Mattris

How do you know those things if they are not known? The better question is, did you really spend time coming up with those silly things because you don't know what is not known about Star Wars? If you don't play along, then I can only conclude that, like I supposed, you don't know what you don't know. How about this: Do you know what definitively is known about Star Wars?

Are my pointed follow-up question to your claims too much for you?

Yes, one of those Lucasfilm meetings from around 2010 - headed by George Lucas - was recorded and released. How could Lucas' "detailed" and "quite narrow" answers be "detrimental"? How would these answers be "a likely factor in the Star Wars fatigue"? Could it be that the reason so many people are 'fatigued' with Star Wars is they don't understand it? Most of the audience doesn't consider the story to be an allegory, but it is. The work contains a mysterious lore of which the audience is clueless. Yet so many of the audience proclaim in their echo chambers that 'The Star Wars writers don't understand Star Wars! Things have taken a disastrous turn for the worse!' No wonder so many people are disenchanted. They're shockingly ignorant! Perhaps they tried to make the most money possible, at least considering the project they were tasked with. The film had many things going against it, not least of which the fact that it came out just 6 months after TLJ... and didn't feature Harrison Ford or his likeness. Oh, well. I'm sure makers of Solo were paid well for their work.

Are you not aware of their controversial positions/projects? I'm not saying that I think Episode IX is evidence that Disney/Lucasfilm are incompetent. I'm saying that the film was specifically made to make it seem - to the ignorant audience for which it was made - that Disney/Lucasfilm were even more incompetent than they already seemed to be. It turned out to be just further distraction from the reality of it all... because the fans got it wrong again. The film was carefully crafted to throw off the audience, yet provide clues to the reality of it all. But Lucasfilm are aware of their audience's point of view... and many steps ahead of them. Miles ahead, actually. The Terminator films were not conceived as a trilogy... or as a single, grander story that required being told across multiple/many films. The same goes for Back to the Future, Rambo, and Rocky. What "lack of consistency within the canon"? 'Things going south somewhere' is not assured. Star Wars could be 'going exactly the way it was supposed to go.' Lucas was smart enough to control his company and the Star Wars IP all the way until he handed it off to a trusted associate of many decades. For every reason in the world, if there was a plan, then Kathleen Kennedy would make sure it was seen through to the end. That's probably why she's still president of Lucasfilm after over a decade in charge. "It's not over yet." In my response to you, I made points, presented logical explanations, and asked you a question. Why don't respond to what I said? I'm not 'assuming' anything. My conclusions about what drives Lucasfilm make perfect sense... because my Star Wars assessment and theories are based on its literal canon in totality - not opinions based on a child-like (escapism!) interpretation of the story... but only the films and some of the shows, like most fans. As I said, the Star Wars audience doesn't know what they don't know. I'm betting you don't either. But you can prove me wrong. Do you know what isn't known about Star Wars? I challenge you to list some of those things.

If that were the case, then every single thing Disney did would be based on the intent to achieve maximum profit. But that's not how Disney operates. You know this, right? A company this large has agendas to pursue and messaging to push... controversial positions/projects that are not desired or approved by the majority of (potential) customers. These kinds of things do not boost their bottom line. This would explain Disney's massive lay-offs numbers just reported. Or do you think they're trying to make the most money - but after a century into their business - don't know how to do it?

It seems I'm not allowed to talk about Star Wars anywhere else on these Forums. So here I am.

Why bother? Even if they don't care about Star Wars, why would I risk this person sharing the theory and taking the credit?

Until a little over 4 years ago, I was shortsighted and ignorant. I have since learned a great many things. On the contrary, Disney/Lucasfilm do care what the audience thinks. However, making the most money in the short term - by giving the audience what they want/expect is not their primary objective... telling the story is. Generally speaking, Star Wars fans are passionate, opinionated, and have high expectations for the expansive work that is Star Wars. But so many fans have turned away from the franchise, whether it be because they didn't get what they wanted/expected from the prequels, sequels, or the shows. Yes, because TROS served its purpose in a variety of ways. How about you? What do you think happened in it? Probably. In a 1999 interview, George Lucas said they he didn't want to be making Star Wars films and shows for the rest of his life. He wanted to focus on things that were more important to him, like his family. So with Kathleen Kennedy put in charge first, he sold Lucasfilm to Disney so the Saga could be completed in his lifetime. I don't discount the fact that Lucas repeatedly stated that he was stabbed in the back, with Bob Iger saying as much. Everybody here knows I don't think any such thing happened... for so many reasons. For instance, George Lucas was photographed visiting at least one set of a Star Wars show, laughing alongside Kathleen Kennedy. This footage made it to a Disney+ behind-the-scenes program. No way in the world the man would have gone back to the very people who betrayed him - the ones who had apparently thrown his sequel treatments in the garbage - with him having left the company under bad terms. No f---ing way. The EU volumes gave Lucasfilm an opportunity to brainstorm and ultimately, distract... for the real continuation of the story was yet to come. Yes, I have built this up, haven't I? But I never said it was just one "big reveal" coming. I'll tell you now, there will be many shocking twists strewn throughout the Final Trilogy. In Episode X alone, I expect there will be many. Apart from the supporting cast/characters, what wasn't revealed? More info has come out since SWC. ('Rey isn't the lead') And if you believe reliable reports, the writer/producer of this film was changed shortly before its official announcement. All things considered, what's happening here is crazy. THERE IS ALREADY WAY TOO MUCH CONTROVERSY. Of course there is... because it's all a distraction. What didn't the sequels show/tell about the state of the galaxy? One scene that would have helped to explain matters was a deleted scene in TFA in which Leia sent her liaison to Hosnian Prime as another warning and appeal to the New Republic government about the seriousness of the threat that was First Order. IMO, this scene should have been included. In the finished film, we only see the liaison on a balcony seconds before the destruction of the entire system of planets. The reality is, the grander story of Star Wars is more complex and expansive than can be included in the films alone. Want more information and context? Checking out the other volumes of canon is required. If nothing else, all fans should read the film novelizations, which contain extra scenes, expanded dialog, character thoughts, exposition, etc. Lucasfilm can't help the fans (fanatics?) who are too prideful or lazy to stop being willfully ignorant. (Seems they prefer to complain instead.) You have no idea what was happening behind the scenes... what's still happening. The written canon (released before TLJ) proves that Palpatine's return was imminent. You only heard that Abrams was returning when they told the world. In any case... From the time he was publicly announced as coming back, JJ had over a year to write and over a year to make the film two films. You're free to stop posting claims of which you have no supporting evidence. Unless you have done your research, the things you say are mere contradiction to my informed conclusions.

What I concluded is "really funny" to you because you can't fathom Lucasfilm (and now along with Disney) intended to throw off their audience... that they could have managed to do this... that they did do it... that so many people collaborated on something truly special... and through a planned story - and everything involving its production and marketing - succeeded. What do you think was sabotaged about IX? The part of the story it had to tell was told competently, and it had to end as Episode VI ended. ("It's likely poetry; they rhyme.") It is simply obvious. Lucasfilm understands Star Wars. They hired writers who understand Star Wars. Using George Lucas' story as the basis, the Saga continued and will continue. From the very beginning, the Star Wars story has been made and presented in accordance with a deliberate tone and perspective. Lucasfilm knows what the fans think, want, and expect from Star Wars. But it's not Lucasfilm's duty to give the fans what they want or expect. On the contrary, Lucasfilm are giving them what they don't expect... all in the name of good storytelling, of course. Remember, good stories may give you what they want. The best stories will give you what you didn't know you wanted. You underestimate the power of surprise. The Star Wars audience doesn't know what they don't know. They think they understand Star Wars well enough... that it's the writers of 'the new Lucasfilm' who have lost the plot. The truth is, the audience never knew the plot... or Lucasfilm's plan to keep them distracted and assuming. I'd say Kathleen Kennedy is like Admiral Holdo, in that the plan was not hers, but was the plan of her superior and mentor. In TLJ, the plan was Leia's. Concerning Star Wars, it's George Lucas. Oh, you have no idea how right you are, Chen. Why do you think the writers of the sequels didn't have an idea about the state of the galaxy? The events of TFA made it clear, starting with the opening scroll. Lucasfilm wants their audience to think they're incompetent because they have something special planned but don't want to show their strong hand just yet. I expect that Star Wars fans' high expectations will be unexpectedly exceeded. Why did Kathleen Kennedy say this? She did not have to mention the progress of the script. She said so much about this film. Why say anything except 'Rey will return'?

I say that most "leaks" are not leaks. They are bits of 'info' Lucasfilm intentionally releases to the public to suit their intended purpose. I say this because they have proved themselves more than capable of keeping big secrets. A movie being divisive does not mean things 'went south'. It's not the job of the storytellers to please the audience - or make the most money possible - with each episode or volume of Star Wars. It's their job to tell their story. I already posted more than enough years ago. If the film isn't even finished being written, how can anyone know what Rey's specific role is relative to another character? Rey is not the lead? Why would something like this be made up? If this is real, how could it possibly have leaked?

I'd like to know what you think "went south". What evidence supports your position? Let me remind you that at Star Wars Celebration 2019 - shortly after the Episode IX "Roll it... again" teaser was shown - Kathleen Kennedy was asked directly if bringing back Emperor Palpatine was part of the plan from the beginning. She confirmed this was the case. No, the simplest explanation is that nothing has gone south with Star Wars. Everything is proceeding as planned. What's happening couldn't be clearer to me: Lucasfilm don't want the masses to figure out what they've been doing. So they adhere to a marketing/presentation strategy to keep their secrets. The audience becomes distracted by rumors, opinions, assumptions, and group think. All the unexpected, unwanted things coming out of Star Wars as of late are perceived as general incompetency... that Lucasfilm doesn't know or care what the fans want. This is a mistaken assessment of what really happening. This is how Lucasfilm are so successful in what they're doing... what they have always been doing. But there's far more substance than distraction. The vast majority of these clues and elements of foreshadowing can be found within the Star Wars canon, starting with the 1976 film novelization. All told, the content of these volumes prove there was always a plan for Star Wars. Though, one must have a certain point of view to decode it all. Consistent with the "effective Jedi trap", the Star Wars audience is currently on the far side of the galaxy so as not to interfere with their real plans. So that by the time the audience realizes what has happened, it will be already too late.

Some pages back, I shared my logic process regarding how I came to the conclusion that Episode X had already been filmed. Shall I copy-paste it for you? A couple of weeks ago, Lucasfilm confirmed that a post-TROS movie is coming and revealed several things about it, things they certainly didn't need to: Rey will feature, what she will be doing, when its set, etc. Few - other than me - expected such an announcement in the near future, so no one would have faulted Lucasfilm for withholding all information about it. This includes revealing that it's not even done being written. If that's the truth or a lie, why tell this to the world? Now, there is a rumor/report/leak that "Rey isn't the lead" in the film. Thoughts? You'll see what it is. And remember, if this is Episode X, there will be two more films to complete the trilogy... and Saga... truly, this time. Occam's Razor states that, when presented with two explanations, the more-simple explanation is likely the correct one. Regarding Star Wars, the most simple explanation is that there was always a plan, and that plan is still on. I commend your progress. Why is Episode X having already been made (alongside IX) a bridge too far for you? It's possible that the rest of you can be right in the same vein that it's possible that I can be struck by lightning when there is no storm present.

I'll make it easier for you, @Demodex. Here are the remaining points and questions that you haven't addressed. My intent is to move our debate/discussion forward because repeating the same points over and over - of which you ignore, dismiss, or doubt their legitimacy - is pointless. Firstly, what you think happened in the sequel trilogy, especially it relates to the previous two trilogies? Can you think of any reason that Lucasfilm would want to look like idiots? Speaking of a plan... In his published Star Wars: Fascinating Facts book, Pablo Hidalgo (the head of the Lucasfilm Story Group) reveals that the primary elements for the story of the sequel trilogy came from George Lucas. Do you believe him? So certain are you? With such strong conviction, you should probably have a better idea than "if they bring Palps back again". Why do you think so much was revealed about this 'Rey movie'? Why do you think Kathleen Kennedy said that it wasn't even done being written? That's not it at all. What happening here is that they want you to think there wasn't a master plan for the future. (You even said it yourself: 'Everybody knows this.' Yes, everybody knows what they were told by the very people they don't like/trust... and nothing else.) What is illogical about my reasoning? Doubting Lucasfilm's competence and skill to deceive and distract is not counter evidence. You keep saying this. But the fact is, I've put forth a credible explanation for my conclusions more times than I probably should have. What I'm saying does make sense if Lucasfilm wants their audience to think they're incompetent. No plan for the trilogy AND the writer/director of the finale of the Saga was replaced after a script had already been written, two years after he had been hired? You suspect nothing is amiss here? Incompetence only? With stakes this high? All this after the (perceived) upheaval of the Saga that was The Last Jedi? If you think there's nothing fishy about the so-called 'firing of Colin Trevorrow from IX', you should "know or care about the details of Trevorrow's leaks". Just like with Star Wars in general, the details make all the difference. Ignoring details - especially if you're already sure you're right about something - will not make you informed or correct. (It actually means you're more likely to be wrong.) Concerning the truth of all this, you'll eventually realize that so many clues were hidden in plain sight. But the masses just couldn't drop their pride enough to fathom that Lucasfilm intended to trick their audience and succeeded with flying colors. I seriously doubt that. Chris Terrio, JJ's co-writer on TROS, said that 'it was Kathleen Kennedy's intention for the Saga to have been telling one story'. We know for a fact that Palpatine was the 'big bad' of the previous two trilogies. Do you think they temporarily forgot this little detail and had to fire Trevorrow because he forgot too? All evidence considered, the explanation seems obvious to me: Lucasfilm wants this audience to keep running with (false) narratives, especially that the Emperor's return wasn't planned because there was no plan at all for the trilogy. In doing so, they got their audience to assume so much that isn't so. All this because they are looking for maximum shock value with what comes next. Finally, do you concede that it's possible that my explanation is the correct one? Please address everything I've said here. If you respond like you normally do (doubt, saying there's no reason Lucasfilm would do this, calling me crazy, etc.), we will have wasted even more of our time.

"everything I've ever heard" Exactly. For a long while, the filmmakers just couldn't stop saying - or at the very least, implying - that there was no plan for the third Star Wars Saga trilogy, supposedly its conclusion. What reason could there have been to do this... for years? Perhaps they could have simply confirmed there was a plan when people asked them during the last decade? The logical answer to all this: You hear only what Lucasfilm wants you to know... because they intend to trick their audience... because they have something special planned. Saying things is cheap. The evidence you've taken into account is a child-like interpretation of the films alone, as well as trust in the very people that are consistently making themselves look incompetent in their production of a Star Wars Saga trilogy and other Star Wars works. On the other hand, I have made my conclusions, theories, and predictions based on primary evidence: the literal words of the official volumes of the Star Wars stories and its music. I am a critical reader/viewer/listener and have approached the story on its own terms as an allegory. You should concern yourself with you own comprehension of Star Wars, @Demodex. I can assure you, mine is just fine. I will now disengage from you until you have addressed every single one of my questions and points that you ignored on this page.

The fact that you state these kinds of things as "fact" indicates of your lack of logic on this topic. Things you think are true - or are reported by others but not 100% provable and confirmed - are not "fact". It is only a fact that 'those things have been reported and/or assumed to be true.'

What about them do you think was not planned? Please be specific.

Movie trilogies that are telling one story, not three separate stories? Which ones? What about a third movie trilogy as part of one story? Do you think that Star Wars was/is not "set on a certain path"?

The basis for your conclusion that "The sequel trilogy was not planned in advance" is your opinion of it? What do you think happened in these movies, especially as they relate to the previous Episodes? Please answer this. Yes, it would have changed everything. If they had said 'Palps was going to return' from the beginning of the trilogy, people would have been thinking about ways he could have been involved in the plots. But they didn't announce his return. This caused you (and so many people) to assume his return wasn't planned. And in doing so, they got you to assume so much that isn't so. Nope. My theories are 100% logical, based on facts and canon excerpts. It's your dismissal of these important things that is illogical, especially considering I was proven right about something so major. It does if Lucasfilm wants their audience to think they're (even more) incompetent. No plan for the trilogy AND the writer/director of the finale of the Saga was replaced after a script had already been written, two years after he had been hired? You suspect nothing is amiss here? Incompetence only? With stakes this high? All this after the (perceived) upheaval of the Saga that was The Last Jedi? If you think there's nothing fishy about the so-called 'firing of Colin Trevorrow from IX', you should "know or care about the details of Trevorrow's leaks". Just like with Star Wars in general, the details make all the difference. Ignoring details - especially if you're already sure you're right about something - will not make you informed or correct. (It actually means you're more likely to be wrong.) Concerning the truth of all this, you'll eventually realize that so many clues were hidden in plain sight. But you just couldn't drop your pride enough to fathom that they intended to tricked you and succeeded with flying colors. It's possible that Lucasfilm did not tell Colin Trevorrow about their plan, that he was hired as a patsy. It's more likely that they informed him of the grand plan but instructed him to pre-produce an Episode IX without Emperor Palpatine... because Executive Producer JJ Abrams would be taking care of that. Hiring someone to write a script and create some production art isn't that expensive. Disney/Lucasfilm can afford it, especially if it supports their cause. Trevorrow was busy working on his Jurassic World films. Looking back on it, it was kind of silly to think he was going to helm the end of a Star Wars trilogy in the midst of all that. Like the 'over ambitious conspiracy theory' that Emperor Palpatine would feature in Episode IX, having been responsible for a great many things? Who saw that one coming, having shown how it could have been planned and intended? What's absurd is that so many people don't see the writing on the wall: IT'S A TRAP!!! What you should be questioning is how/why the script 'leaked', along with its production art... on the same day. This is also absurd. Better in what way?

May I ask, what is the primary source of your Star Wars disenchantment? I have reading comprehension problems? It's ironic. There is evidence that "Trevorrow's script was fake" if you approach and considers matters in context. For instance, do you think the script was 'leaked'... that Mr. Trevorrow did not want it to be made public? How about the associated production art and score slates that went public on the same day? The same logic applies to the sequel trilogy being planned in advance and Episode X being already filmed. There simply too many pieces of evidence that, all told, point to the logical conclusion any sequel to IX would have been filmed concurrently. Such evidence can be found in the canon, as well things the cast/crew have stated... one thing Daisy Ridley said, in particular. Ignoring my questions and points will get you nowhere, @Demodex. But there is a way to prove which of is right: Watch what Lucasfilm does. They are making things happen. I am watching them happen. And you will be like, 'What happened?' Dead bodies referred to as "it" shouldn't be screaming, should they? This is but a drop in the bucket of the reality of all this. They usually only lie by omission. 'Surprise' is the name of their game. My my point of view, the shows are filled with clues that foreshadow what's coming. If so, it makes sense that Lucasfilm are cranking out "dozens of SW TV shows" now because they want to include as much as they can in the canon that proves they knew what they were doing. Because at some point - probably sooner than later - things will never look same ever again. Bad endings? Who said anything about endings? We only have to wait for the next Episode! Clearly some are more patient, informed, and hopeful than others.

Nothing? I quoted many of the film and canon excerpts that I used to correctly predict how Emperor Palpatine's involvement would make sense of everything in TFA and TLJ. I can't think of anything else that could have explained why the Saga should have continued past ROTJ. Can you? That's because it was planned, why George Lucas approved of Dark Empire. JJ Abrams' favorite scene from the prequels is 'The Opera Scene'. I see now that it foreshadowed much to happen and be revealed. And I'll say again, the ROTS novelization is a gold mine of Star Wars insight... and far superior to the film, from my point of view, of course.

Quote it here. I think she only lied when she implied there wasn't a plan for the sequel trilogy when she said, "We're making this up as we go." (of course, borrowing a line from Raiders.) Pablo Hidalgo confirmed that the primary elements for the story of the sequels came from George Lucas. Lucasfilm are "not that competent" starting when, exactly? Making two films would explain why they were 'rushed'. Think about it. Why admit publicly you're rushed? Perhaps it was a clue that they're trying to tell us what's really happening in (not so) subtle ways... so that when they finally reveal what they've been up to all this time, it will all make sense... and they can take credit for having not destroyed Star Wars. Makes sense to me, especially when the literal words of the stories are taken into consideration.

Why not? How competent are they? Better yet, who are "they"?

Based on all sorts of evidence, my reasoning was very logical, yes. Have you have forgotten that Lucasfilm are very good at keeping secrets? Can you not grant the (very real) possibility that they intended to trick the masses into thinking so many things that are not true... that something big is coming that you did not expect? By getting you to think that, they have you right where they want you. Rushed because they had to complete two films. From the time he was officially announced as the new writer/director of Episode IX, JJ Abrams and his team had an entire year to write and an entire year to produce. Yes. You keep missing things. Look into what Kathleen Kennedy said during SWC 2023. You can even quote it here, if you want to talk about it.

Yes, you are wrong. Most movies do not have some sort of "scavenger hunt", a specific plot... as opposed to the general plot element of 'discovery'. Why do you think so much was revealed about this 'Rey movie'? How could Lucasfilm advantage themselves by announcing that it wasn't even done being written? A new threat that Rey and gang are gonna try and stop? How exciting! Are they gonna be successful? Will there be a sequel? How did you come up with this amazing theory? Could you give us a sample of your findings, as I did years ago? We will see. I'm looking forward to it. Across dozens of posts that contained evidence and logical reasoning, I already told you. Remember, JJ had his editing team with him in Africa while they were shooting IX. It's like they were rushed, or something. I agree. It's already been several years. Because my wacky theories are irresistible.

I didn't make that claim. I just pointed out that you inserted "scavenger hunt" into the story tropes as you attempted to make a point. I think the film will have a similar urgency as IX, perhaps with less of a (perceived) threat. How did IX turn out? Ok then. What if I added that the gang was seeking to salvage or reactivate something... like, say, a scavenger would. Sure. Though Star Wars has a bit of deeper meaning than "any adventure movie ever".