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At the risk of being pedantic, (1) it's only 4 notes, not 5, as the first note of the Kylo theme in that example is parenthetical, (2) it's in a different tonal context (a modulation from Dm to Cm rather than in Cminor to begin with), and (3) it's a different rhythm, but I do see that this example illustrates that a symmetry can be found between Kylo Ren's theme and that portion of the Emperor's theme. I'm not convinced that this is proof that Palpatine was planned as far back as TFA, but I do not deny the similarity of those 4 notes. Personally, and I may be ignorant, I think this is just an example of JW crafting a theme born from the same tonal environment as the Imperial theme in Ep 4, Darth Vader's Theme, The Emperor's Theme, The Trade Federation Theme, and General Grievous's theme, to name a few. I also do not deny what has been said to the press about CT, JJ, KK, LFL and Palpatine, but unless I was lied to by someone WHO WORKED ON EP 9 DIRECTLY (and I do not deny that is possible), the public version of the story differs from what actually happened behind the scenes (which is not that far fetched to believe). Again, I offer this information as something to consider, I have no reason to lie, no agenda to discredit anyone who either worked on SW or here on the board, just to share something I was told. Please feel free not to believe me.

Could someone please post a picture of the sheet music of The Emperor's Theme with the Kylo notes in it, perhaps circled? I am genuinely curious about this as I can't seem to find it in any of the sheet music I've looked at. Thank you

This is why I said I was PARAPHRASING Joseph Campbell, not quoting him exactly.

The first five notes of Luke's Theme in Star Wars are literally the first five notes of ET's theme. Does that mean that - while few people in the world noticed, it turns out that Luke and ET are related ideas specifically because they were meant to be that way from the beginning? And just to be clear, what five notes of Kylo Ren's theme are you saying are from the Emperor's Theme? Kylo's Theme goes: G F# C Eb low-G. The Emperor's theme goes C Eb C...Eb C Bb...C Eb C G F# F-natural. The Emperor's theme never even goes to low G and Kylo's theme has no Bb or F natural. EDIT -- The Ark theme from RAIDERS is arguably as close to Kylo Ren's Theme as the Emperor's theme is - it's melody is G F# C....G F# C.... Talking about people's comments to the press, JJ is well known for lying to the press all the time, such as when he insisted Benedict Cumberbach was not playing Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness. Filmmakers always soften the truth when talking to the press, especially about bumps in the road. Does anyone really think JJ is going to go to the press and start bad mouthing RJ for totally derailing this trilogy? No, he's going to say nice things and be a nice guy and try to get people to come see his movie. George Lucas has revised his version of the evolution of the Star Wars stories many times over the course of making the original films and then the prequels, even when proof that he's changing history is easily available. I was ready to let this go, but don't call me ignorant. I know what I'm talking about. I don't call people names. Be nice. Thank you.

Mattris, may I ask you, do you believe George Lucas made Star Wars in 1977 with the plan of Darth Vader being Luke's father and Leia being his sister? Or do you think that evolved over the course of making the three films? I can tell you with 100% certainty, RJ did not consult with JJ, did not feel compelled to pick up anything JJ set up. As long as he didn't outright contradict anything JJ said in Ep 7, he could do what he wanted. You do not have to believe me. But I promise you, that is the truth. Kathy Kennedy was completely preoccupied with putting out fires every day on Rogue One so Ep 8 was made with relative freedom by RJ. Remember, when they were making Ep 8, 7 had revitalized SW and Disney was not expecting fan backlash. They still had Josh Trank working on a Boba Fett movie, and CT working on outlines for Ep 9. But trust me, Lucasfilm had no intention of bringing Palpatine back until late in the process of ironing out Ep 9, and it was something CT brought to the table just as a sort of a "what if..." idea when his original pitch for the story was rejected by Lucasfilm. CT was very frustrated with where Ep 8 left things - Luke was dead, Han was dead, Snoke was dead, Carrie Fisher had passed away but Leia was still alive. I think I've said everything I can about this topic. Believe me or don't. People here will vouch for me that I don't post a lot, but when I do, it's pretty much right on....

TFA is constructed very much like Ep 4 is constructed. Secret data is placed in a droid, the droid goes into the desert and is found by a young person with unusually developed skills (Luke's piloting, Rey's scavenging). The young person is taken in by an older father figure (Obi-Wan, Han Solo) who fills the youth in on the state of affairs beyond the desert world. The father figure is murdered by a good guy turned bad and the youth must take up the mantle to carry on the ancient way that is in danger of being lost forever. The good guys attack a colossal super weapon. It's not a carbon copy of Ep 4 - there are differences - but it's clearly built on the spine of a tested formula that JJ knows works - EP 4 is a successful film, not only commercially, but artistically, so he doesn't mess with the structure. [As an aside, I can tell you from personal experience that a big part of JJ's process breaking story is that you have to show him an example where something worked in another film or tv program before he will accept it as an option in whatever you're working on with him] RJ, by contrast, at almost every turn, takes the structure and setup of Ep5 and turns it in the opposite direction. DJ is clearly intended for the audience to relate to as they did to Lando - a scoundrel who betrays the heroes but does the right thing in the end. Only he doesn't. Luke will, perhaps grudgingly like Yoda, finally agree to teach Rey, and his early behavior is a test of her patience to see if she's worthy. Only it isn't - Luke has disconnected himself from the Force entirely and has given up the game. Poe is pulling off the impossible, facing a star destroyer by himself in one tiny x-wing. Instead of being congratulated for heroism as Luke is in the original trilogy, Poe is slapped in the face and demoted. Ben tells Luke - if you face Vader you do it alone, I cannot interfere. In Ep 8, Luke completely interferes by facing Kyle Ren in spirit at the end of the film. The cave sequence in Empire, where Luke faces Vader and finds his own face behind the mask, is mirrored (literally) in Ep 8 when Rey, in trying to see her parents in the dark side cave, only sees herself. The big reveal of Empire, that Vader is Luke's father, is turned against itself when the big reveal of Ep 8 is that Rey's parents are nobodies. If you are saying that Vader's turn to good at the end of Jedi is somehow proof that TFA is not built on following the tropes of Star Wars, because Kylo Ren doesn't turn good at the end of EP 7, with respect, I think that is being too shortsighted. Vader murders Obi-Wan, his old master, "the closest thing he has to father" (dia from ep 2) in front of Luke. Kylo murders Han, his literal father, in front of Rey. Again, let me reiterate, I'm not saying 7 or 8 is better than the other, I am just pointing out that the 2 films are made with very different intentions. JJ reveres the past (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), RJ says "let go of the past. Kill it if you have to..." (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing either). At their hearts, both films reinforce certain core ideas to the star wars stories, such as the young boy with the Force at the end of Ep 8 and the spirit of hope that Leia carries even as they flee Crait.

Certainly Maz Kanata's dialog in the scene about Luke's lightsaber give some significance to the fact it that it was once Luke's, and his father's before his, and now it calls to her. Everyone is asking - "who's the girl?", "what girl?", etc. JJ definitely wants us to get involved in the mystery of her identity. One of the trailers even starts with a line from Maz ro Rey (deleted from the finished film) - "Who are you?". The flashback dream sequence when Rey touches the lightsaber intertwines her childhood memories of being left on Jakku with the events leading the Luke's exile. I don't think it is outrageous to conclude from that that the film is asking the audience to make some connection between Rey and Luke. The scene where Kylo Ren uses the Force to try to read Rey's mind is filled with allusions that there is more to her story than simply being left on Jakku and being nobody. Certainly that she has visions of the island that Luke Skywalker now lives on is some kind of foreshadowing beyond coincidence. The fact that Leia sends Rey to get Luke at the end of the movie also has some influence on the audience attributing some significance to her backstory - there must be some reason she trusts Rey, a girl she met only moments earlier on screen, with this monumentally important task, something more than we know from what the movie explicitly tells us. The movie is constructed to give as much weight to Rey and the mysteries surrounding her identity as possible. Even so, if we were to accept the premise that by the end of TFA she has accepted that her identity is irrelevant, why is she then so upset about it when discussing it with Kylo Ren in ep 8? I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying he took things in a different direction that JJ had thought they would go.

I don’t understand what you’re referring to in The Force Awakens or the original Star Wars. When does Vader have a convenient change of heart in the original Star Wars? Please clarify. Agreed, he’s definitely not excited about it. I never said he was. I think his performance could validly be characterized as resignation to the inevitable though, which is not how RJ handled it, which was much more outright dismissal of Rey, like “go away”. again, I’m not making a judgement of quality here. Just that I believe JJ and RJ had different goals with their films, and that RJ did not rake things where JJ expected they would go.

I’m not making a qualitative judgement on 8 vs 7. But I think JJ and Lawrence Kasdan had set things up to go a certain way following ep 7 and RJ chose to go a different way, watching 7 again recently, it’s pretty clear that JJ meant for Rey to be *somebody*, that Snoke was not intended to be a pawn of Palpatine, that Luke was waiting until the time was right to come back and thus when Rey shows up with the saber at the end, it’s his call back to adventure, to paraphrase Joseph Campbell. its pretty clear that RJ seemed more inspired to deconstruct the tropes of Star Wars where JJ was more inclined to perpetuate them. In any case, this trilogy had no roadmap to its conclusion, it was made up film-to-film as they went along, which was my main point above.

Sorry mattris I can confirm there was no plan,and the commonalities between themes that you are referring to are a result of JW creating a musically consistent pantheon of themes for the saga, and his career. JJ def did not tell JW to compose themes for ep 7 with The Emperor in mind. JJ had no control over where the characters would be taken after ep 7. Hence why Rian Johnson took everything in a totally different direction than 7 hinted, and why Colin Trevorow pitches for ep 9 were different than the path JJ eventually took. CT was the one who brought palpating to the table and that’s why he gets story credit for ep 9. part of the reason JW is such a genius is cos he can take seemingly unrelated ideas and make them work together as if they were meant to be that way from the beginning. also the foreshadowing of the prequels was easier because everyone knew that anakin had to end up as Darth Vader. Nobody knew anything about where the story was headed when they made ep 7.... I don’t say these things lightly - I live and work in LA and although I obviously can’t prove it on a forum like this, I DO know what I’m talking about....

Do you mean OST 4B instead of OST 12B?

Actually I was! It WAS McCartney tapping his foot. D’oh!

I take what i said in the other thread back. I'm done with Star Wars. LOL.

What about me?!

In 2002 I attended a Lucasfilm event in Hollywood where Rick McCallum and Fred someone from ILM explained the evolution from 35mm film in 1977 to digital capture on Ep 2 in 2000. One of the things they went into detail about was the evolution of the laser film printer, a machine which could print out new camera negative. It was developed in the 80's and 90's to improve the quality of CGI images on 35mm - in '77 all the CGI (i.e. the Death Star plans) was captured by pointing a film camera at a computer screen and filming it one frame at a time. In 1996 FOX decided to do a 20th anniversary rerelease of Star Wars. Lucas went into the vaults and struck a new print from the OCN and was shocked at how much the image had degraded. (They showed the first few minutes of this print at the 2002 event. It did not have the "Episode IV A New Hope" subtitle in the crawl.) The print was dark, murky, and pretty much unwatchable. The decision was made to scan the entire original camera negative (OCN) into a computer, repair the image digitally, and then print out a new negative using the laser printer. Since they were scanning the whole film in anyways, GL then decided to upgrade shots that he was never happy with, using CGI. This was how CGI shots were done in Jurassic Park, for example - CGI laid over 35mm images scanned into a computer. Once this decision was made, it was then decided to shoot new elements for the stormtroopers in the desert, and resurrect the lost Jabba the Hutt scene with Harrison Ford. Searching the vaults revealed that the OCN for the Jabba sequence was gone. The only thing they could find was a work print of the scene, complete with edits and editorial markings on the film (grease pencil indications of dissolves, etc). So they scanned the rough cut into the computer, did repair work digitally, then added CGI Jabba over the top of the human stand-in. The point of all this is that the OCN for the 77 version of Star Wars still exists. The "OCN" of the SE is actually a new negative printed out in '97 from the digitally repaired scan of the OCN from '77 with CGI additions. In fact, they made several OCNs of this version of the movie, and struck theatrical prints from them, which essentially made every 35mm print of the SE 2 generations closer to the OCN since they skipped the inter-positive/inter-negative steps. In 2006 when the original versions of the first 3 movies were put on DVD in non-anamorphic widescreen, Lucasfilm's press comments clouded the issue because, in an effort to fend off angry fans, GL told vague half-truths about the original version not existing anymore, when in truth, it's just that the '77 OCN is in terrible shape and would need to be restored all over again for any anamorphic release. So, in conclusion, the 1977 OCN of Star Wars still exists. It's just in terrible shape.