Marcus

I'm not sure I quite understand what "academically thinking through" is meant to convey. I certainly spend a great deal of time contemplating and mulling and obsessing over details, but "academic" seems to imply an intellectual aloofness that is the exact opposite of the kind of performer-conscious writing I'm advocating. The philosophy is really quite simple: Good writing tends to yield good, often enthusiastic, performances. I often dream about very spontaneous performance scenarios. More often than not, they entail my being catastrophically behind schedule, where I end up giving simple cue cards to the orchestra, in a sort of quasi improvisation under my direction. When I wake up, I'm usually grateful for the sheltered and slow process of articulating as lovingly and conscientiously as I can music as well as I can write it. And that process is still an active one not only during rehearsals, but often even after a premiere, as time gives one a better perspective of one's work.

Blume, I have a feeling you're actually creating more of a false dichotomy than unraveling whatever may presently exist (if any) . I haven't yet entered a rehearsal without the anticipation of changing -improving- something on the spot. That's merely par for the course. I certainly don't differ from Williams (or most other professional colleagues) in that respect. Whatever gave you any idea to the contrary?

(Still tangential, but here goes:) I see - and respect - where you're coming from. And I don't disagree. My point was rather centered on my own perception of the orchestra as a living, breathing organism. To me, the orchestra represents community. I think of it not only as a pool of available sounds, but as a collective of different voices. Different personalities. Different people. What "bothers" me in some of the pieces posted in this thread, is not the simplicity or "uneventfulness" of the individual parts, but rather the lack of real orchestral thinking. Back in the day, there used to be this prejudice against organists-turned-composers that they would think of the orchestra in terms of stops. And I think I harbor a similar prejudice against what I feel is a tendency to think of the orchestra as patches or samples. I get the idea of approaching the orchestra as "pure sound". I don't think it's particularly new (I have a hunch that Wagner saw it similarly), and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I just tend to be more attracted to orchestral music that treats the medium with more curiosity.

I agree. "Generational" is inaccurate, and probably also misses the target. Rather, it's cultural: A symptom of taste and (p)references. My suspicion is that my own compositional experience, and my tendency to view the orchestra as something very concrete and performer-driven, leaves me less responsive to what I feel is generally a more abstract approach.

I never meant to imply that I see game music as a "lesser" genre. On the contrary, I have only enthusiasm for any medium that may serve as a canvas for music, and in turn be part of its evolution. Which is why I really wanted to be impressed by Wintory's concert piece, as well as the many samples of game scoring in this thread. I'm sure there's great music written for games, and I'm sorry to not feel more excited about what I've heard so far.

I'm still waiting for an epiphany with these composers... Perhaps it's a generational thing. Or perhaps it's got something to do with my never being much exposed to video games post the earliest Nintendo incarnations of the 80s and early 90s. To me, most of it just sounds a bit flat and wishy-washy. I don't think the material is particularly strong or exciting, and the writing seems "patchy". I really wanted to be impressed with the Wintory piece, but I feel he sabotages its structure by the suddenness of the choral element. Some of the writing is good (winds/some brass parts) , some of it not so good (strings/other brass parts). A lot of it actually sounds sampled, or as if composed for samples. I'm sure that needn't be a bad thing, but to my ears, it adds to the overall impression of a composer not entirely in touch with his medium. Then again, maybe I'm just old.

What a wonderful suite! Some lovely extensions, and a beautiful presentation of what I find to be truly endearing thematic material, and simply a masterful score.

From a technical point of view, Williams is second to none. The only living composer I can think of whose chops rival his, would perhaps be Rodion Shchedrin. Craft is difficult to compare across different time periods, as aesthetics change, and with them, technical demands. Still, I wouldn't for a second hesitate to rank him as equal in ability and significance to composers such as Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky or Mendelssohn. Historically, I offer the following hypothetical views of Williams ca. 2075: -(pragmatic) As one of the most influential figures to the first few generations of 21st Century composers, essentially shaping much of their perception of the orchestra, and of harmony. -(pop-culturally affectionate) As one of the most beloved composers of all time, albeit mostly for his most iconic tunes (much like how we view Tchaikovsky now). -(dystopic) As the last Great Composer in Western history, and one of the few composers of that tradition to have practiced his craft in the early years of a post-cultural society...

Great! Thank you so much for this!

@Jilal Interesting! I guess ears work differently. But with an A# as the lowest note, I guess that would be a sixth at the bottom, not a seventh (or were you referring to B as "tonic"?). Still, I guess one could hear a cadential pull from the C and the D encircling the C#. But to me, the A#, F# and C# lend just a bit too much gravity to B. In fact, the whole chord could be written as an V on I sonority, actually F#b9#913addb6/B -now isn't that a nice chord!- (implying the presence of a lower octave B, of course).

I hear the TPM "shriek chord" as (lower sonority) essentially stacked 5ths (B-F#-C#), with double leading tones (A#, G), and the upper structure as an embellishment, with C and D leading down to the B and C#, and the G# as a "brightening" of the lower G. For all its chromatic saturation, I hear it as essentially 'B centric'. Hindemith would claim it is because of the fifths...

I think TheUlyssian sums it up perfectly. But to reiterate: The BFG main theme (friendship theme) serves as a theme for both, despite not being a character theme for Sophie per se.

The theme I refer to as 'Sophie's Theme' is heard in track 2 at 02.50. I think of it as musically depicting her loneliness, so one could also refer to it as a 'loneliness theme', or an 'orphan theme' (the theme you're talking about is simply the B theme of the 'Sophie&BFG Relationship Theme'). The main theme -being a relationship theme- also 'subs' for her, but this film isn't so much about Sophie, as it's about Sophie and the BFG. Again, I don't think we should take these leitmotifs too literally.

I think it's both/neither: It's not a character theme per se, but rather a relationship theme. The theme serves them both (though I think the main inspiration for it is the BFG, or the idea of this benevolent giant comforting the orphaned Sophie).

I have a feeling some of these themes defy traditional leitmotivic identification. Rather, Williams seems to have gone all "sonata form" in his thematic conceptions this time around, and designed whole thematic groups, rather than simply themes. -There's the main theme (BFG theme), which consists of an A and a B theme, although the B theme also seems to have its own 'B theme' of sorts -Then there's the music for Giant Country and the giants, which includes the jagged juxtaposed minor thirds, as well as two waltz themes; all of these are subjected to such transformations as to at times become almost entirely new motifs. 'Fleshlumpeater' also belongs to this group of themes, as does 'Frolic' -The Dream Country music has three main melodic ideas, a broadly lyrical theme with often lydian inflections, and the somnambulistic lullaby heard twice (once in track 4, for vibes, celeste and synth, and then again in track 10 at ca 02.45 as an oboe solo), although the piano theme heard in track 15 may also be seen as an offshoot from this theme, as well as the fast paced scherzino. Additionally, there are textures that may also be seen as endemic to this section of the score (I've already mentioned the flutes) And I suppose the Nightmare theme (which in itself consists of several motifs) could also be seen as belonging to this thematic group -The 'solo themes' (themes that don't belong to the aforementioned groups) are, as far as I can tell, only the Queen's theme and Sophie's theme (not the BFG one, but the solitary piano melody first heard in track 2)

Yes, that's the waltz I was referring to (although I suspect it's more a 'traveling theme' for the BFG's gait than a theme for Giant Country). Another waltz is the theme some refer to as the 'Fury theme', as it consists of minor chord arpeggios with an added 6th. It is of course entirely possible to view the two as the A and B themes of the same waltz...

To each his own, I guess... "Dream Jars" is one of my absolute favorite cues from 'BFG'. It's absolutely fabulous writing, and to me, a very exciting piece of music!

The theme gives prominence to the first, fifth and sixth degrees of a major scale, or if you will, and in the key of Bb, Bb-F-G. As composers, we're seldom thrown a bone like this, where the titular acronym allows itself to be literally spelled out in musical terms. I'm certain the opportunity wasn't lost on Williams, who rather than using it as a strict self-contained motto, opted to embed it into a more lyrical melody. The theme itself in most of its more complete renditions (where both A and B themes are heard, or at least implied) is played out as a minuet (which is a graceful 18th century dance form in an even 3/4, without the schwung of a waltz). We have it on good authority that Williams thinks of this score as a kind of collection of dances, and I think he meant that rather more literally than many might realize, as it consists of minuets, waltzes, and even a galop!

Heather Clark (principal) Jennifer Olson Benjamin Smolen Geri Rotella I suppose it depends on one's opinion of 'Hook' (a score I have tremendous admiration for)? Another way I could put it, is that it's the greatest film score penned since TFA...

I completely respect that it isn't your kind of thing. And I don't know that it needs to be said, but as you've already said it, I will have to add that 'BFG' is, from a purely technical point of view, easily one of Williams' most sophisticated scores yet. It's closer in terms of writing to his concert music than ever, yet I feel the same sense of value to every single note and nuance as, say, 'Lincoln'. Though notey, every note matters, there's very little filler. In that sense, and although I detest ranking (I prefer to view the works of all artists as one continuous developing arc), I probably already hold this score in higher regard than, say, 'Hook'.

I've had fun transcribing odd bits and pieces of the score today. And I have to repeat myself: This really is a remarkable score. I can't for the life of me understand the negative reaction among some of the posters here, but then again, I never understood the initial negativity towards Williams' TFA score either. The main theme (which I think was, rather charmingly, conceived as a menuet, as heard in "Building Trust", and again in the end titles) is so beautifully constructed, its harmonic structure actually relatively unique among Williams' themes for its quaint and sweetly nostalgic sounding secondary dominants. I know I've said it before, but I also love how it sort of spells out 'BFG' (1-5-6; there's also an inversion of this in some of the B theme variations). For all its energy and brilliance, there's also a restraint to the writing befitting a mature master, and yet there's a freshness to the textural and timbral ideas that just baffles me. I really hope the more compositionally minded people on here continue to explore this score for all of the many rich lessons it has to offer...

To paraphrase Twin Peaks: "The flutes are not what they seem". This score is a virtual concerto grosso for flute section and orchestra, and I think the flutes themselves represent a sort of "conceptual leitmotif", and my hunch is that they are sonoric dreams (much the same way the celesta was a musical shorthand for magic in the Potter scores),

At the very least, the score is one of the likeliest of candidates for a nomination, so I don't see why they wouldn't?

Ah! And can you similarly deduce how old Verdi was when he wrote "Falstaff" (which could be the operatic autumn blossom I was thinking of...)?

I think Williams really had fun writing this. And it sure sounds like he had energy to spend; he's flexing his musical muscles quite considerably. I forget at what age Verdi wrote "Aida", but this score must surely be one of the most spirited ever penned by an 84 year old composer! Here's to many more!