appeared in a non-SW score. The theme is part of the concert suite for ROTS. I would even guess the scene was tempted with the damn thing. Williams did not just stumble into the same 9 nine note melody. I am not saying he is trying to connect the theme to that moment for narrative reasons, but I guarantee he knew it was his own theme from ROTS when he put it in TLJ.

Philosopher's Stone originally was released for PS1 and PC only, and those have synth samples only. By the time Chamber of Secrets came around I guess the music budget was increased and Soule was able to start recording that and subsequent titles with real orchestra. Philosopher's Stone for Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube was released in 2003, so Soule went back and recorded some of his PS tracks with the orchestra too, for that. So only the earliest games have pure synth, the others are at least mostly orchestral.

Not sure; are you allergic to Zimmerians?

Calling cues songs doesn't bother me. They can call it whatever, I don't care really. It's not really a crime to not be familiar with "correct" terminology. After all "score" in most people's eyes has more to do with football or being promiscuous rather than film music. What does bother me, though, is when we hear and trailer renditions of classic themes and people call them "genius and emotionally powerful" reinterpretations. All stripped down to bare chords most of the time. When people can't distinguish between virtuoso musicianship and cheap sounding synth just because it gives you more of an adrenaline rush. Don't get me wrong, there is place for all sorts genres and approaches in film music but it's the lack of nuance and people wanting the easy stuff that's killing it all (to be a bit dramatic). Terminology is the least of an issue here. Karol

Looney Tunes...

Oooh, a blockade! Epic!

JWFAN DANCE PARTTTTYYYYYY!!!!!! Here's a fun whack-ass dance tune. https://soundcloud.com/hip_tanaka/jaber-ver-2-2013

Beautifully summed up. The entire cue is utter perfection. It feels like the most polished, most refined and best performed cue in the entire score. Probably of any score he's written in over a decade. Something just "clicks" with this piece, in a perfect combination of direction, visuals and music, yet it also stands alone as an incredible piece outside the film itself (like all great music does).

Don't worry, I like it. Besides, there's plenty of genuinely silly dance music out there. And now for some medieval rave. Start your Saint Vitus dance.

"Indy, I am right here."

That's already been released. It's called The Planets by Gustav Holst.

It's definitely the highlight of the score and film, IMO. It features the final farewell to the original heroes of the OT (Luke, Leia and Han) with the use of themes and Luke handing the dice to Leia.

As far as bringing back an older theme in this score...man, did Williams take the ball, chew it out, then pimp slap it out of the park. The reprise of Luke and Leia is so tender, yet also carries this certain tension that smacks me right in the heart. The ostinato thing feels very strange for John Williams to do in a Star Wars movie, but I think it works.

I love it, especially the little hint of Darth Vader's theme that never quiiiiiite develops.

No movie is really necessary. Except Jurassic Park.

~ The cue starts at around 14:30 into the stream and runs until around 15:30 and sounds really fun! (though unfortunately one of the hosts talks over it) Thanks for sharing Faleel!

An exception to Thor's rule? He can't do that! Shoot him! Or something!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UH6InTFR1SLOn6mTVJVsvxyx3zrOj0kJ

Thanks a lot for the wonderful analysis of this beautiful score. It's one of my favourites from recent years too.

But the vinyl version comes with a phone.

The Book Thief by John Williams Les Misérables by Basil Poledouris

I don't dance but this album was the fucking bomb for people who did back in my day. Good for the bedroom too. That Enigma track reminds me of this. I've seen this album referenced a lot lately and I am pretty sure my advocating for it on here is entirely responsible. Not sure you'd dance to it though.

The Assasination of Jesse James By The Coward Robert Ford - First time watching this all the way through. It's a bit long, but overall pretty compelling and quite good. Casey Affleck is great, but I especially found Pitt's understated performance to be of note. Also Deakins cinematography is as usual, terrific. - 8 / 10

Do they seriously not have better-sounding orchestral sample libraries for these apps? It's 2018... Luckily they decided to spend that fortune for the last four games and Hannigan's scores.

The "galaxy far, far away" qualifier.

This is much more than mere allusions to existing themes. Rather, these are truncated versions of existing JW tracks, and sound almost like a scratched disc skipping ahead... Sounds like the very laziest way of avoiding copyright issues...

Did anyone take pictures of John Williams sitting with the audience in the first half of the concert with the Philadelphia Orchestra last night? My girlfriend and I were lucky to be sitting right next to him! It was unreal! For one hour, we sat next to the maestro, listening to his music together, we looked at him nodding his head to the music and tapping with his left foot. I still can't believe what happened. I shook his hand! Sadly, Mr. Williams arrived when the first piece was starting and left as soon as the applause roared at the end of the tuba concerto. There was no chance for us to take a little selfie. Also, we were fully aware that John Williams was there to listen to his work, not to engage in social chat with his fans. And take a selfie while his music is playing? Not a chance! So, if anyone on this forum was sitting further away and took pictures of him in the audience, we would love to see them as a souvenir of this unbelievable moment!

That music is AWESOME - and pretty clean in the rear channels!