Mattris

The fact that Kylo Ren's Theme starts with five notes in a row from the decades-established theme for The Emperor doesn't mean the two themes 'share a similar vocabulary'... nor is Kylo's Theme a 'variation' of The Emperor's Theme. It's directly constructed from it. The two themes are also orchestrated quite differently, with The Emperor's Theme almost exclusively utilizing a male chorus and Kylo Ren's Theme utilizing French horns. Speaking of facts, Kylo Ren was never was a Sith, although he was manipulated by The Emperor himself. What a happy coincidence that the 2015 music aligns so perfectly with the 2019 story!

The two themes being "the same music" wouldn't prove what? Variations of what?

The establishing bass note is carried over from the Emperor's theme. In C minor, it would be a C.

"If money is all that you ask for, that's what you'll receive." ― Princess Leia "Persistence without insight will lead to the same outcome." ― The Mandalorian Armorer @JTW, you do know by now that everything you've been saying in response to me is an assumption, right? If Star Wars was made for money, then why did George Lucas take such a small fee for directing his film? He could have produced Star Wars films throughout the 16 years between ROTJ and TPM. The logical conclusion is that he was more concerned about the story and the technology that would be innovated to present it in the way he wanted. To back up your assessment of Star Wars, let's summarize: - You've presented no real evidence. - You've shared no intriguing insight. - You've stated no facts. - You've quoted nothing from the films, their screenplays, novelizations, or the rest of the official Star Wars canon. - You think Star Wars was primarily made for money and still is. - You've interpreted every installment of the story as a toddler would and think it's a lame, unoriginal story. (With magic powers, good intentions, and violence, the good guys beat the bad guys. The End.) - You've dismissed two full trilogies as part of the core story, if not entirely. - You haven't acknowledged any of my evidence as intriguing... or my theories that make better sense of the grander story, some theories of which were confirmed in TROS. - You haven't admitted that my story progression logic is 100% sound, especially after the prequels confirmed that the Jedi and Republic were ignorant and powerless to prevent their downfall... even though we knew they fell in the opening act of the original film. How can you think you're right or anywhere close to the truth? I hope it's not because there are many people who think like you. Pride and ignorance are never a good thing, especially when combined. My final statement before I sign off with you: As much as I think you've gotten wrong about Star Wars, you are among its primary intended audience.

This is not a case of two themes being "similar", Chen. I'd argue they're not even in the same vein. The Emperor's Theme is truly scary and brooding. Kylo's is more like an announcement. Kylo's Theme also doesn't have that many notes to begin with. Of all the combinations of notes John Williams could have chosen for the relatively short 10-note theme, he decided to start it with five notes in a row from THE EMPEROR'S THEME. Anyone who acknowledges the skill of John Williams but assumes this connection wasn't intentional is in a state of denial, especially after Episode IX revealed that Palpatine had been seducing Ben Solo for his entire life. You rationalize that there could have been other Yoda-like beings on Dagobah because Kenobi - the other secluded space wizard - also lived far from others?

Irony.

Wrong. A story must continue if it's not finished. Assuming that the story was over after the IV-VI characters learned nothing of significance beyond the failures of the previous generation (I-III) - is quite naive. 'The good guys killed the bad guys and will make a better Jedi Order and Republic this time.' As they say, doing the same thing but expecting different results is the definition of insanity. The sequel trilogy showed that history repeated itself, as it will once again... Most here are being at least two of the following: unreasonable, lazy, gullible It's actually five notes... and not the only connection I made among these themes, which are interlinked in multiple ways, obvious to anyone with musical inclination. It's clear to me that these connections are 100% intentional by JW because he was told of the characters' relatedness. These musical connections are supported by the literal evidence from the story itself, excerpts that I posted years ago that date back to the OT. What reason(s) do you have to not increase your odds?

I've shared enough for any reasonable person to be intrigued. After my Emperor Palpatine theories were proven right, providing a mountain of evidence isn't necessary to prove I'm on the right track. Why do you think Star Wars isn't a Hero's Journey? Could it be a Hero's Journey - or a variation of one - that hasn't finished? And have you proven anything, Chen? What do you think I have assumed? You can't even accept that the Star Wars Saga didn't end with Episode VI, nor admit why the story had to continue.

Why do you think it isn't? I'm just saying that if Star Wars is a Hero's Journey then we have not seen the story's end. (It wouldn't even be close.)

Again, George Lucas said Star Wars is "an old story told in a new way"... a combination of various sources of inspiration. Being fully "original" is not the mark of good art or storytelling. There's nothing new under the sun. What really matters is how you use the tools and information at hand.

If Star Wars is centered around Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey, then its story has not been completed... not by Anakin, Luke, Ben Solo, or Rey. Further evidence that it's not over yet.

If only it were. The fact is, your reasoning here is entirely absent of logic and evidence. Adults should be more rational than children, but it's not always the case. What's there to argue? I'm presenting evidence and facts. Whether you think these things mean anything is up to the individual. Reasonable might say, 'Those observations are interesting, especially in totality. You could be onto something. Let's see where it leads.' Saying, 'You are delusional! It's a kid's movie!' is unreasonable, especially considering you brought absolutely nothing to the table in the way of logic or evidence. Even though my conclusions, if accurate, would breathe new life into Star Wars, it seems you don't want the brand/story to be something better, something actually beneficial to its audience. I hope you don't want me to be wrong just so you aren't. That wouldn't be very 'adult' of you. By George Lucas' very words, Star Wars was not created to be 'escapist entertainment'. It made it to help people learn valuable life lessons through a mythological story. The fairytale setting was a means to an end, opening the door for young people to be attracted to the story. The story was specifically designed not to be preachy. Diminishing Star Wars as "a space soap opera" does nothing for you. Are soap operas for kids? Is this soap opera appropriate for kids because it's set in a galaxy far, far away... even though it contains some exceedingly deep elements like betrayal, moral conflict, torture, gruesome deaths, and entire planets destroyed? Saying 'Star Wars is for kids' is a cop out. When you finally realize that it was so much more - as George Lucas and me tried to warn you - you really shouldn't be surprised. But something tells me you will be... you will be. "How embarrassing." - Master Yoda On the contrary, has it occurred to you?

What would you consider to be 'wasted time'? And you know this... how? Still no evidence to support your position. You're not actually 'arguing' with me. You're just ignoring my astute observations... observations that fly in the face of your massive assumption that Star Wars is of little or no substance when there's a wall of evidence that indicates otherwise. My Star Wars story progression logic is 100% sound. (But I doubt you'll ever admit it... or even address it.) What does 'just a kid’s movie' even mean? Can't kid's movies offer valuable life lessons? As far as messaging goes, what do you think Star Wars is saying to its audience? I suspect there are people on this forum that I've at least intrigued. But they dare not share their intrigue publicly for risk of being deemed a crazy conspiracy theorist sympathizer! It's the only way to understand Star Wars properly.

No other Star Wars theme features rising/falling minor thirds as much as Rey's Theme. (It's the backbone of the theme.) When the other musical references are taken into account - namely that Kylo's Theme was lifted from multiple notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme - the intended connection should be obvious to anyone with musical inclination. Dies Irae can be found in the harmony of the B-section... and multiple other themes and cues throughout the Saga. Then of course there's the literal canon connections/clues, of which there are almost too many to count. (In this thread, I posted a few dozen, or so.) But it's all mere coincidence, right? What's true? On what evidence are you basing your conclusions? Laughing and contradiction is a pathetic response to the substance and intrigue I've presented. The hive mind of ignorance here is truly astounding... in a sad way. Your conclusions are based on assumptions and a surface-level assessment of a mythological fairytale parable. And you think you're right about the story... that you're showing your boy Mattris the error of his ways? Ya gonna show Lucasfilm, too? Better keep at it, then! Some people learn and grow. Others, not so much. The story never needed salvaging. That's just it: I do 'know so much more about Star Wars than others', as I'm continually proving. I keep asking people what Star Wars is about to show how the popular assessment doesn't make sense. But no one has the guts to type it out. Is it because you think it's overly simple and lame? If so, then why do you care to argue with someone about a silly kid's movie series? Why do you think George Lucas wrote the story with the Jedi and Republic having failed (revealed at the beginning of the OT, shown in the PT)... then in the next generation (the end of the OT), it's implied that the Jedi and Republic will return... Happily Ever After? During their adventures, the featured 'goodies' didn't learn any significant or do anything different. (Luke was taught by failures.) So why would the same institutions yield different results? George Lucas played his audience for fools, confirmed when Lucasfilm showed the audience what they should have expected: The (rebuilt) Jedi and Republic fell once again, with the surviving Jedi (Luke) and Republic leader (Leia) having been outcast/secluded, not unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi from the previous generation. Turns out, the well-intentioned characters were as naive as the Star Wars audience and they paid for it. Lucas didn't say 'true'. He said it's "an old story told in a new way". Seriously, I'm still asking you for evidence. And you still haven't submitted anything. Be specific about the issues you have with the sequel trilogy. Your continual avoidance to name anything is not a good look. Your assumption that "It doesn’t mean anything, it shouldn’t mean anything. It’s supposed to entertain, that’s all." runs contrary to what George Lucas said about the intent of his work. And that's a fact. My astute observations prove that I'm not the one here who is 'blind'. You will learn that the delusion was yours. (You just don't know it yet.)

In 1999, George Lucas said that Star Wars is "an old story told in a new way."

You're free to think that. But even in isolation, coincidence is not the name of John Williams game. The fact is, my factual observations are pilling up as they relate to the Star Wars story and its musical score. Assumption that so many intriguing, eyebrow-raising things are not by design is simply illogical. I already have provided references. I'm not going though all that again, if only for time. What subjective opinions or unfounded claims? Rey's Theme starts with three notes in a row from The Force Theme, is based in its same chordal structure, contains rising/falling minor thirds like The Emperor's Theme, and concludes with similar note intervals to Darth Vader's Theme. The relevance to my argument is that this is indication of a plan for the character, of which John Williams was told before he composed Rey's Theme as well as others throughout the Saga. You'll find out. I could say more, but I don't want to ruin the surprise. And Star Wars is "a simple adventure story", right? Keep thinking like that, and see where it leads you. That's an assumption. What evidence do you have? Entertainment is frivolous. Star Wars should mean something, or we're wasting our time. (But just to reiterate, I'm not waiting for anything or anyone to make it meaningful to me.) I'm saying the story should be interpreted based on its literal content, assessed in totality... not film-to-film, assuming that you always understood it properly. (Such would be the approach of a stubborn child.)

First and foremost, Star Wars is a story to be interpreted. Doing so based in 'facts' alone is impossible. But it is a fact that George Lucas described his work - and its intent - in such a way that many of the Star Wars audience have disregarded. He said Star Wars is a "modern fairytale" with foundations in mythology, a story intended to convey universal truths and valuable life lessons... while most people view Star Wars as escapism, a fun/lame spectacle featuring action/adventure elements wherein family and friends eventually beat the bad guys. What a massive difference in these two approaches. Unlike you, I've already presented facts and relevant literal canon excerpts that demonstrate my credibility. Saying we're "in the same boat" is very disingenuous of you. One more fact. Many had doubts as to Rey's affinity to use the Force so well and so easily. The fact is, her musical theme was derived from the Force Theme. What that means, if anything, is up to the audience. Nope. Like many of my contributions here, this single fact was unknown to all here until I posted it. Star Wars fans are ignorant of so much, yet think they are justified to complain and make grandiose claims and massive assumptions. Mark my words, they will soon be hit with a harsh reality.

I'm not looking for respect. I'm showing that all here are clueless and state assumptions as fact. I was asked for facts. That's one more. And for what purpose do you think John Williams does this? Do you think he had a reason to pull multiple notes in a row from previous Star Wars themes to compose the themes for Rey and Kylo Ren? Could it be because John Williams was told something about the plan for those characters? My assessments have nothing to do with my opinions. (It's the other way around.) I base my assessment of Star Wars beyond a surface level interpretation of the story... how George Lucas has advised repeatedly. How about you, @Demodex? "If only saying it would make it so." - Grand Moff Tarkin

It is obvious. Shame so many people assumed that Episode VII was just a lazy remake of the original film when it was factually the continuation of the same story, just as the prequels showed what happened previously in the same story. I said, "For starters". In this thread, I estimate I've made more factual statements and presented more factual observations than everyone else here combined.

And you want me to concede "they're just making things up on the go" but have no factual/substantive evidence to support that conclusion.

Based on the evidence I've seen - primarily, the literal words of the Star Wars canon - I've concluded that Lucasfilm is not making up the narrative, themes, lore, and character archetypes... you know, those little things that comprise a story. You took the position that "they're just making things up on the go". If you don't care, then why are you here? I spent hundreds of post years ago presenting evidence and logic in this very topic. There's no need to get into it again, though I will have more to say about it. For starters, Episode VII marked the continuation of the the Saga. (It was not a lazy re-boot of the story, as so many have concluded.) The logical conclusions extrapolated from this fact are wide-reaching. Years on from these experiences - the jobs of which they were hired - what do these Lucasfilm contractors/employees stand to gain by saying these kinds of things, whether they're true or not. Why would they keep bring up such self-incrimination? Nah, just enjoying showing so many people that they really have no clue what they're talking about. Hasn't any? Give me a break, @Demodex. I brought up the fact that the first five notes of Kylo's Theme are five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme. That's in addition to the stuff in Rey Theme, including this one that I don't think I've mentioned before: Notes 10-12 of The Force Theme are the first three notes of Rey's Theme

Obviously, I've concluded differently... especially as it pertains to the main story, themes, lore, and character archetypes... elements that have remained consistent from the very beginning (1976). Just because because you - and many others - have concluded something to be (obviously!) true doesn't mean that it is so. The fact that 'your side' continually fails to produce facts or substantive evidence to support your assumptions means that you are almost certainly wrong.

Do you not understand why there may be inconsistencies or contradictions in the Star Wars canon? Reacting 'sleepily' only indicates that you are lazy and/or don't want to admit that your perceived issues have been addressed by high-ups at Lucasfilm. What in the comics or video games has 'gone against' whatever J.J. Abrams or others have produced? Pablo Hidalgo has said on multiple occasions that Star Wars is a story being told. Each volume/episode of this story is told from a certain point of view, not objective fact or as if it were reality. The audience is not a fly on the wall. (The unreliable narrator comes to mind.)

It seems you haven't read the information from the links I provided. Here they are again: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

Not only does that post from DarthDementous not 'thoroughly debunk' Lucasfilm's stated intent, it contains at least one false statement: "they had the ambition to have everything that was created, be it video game or novel, from now on to be on the same level of canon as the movies." Should any inconsistencies or direct contradictions be found in the various canon media, the Saga movies always take president.