Mattris

Other characters experienced visions and premonitions throughout the SW canon. As I noted, I was referring to only to the first six Saga films. No, I asked 'what was Vader's plan' and 'how exactly did things align for Vader'. No, I'm saying it was Vader's plan but the Force didn't help him directly. It eventually assisted Vader indirectly, but that was only due to Boba Fett's critical contribution. I also wouldn't say 'the Force wanted Vader to catch Luke'. It just gave Luke a heads-up of what would happen to his friends, had he tried to help them or not. I don't think the Force is villainous, but it does have a will. I expect peoples' midi-chlorians alone will not facilitate long-term success or victory. What fundamentals would those be?

Logically, Yoda wasn't surprised that Luke had experienced the 'Force vision' because he had also experienced them. Subsequent Star Wars volumes confirmed this to be true. The canon also reveals that visions and premonitions were common among the Jedi of the Old Republic but became almost nonexistent by the time of the Saga. Based on the first six Saga films, it was implied this was the case. (Only Anakin and Luke were shown to have experienced them.) Generally speaking, very little about the Force was understood by the Jedi or anyone; beings simply took advantage of what it could offer. Some were more responsible and selfless than others. It hasn't been confirmed why the Force does what it does... but I expect it will be.

Not true. Most do not answer my questions with goodwill, and most don't answer at all, except with dismissive/sarcastic/snide comments. My intention was seeing if anyone could offer clarification and explanations for what happened in these movies and the overall Star Wars story. It's rare that anyone but me offers more than would a child. There's a difference between 'seeing' and understanding. Your summary and explanation of Vader's plan is the first to note that "Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force". This was made clear in the prequels and subsequent Star Wars volumes, content which shows that premonitions and visions can also be experienced by people (or non-humans) who are not Jedi. Since the Force works through all things - each of which can be affected uniquely - it would be short-sighted to consider 'receiving Force visions' as a personal ability. In context with what happened to Anakin Skywalker previous in the story, Darth Vader expected Luke Skywalker to sense the peril of his family/friends through the Force because that was his personal experience. Anakin's premonitions of future events - notably, the suffering of his mother and death of his wife - actually happened. As per Vader's plan, all that was required was a timeline in which he would be able to capture and torture Han, Leia, and Chewie. Curiously, he couldn't manage it alone. (The Force was clearly not with him.) Not even a sector of fully-staffed Imperial Star Destroyers helped him. It eventually took bounty hunters. One came through in short order. Once Vader knew where the Falcon was headed, the Force took care of the rest.

Only because you haven't realized the implications of my observations. Rest assured, Lucasfilm expects better from you and the rest of their audience. I'm not here to entertain you. I post here to demonstrate how much of the Star Wars story remains to be shown, told, and confirmed... elements of the narrative and lore that must be included in the story for it to be complete, much less, 'good'. I also share theories, logical reasoning, and relevant bits from Star Wars volumes not limited to the films. My track record and foundation is solid. (Can't say the same for anyone else here.) We've had decades to analyze these films. I'm merely scratching the surface. (Trust me, there's much beneath it.) For the second act of Empire, the Falcon and her crew eluded Darth Vader and his Imperial underlings, all of whom had proven themselves utterly incompetent to locate and capture a ship without a functioning hyperdrive. Luke went about his Jedi training with Yoda. The plot didn't progress until Vader sunk so low as to hire bounty hunters for the job. "There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon." In short order, Boba Fett was able to accomplish what Darth Vader and the Imperial Fleet could not. "Most impressive." (There's a good reason for why things transpired this way, but that's a good story... for another time.) In the very next scene, Luke saw a vision of the future through the Force: his friends in pain at a city in the clouds. The next scene shows the Falcon arriving set at Cloud City. Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO are soon put through the wringer. As I hinted previously, the reason Darth Vader expected Luke at Cloud City is provided in the narrative context. It needn't be limited to TESB alone... or even the entire OT. Thoughts? Last call...

Yes, it absolutely does matter when Luke saw the vision because it affects causation. Too soon, and the necessary character development would not have been achieved. (For instance, if Luke had seen he vision 5 minutes after he had arrived on Dagobah, he would have left his training and gotten to Cloud City days/weeks early.) Luke didn't experience the vision "at the same time as Han and Leia's torture". He experienced it before Han, Leia, and Chewie had even reached Cloud City. Why do you continue to ignore this critical fact? Grasping the reality of the timeline seems to be your critical misunderstanding. How did Vader "possibly know" that Luke could - and would - experience a vision of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City... before Vader had even done the torturing? Your summary of what happened: ... is not what occurred. It was not an if/then scenario. Do you think Vader just hoped Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future at a specific time in the past... and that Luke would accept it as a future that would likely come to pass... and that he would come to Cloud City at the ideal time? Seriously? No, you have clearly disregarded the film's context. Crucially, you don't seem to have realized that Vader was incompetent throughout the film. (Throughout the entire OT, actually.)

Technically, yes. But the carbon-freezing element wasn't the focus of the so-called trap, just the intended way by which "young Skywalker" would have been taken away. I paid attention enough to notice that Vader captured and tortured the Falcon's crew after Luke had already left Dagobah. The movie showed that Luke saw the vision before Han, Leia, and Chewie had even set foot on Cloud City! So how exactly did Vader 'make sure Luke would come to Cloud City'? Did he just assume that Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future... and at a specific time in the past? "Through The Force, Things You Will See. Other Places. The Future, The Past. Old Friends Long Gone." How did Yoda know what Luke saw had been the future? How did he know it wasn't the past or present? If the vision just happened so that Luke would finally go to the next location, I would consider it poor storytelling. How did Vader bait Luke? Based on the timeline of events, truly think about it. What is your explanation? I don't know how you can be satisfied. Based solely on what was portrayed in the film, what happened regarding Vader's plan is presented as a mystery.

The carbon-freezing chamber wasn't really part of the trap. It was just the mechanism by which Vader intended to "freeze Skywalker for his journey to the Emperor". Luke temporarily fell for it (pun intended) but emerged to continue the duel. Let's recap Luke Skywalker's experience in Episode V: Advised to go to Dagobah ("a slimy mudhole"), Luke abandoned his Jedi training on a whim... specifically, after experiencing a vision of his friends in pain and suffering. Ironically, Luke needed to be saved by them... after he risked death by long fall... after losing a hand and learning a shocking truth, one that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided not to reveal to him, for some reason. I supposed the question that should come up more in Star Wars fan circles: How did Darth Vader know to expect Luke at Cloud City, much less, at that specific time? I think there's a logical explanation that wasn't spoon-fed. (Hint: Context is needed.) Sorry, I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you, either.

What's "interesting" is that the Falcon was likely the only Rebel ship leaving Hoth without a functional hyperdrive. How (in)convenient! "No lightspeed?" - Princess Leia "It's not my fault" - Han Solo Probes, the Imperial Fleet, Vader's own powers. Until bounty hunters were hired, nothing was getting the job done. What was the trap? It was never a matter of the Falcon being "easier to find/notice". The point was that it was the only ship Vader wanted. Apparently his trap had something to do with it. "He doesn't want you at all. He's after somebody... uh, Skywalker." - Lando Calrissian Yet Vader and the Imperial Fleet lost the Falcon time after time... a ship without hyperdrive. Idiots! Not so fast. I want to know how you think the main story of The Empire Strikes Back came together... a film that many - if not, most - Star Wars fans consider the best of the series. Surely you've made sense of it. Again, what makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained? Was Vader's so-called 'trap' contingent on Luke experiencing a specific Force vision... before Vader had actually captured the Falcon's crew? As shown in the film, Boba Fett located the Falcon. It was insinuated that Fett reported its probable destination to Vader, who proceeded ahead to Bespin.

Why do you think it was written with Vader obsessively going after the Falcon instead Luke? What makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained at all... or would see such a specific Force vision?

It was Vader's idea to turn Luke to the Dark Side. He even made an offer to Luke that "together" they could "destroy The Emperor" and "rule the galaxy as father and son." For someone with such grand intentions, why was Vader obsessed with finding the Millennium Falcon... instead of pursuing Luke directly?

If that's the only quote you have to go on, I think you have some work to do. To "most Star Wars fans", any deeper substance and valuable meaning of the story has seemingly passed them by. So far, Star Wars seems to teach only that 'Family/friends/aligned peoples should stick together to defeat/kill/destroy bad guys. Love wins... at least until history repeats itself in the next generation, at which time further defeating/killing/destroying becomes necessary.' The majority of fans have hive-mind assumed so much about the story that, when applied to an overall assessment, simply doesn't make sense of it. (This is especially true once the Saga expanded to six episodes. Even more so with nine in the bag.) Not only are the fans seemingly unaware of what they don't know, they don't seem to care that the story could be something else than they thought it was. It simply hasn't occurred to them what the story must tell so that it actually makes sense. If the Star Wars story does eventually include these critically-important things, perhaps it can be a story worthy of remembrance. One such assumption: After betraying Han and Leia, Lando revealed to them that "Lord Vader set a trap" for Luke. What exactly was the trap?

Those quotes are also among the most important of the grander Star Wars story.

Yes, Kathleen Kennedy said, "... George initially set out to do with a kind of three act saga with these three trilogies". But what comes next won't be 'backtracking'. Along with the rest of the Star Wars fandom, you'll realize that the story was always heading in this direction. Those responsible made sure to say and do enough to keep their audience distracted from their real plans. Things, such as? You should also know that combinations of words yield meaning. (That's how authors can convey grander intent and substance within their stories... even across multiple volumes, across multiple decades.) Perhaps you'd be better served to assess the words of Star Wars instead of criticizing mine. Did you get anything out of the prequels? The backstory provided by Obi-Wan should have be cautionary to Luke Skywalker and the audience. But no, the movies clearly showed that Luke became a hero from humble beginnings. And a few years after he started his journey, he was victorious! What an inspirational story! Honestly, I don't think you've made sense of anything. Mark my words, so many assumptions will come back to haunt you.

The first two trilogies do not tell a complete story, only a lame one with dozens of things about the lore, history, and plots left unexplained. You are aware of what they are, right? It's a story being told. The words of which it's comprised tell the story. Words have definitions. Much can be garnered from these facts. Though one might have to pay attention and actually think. The OT? Perhaps you can make sense of why farmboy Luke Skywalker ended up being taught by two failures in their ways of the Force/Jedi... and ended up (seemingly) winning after not really learning anything. Anyone is free to approach Star Wars in this manner. But those doing so will be denying reality... and the rest of the story. From my point of view, that might be the most ironic statement in this entire topic. I was just wondering if any here could cite any confirmed George Lucas lies. I'm still waiting...

"Never more than twelve." - Kino Loy, from Andor I think some of you are putting far too much stock in these 'drafts', works that did not have to be made public, nor are they canon. What did George Lucas say that confirms he "lied"? And with what evidence can it be proven?

As already demonstrated, it's those like you who completely ignore factual evidence and the literal contents of the stories in favor of underestimations, assumptions, and an utter lack of logical reasoning. Only direct contradictions made by Lucas could lead one to believe that he has "lied". These statements would need to be examined on a case-by-case basis. What are they again?

He already did. And so did you. (And it has nothing to do my posts here.) What do you think he lied about? What are your sources?

You're clearly not thinking much at all. I said: "Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively." You responded: "Only musically, you mean." I meant both, as I said.

Palpatine offered Kylo "a new Empire". Scoring the shots of the Imperial Star Destroyers with the Imperial March makes sense.

Then you made a mistake to correct me. I meant what I said. The fact is, I've been referencing "the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively" for years now. I'm noticing and sharing with you what you missed. It's all I'm willing to tell you. Can you blame me? Why should I tell you more? I am not implying that "Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection". Could the themes for Yoda and Qui-Gon have a connection to the Force theme that you haven't noticed? Nothing seems to be "obvious" to those who doubt, dismiss, and underestimate so much... those like yourself. What you couldn't have told me is that, in Star Wars, all of the characters and groups were certain they were doing the right thing. They were all wrong. Rest assured, I'm very real. I expect those who come here to troll me will think of me when it happens. That would be funny. Regardless of what Lucasfilm does, I'll never let go of the theories I've substantiated. So bad... because? No, I don't believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies and beyond. I suspect George Lucas told his composer enough so that he could do his job properly, that is, compose the scores and themes so that things would make sense in 'the end'. My thinking is that the presence of such a prominent theme for Darth Vader in the original film would have been detrimental to its content and overall tone... what certainly felt like the start of a Hero's Journey. In the sequel, the obsession and menace of Vader is made that much more impactful with his new, memorable theme. As we know, the prequels showed the transformation of Anakin into Vader. The theme we knew had to feature.

Oh, I know you aren't. But I can offer you a bit of insight into the examples you noted. In this story, the Force works through all things, including people like Anakin and Rose. Finn's Confession & Talks of Podracing: "He was meant to help you." March of the Resistance & March of the Trade Federation: Marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing. (They really weren't.) These connections were intentional, though I do not share your specific theories. Narratively, as well. What narrative elements do you think I perceive that weren't planned or are not present throughout the sequels or the Saga, in general? It's not like others aren't being pompous, dismissive, and condescending toward me. Am I not allowed to respond in kind? The facts and evidence support my position, theories, and overall assessment regarding the state of Star Wars. I was right before about some pretty major things. Logically, I'll continue to be proven right. I think I'll stay and watch it all play out.

Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively. I hope you're enjoying the few 'laughs'. Looking back, you'll eventually realize that I knew what you didn't: All things in this story are connected in some way... some things/characters more strongly than others.

Statements like that are vague and dismissive of these very real musical connections, connections that link directly to how the story unfolded. They're much more than 'similar'. All of them considered, they formulate strong evidence of deliberate design... evidence that there was a plan for the sequel trilogy.

First of all, elements (musical or narratively) "more obvious in the film" to you than others is not a relevant to the overall interpretation of the story and its score. Everything counts, whether you noticed it or not. You're saying that John Williams 'covered his bases and happened to get lucky by the end'? He was told basically nothing by the Star Wars writers and decided to guess where the characters/story might go, film-to-film, incorporating specific inter-related musical elements into multiple themes and cues throughout the sequel trilogy... all of which can be tied to The Emperor's Theme in multiple ways. The trilogy concludes with Palpatine taking credit for a great many things. And you think it was all happenstance? What an absurd theory to mask your underestimation and ignorance! The simplest explanation is that there was always a plan, one told to John Williams so he could do his job properly. Perhaps because that was the intent. Regarding my interpretation of Star Wars - supported by factual/canonical evidence - I have no weakness. Yes, other 'findings' include the contents of the musical scores and the literary sources from which George Lucas drew inspiration.

I see it as too many notes in a row to be merely 'poetic'. All things considered -namely, the other musical references and inter-relatedness among the themes for Palpatine, Kylo Ren, and Rey... given meaning by the progression of the story; knowing and appreciating the proven mastery and skill of John Williams - the deliberate nature of this musical connection couldn't be more obvious to me. Another example: Snoke's music in TFA and TLJ was all but identical to the music for the opera scene in ROTS, a scene in which Palpatine spoke of creating life and cheating death. Snoke was revealed to have been a creation of Palpatine. This, of course, after The Emperor's Theme was played note-for-note as Snoke tortured Rey in TLJ. Thoughts? It was a risk that paid off. Lucas wanted to be able to fund his growing business and produce his story more freely. He succeeded unconventionally. Regarding George Lucas' plan for Star Wars, you seem to have taken into account only what was published about it and what the man said publicly... and have assumed a great many things based only on these findings. Careful not to confuse them with fact, his true intentions, or the insight into the story that can be garnered from its literal words.