THEfranz_conrad

Charles Ives? Oh, and films I'd like to see made... - something about the way composer Charles Ives heard the world and translated it into music... his tone poems - Unanswered Question, Central Park - and symphonies - Symphony 4 and the incomplete Universe Symphony - are potentially very cinematic; - Beren and Luthien - already mentioned. Terence Malick should make it... I think he'd make an incredible fantasy romance, if The New World is any indication... I can see other stories from The Silmarillion working well. The problem is that so much of the exposition would have to be foregone so as not to lose people... - Solace - Scorsese was looking at this as a project for a while... could be interesting.

Excellent theme and score! Good taste there Mark! 'Sacrifice of a Hero' from MISSION TO MARS also stands as one of his finest achievements.

Well that's a bit unkind. His style suits 21 Grams, Amores Perros and Motorcycle Diaries, and Michael Mann made excellent use of his music in The Insider. I don't like his stuff much as abstract music to listen to (unless it's an album like Ronrocco), but he works well in certain films.

Those looking forward to the coming TTT:EE Complete Recordings might find this old piece of work interesting... This cuelist should give you an indication of the Extended Edition add-ons for TTT - referencing the two DVD discs: # = music composed for the Extended Edition * = unreleased cue. ** = partially unreleased cue. DISC ONE 1. Foundations of Stone [3:34] 2. Main Title [0:34]* # 3. Elven Rope [0:28]* # 4. Lost in Emyn Muil [1:01]* 5. Lembas [1:21]** # 6. Capturing Gollum [1:55] ** 7. The Taming of Smeagol [2:46] * # 8. TTT Overture [7:02]#,** a. The Uruk-Hai [1:32] * # b. The Three Hunters [2:02] ** c. Union of the Two Towers [2:30] ** # d. The Westfold Burns [0:58] * 9. The Fords of Isen [0:38] * # 10. Grima Wormtongue [2:05] * # 11. On the Trail of the Uruks [0:55] * 12. In the Company of Uruks [2:39] *# a. Dinner Debate [1:41] * # b. Mordor Meat [0:58] * # 13. The Riders of Rohan [0:53] 14. The Business of an Elf, a Man and a Dwarf [0:27]* 15. The Pile of Carcasses [1:48]* 16. Grishnakh’s Timely End [4:17]* 17. Treebeard [0:56] 18. The Dead Marshes [0:50]** # 19. Little Candles [2:04]** # 20. Smeagol / Wraiths on Wings [1:54]** 21. Talking Trees [0:22]* 22. Olorin [1:35]** 23. Gandalf the White [1:44]* # 24. Shadowfax / The White Rider [0:56]** 25. Song of the Entwives [1:48]* # 26. Sauron Searches [6:24] **,# a. The Heir of Numenor [1:30] *,# b. The Black Gate is Closed [1:49]** # c. Another Way [2:07]** 27. The Ent Draught / Old Man Willow [2:43] * 28. The Fellowship comes to Rohan [4:31] ** a. Edoras [1:06] ** b. Bitter Watches of the Night [3:25] ** 29. Rohan Revival [7:22] **,# a. King of the Golden Hall [2:00] * b. The White Wizards [1:01] ** c. Theoden King / Theodred’s Funeral [4:21] ** # 30. Symbelmine [1:28] 31. The King’s Decision [1:38] ** 32. Rohan Retreat [5:41] * # a. Brego [1:22] * # b. The Ring of Barahir [1:26] * # c. We Shall Return [0:28] * # d. A Daughter of Kings [1:20] * e. Exodus from Edoras [1:05] * 33. Ithilien [0:56]* 34. Gollum and Smeagol [1:00]* 35. The Rangers of Ithilien [3:29]** # DISC TWO (cue 36 actually continues for 3 seconds into disc 2) 36. Eowyn’s Smile [1:39]* # 37. A Dunedain Ranger / Evenstar [3:57]** # 38. A Gift [1:10]* 39. The Wolves of Isengard [2:32]** 40. Warg Battle [1:35]* 41. Helm’s Deep [3:05]** # 42. The Missing [0:23]** 43. Isengard Unleashed [0:47]* 44. Breath of Life [1:48] 45. Arwen’s Fate [1:25]** 46. Second Prophecy [3:27] a. The Leavetaking [1:10] b. Galadriel’s Prophecy [2:17] 47. Henneth Annun [0:53] ** 48. Brother of Boromir (aka Faramir’s Dream) [0:21] * # 49. Sons of Denethor [3:43] * # 50. The Forbidden Pool [2:40] ** 51. Smeagol Betrayed [0:44] 52. Faramir’s Test [0:49] ** 53. Hope Returns [1:22] ** 54. The Evenstar Restored [0:36] * 55. Preparations for Battle [1:15] * 56. Theoden’s Desperation [1:00] * 57. Entmoot [0:50] 58. Valour without Renown [2:16] * # 59. The Horse and the Rider [1:05] ** 60. Son of Hama [0:18] ** 61. The Fellowship Arms [1:05] ** 62. The Last Alliance – One Final Show! [0:59] * 63. Hornburg Haka [1:30] ** # 64. The Whites of Their Eyes [2:52] ** 65. Fire Undoes Stone [1:10] * 66. The Deeping Wall Breaks [1:41] * 67. Part of this World / The Eldar Retreat [1:54] * 68. Lament for the Eldar [1:13] ** 69. Defending the Keep [1:42] ** 70. The Hornburg Breached [1:17] ** 71. Travelling South / Osgiliath Burns [2:01] * 72. A Wizard Should Know Better [0:07] * 73. Last March of the Ents [1:30] ** 74. The Nazgul Cometh [0:53] * 75. Ride out with Me [1:53] * 76. The Turning of the Tide [4:24] ** a. Forth Eorlingas [1:57] ** b. Stone Breaks, Ground Shakes [2:20] ** c. The Nazgul Goeth [1:07] * 77. Finale [11:29] ** # a. The Tales that Really Mattered [2:49] ** b. Wrath of the Huorns / Final Count [1:18] #,* c. Flotsam and Jetsam [2:11] #,* d. The Good Will of All Men [2:23] #,* e. The Battle for Middle Earth Begins [0:31] * f. Samwise the Brave / Gollum Wins [2:17] ** 78. End Credits [9:04]** a. Gollum’s Song [3:44] b. Eowyn’s Theme [0:19]* c. Seduction of the Ring [0:29] d. Olorin (incl. ‘The Fight’ and ‘The Call’)[0:58] e. Gilraen Theme [0:27]* f. Rivendell Theme (‘The Leavetaking’) [0:40] g. Evenstar Theme (for cor anglais) [0:30]* h. Aragorn’s Theme (flute variation) [0:32] i. Rohan Theme / Finale [1:25] 79. Extended Edition End Credits [11:23]** a. The Uruk-Hai [2:46] b. Forth Eorlingas (without soprano solo) [1:59]** c. Treebeard [1:44] d. Grishnakh’s Timely End (part one) [0:39]* e. A Balrog of Morgoth [0:24]* f. Darkness Took Me [0:21]* g. I Strayed out of Time and Thought [0:25]* h. Gandalf the Grey [0:24]* i. Gandalf the White (excerpt) [0:36]** j. Faramir’s Dream [0:44]* k. Hope Returns [1:22]

Cool, but I tend to think that does restrict the music to following the picture a bit too much. You get a very dramatic kind of mickey-mousing sometimes - though of course there are hundred of exceptions... I like those cases where there is a very real counterpoint between image and picture (often only possible where the composer writes without seeing the picture), or the music clearly leads the action. (E.g. Williams' 'Meeting with Mao', which I suspect was written as a conceptual piece based on the ideas and footage of that scene, and the scene edited to it.)

Really? He hasn't seen COS? (I haven't either.) But aren't there some cues he wrote for the film which directly reference events on screen via 'hits'??! (Not that it wouldn't be impossible to do that without a good music editor...)

Which means, for me, that it's not even a film score. Completing most of a score before the director even puts his stamp on the picture goes against everything a film score is supposed to represent. Previous film scores completed mostly prior to shooting - so clear was the directorial intent: The Conversation (Dir: Coppolla) Once Upon a Time in the West (Dir: Leone) and all subsequent Leone scores Select sequences The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (Dir: Leone) 2046 (Dir: Wong Kar Wai) - while not composed in pre-production, these cues were not written for specific scenes, but written for the script, the director approved the ones which suited his approach. Most of The Thin Red Line was written in this style as well. In the case of the Yared-Minghella collaboration, many of the themes and suites from Cold Mountain and Talented Mr Ripley were written in pre-production. So too with Michael Nyman and The Piano. Heck... John Williams' JFK was, unless I'm mistaken, written from the Sklar/Stone script? And do these films' scores go against everything a film score is meant to represent? These being a fairly small sampling of what is seen as a fairly foresightful practice - the score's composition moving alongside the composition of the picture.

I don't know - I didn't watch the Oscars. Of course Santaolalla's music is going to n degrees less complex than Williams though. The former's background is a solo album career as a guitarist. It's more in the spirit of a Neil Young style score than Williams, who tends to operate symphonically. More forces bring greater capacity for complexity.

On the looping question, there are two themes and some minor motifs (more progressions I suppose) that are derived from those themes. It is however a very minimal score - different style of scoring altogether from Williams, Marianelli and Iglesias (the latter having a different style yet again). The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.) Anyone who wants the whole score btw: click $255?!?!? 8O

The music remains solely in the idiom that you hear on the album, so understand I'm not arguing there are 12-13 unsung masterpiece themes that were left off the album. I'm just saying that it's wrong for everyone to go on saying that: (i) it was a 13 minute score; (ii) the very fact that it was nominated is a sign that the Academy nomination process was hijacked by gay lobbyists because any other score that short would have been disqualified. Well, (i) is untrue. I can't speak for (ii), except to say that the score was obviously not found ineligible. And the SONGS were. If the song writer's branch disqualified the songs for making insufficient impact in the film, I can't see why the composers branch would have had a problem disqualifying the score of an Oscar favourite when barely a year before THREE of the Oscar favourites had their scores disqualified. (RAY, MILLION DOLLAR BABY and THE AVIATOR.) So again, I'm not saying it's a better score than Munich or Memoirs or The Constant Gardener - all three I liked more. I'm just saying the hate is hate - irrational by definition, and seizing on any reason to belittle what does dramatically serve Ang Lee's film. Having said that, if it were up to some of the guys here, Anton Karas' score for The Third Man would have never seen the light of day. Crushed? I must be a more general film score fan then? (Something I don't have a problem with - Williams is the best, but there are others.) Get over it Mark... Admittedly, this is not an unlikely place to find such devoted hero worship, but Williams is my favourite composer too. I chuckled when I heard about the Oscar wins. Learn to value your own opinion more if that's all you care about - the Oscars shouldn't matter.

Good on ya mate. But if you want people to care about your opinion (and you hide behind a Darth Vader mask so I've got a feeling you do), check your facts. It makes a case more compelling.

No. This is one of the most persistent fallacies of the BBM score. The album representation of that score is only 13 minutes long. I gave the album two out of five here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/film...rokebackmt.html As I understand, the Academy score promo runs more like 30 mins. In a film with barely any music at all (unlike the Aviator, where Shore's remaining 25 mins were swamped in other instrumental and pop contributions), this is quite sufficient a score to be eligible for the Oscar nom. It's comparable to Gabriel Yared's nom for Cold Mountain a few years back... his score on the album was only 17 minutes or so, but his Oscar promo was about 45-50 mins.

Yes... Gary's resistance is cracking slowly. But I've decided when TTT comes out in expanded form we should engage in a review battle - the TTT:EE cuelister vs the man who called Oirland's bluff.

Sorry! Fixed...