Eric_JWFAN

I thought my first sentence made it clear that I watched the film. And I always watch with an open mind. But I know good scoring talent when I see it, and this wasn't it. Sorry.

Back when I saw Joker in the theater I absolutely hated the score, almost as much as I hated Dunkirk. After it won the Golden Globe last night, I decided to give it a second chance and so I listened to the entire OST by itself first thing when I got up this morning. Oy. This is a terrible excuse for a film score. No variety throughout the entire thing, zero melody, zero creativity with the orchestration, no rhythmic movement whatsoever, it's basically a bunch of time-wasting long notes sustained in the strings with some added sound design type stuff. Hans Zimmer would be proud. I swear there are student composers with better writing ability than this. But of course, my non-composer friends will all tell me it was an INCREDIBLE soundtrack and that I just don't "get it". I've learned that film composers who write like this and take this easy way out (with long 1-note string cues and sound design gimmicks) aren't doing so because they think it's the right artistic choice, but rather because they don't have the proper compositional ability to write anything better. And the sad thing is, we now have to spend the next two months hearing about what a masterpiece this score is and how this woman from Iceland is actually a musical genius. I really hate these award shows.

I don't remember "dealing" with you either. I'm not on here very often, but when I am I have good conversations with others. Sorry if my opinion on Zimmer hurt your feelings. Haughty pretense? Just posting my opinion of the film and score. Isn't that the purpose of this thread?

Ha, sorry. Haven't been on in a while. I'll try to change it.

I'll be happy to, if you can explain what that means. :-)

I know I'm late to the thread, but I thought the movie was disappointing and the score was Zimmer at his absolute laziest. I keep holding out hope that he'll start making some sort of effort to compose real music, but I guess he has no reason to at this point. And frankly I don't think he's even comfortable with the idea anymore. The direction of film music continues to go downhill, and Zimmer (and his success among the masses) is a big reason why. Yeah you kids get off my lawn..

Anyone?

I am in southern China and yesterday spent the day at a new theme park called Chimelong Ocean Kingdom. The place is utterly incredible and home to the largest aquarium in the world. One of the things that stood out was the soundtrack played throughout the park which was full of sweeping, orchestral music and very well put together. Does anyone know who composed this music and if it's available somewhere?

I was at Royal Albert Hall in June seeing Romeo and Juliet and these were given out.

Whatever you say, maestro. Now, I don't think either Sharky or myself have said anything to precipitate that sort of snarky name-calling. And calling someone's opinion ignorant is a compliment? And Maestro is hardly snarky. Sheesh lots of sensitive people here.

Whatever you say, maestro.

Sorry I'm not giving you what you want to hear. But I'm happy to keep debating this. I'm just being honest. You asked this on a John Williams message board, what do you expect exactly? Maybe you'll get responses more to your liking on a Brian Eno board. Also please explain what you mean by melodic writing is similar to minimalism. All I'd like to hear is a well-reasoned opinion. I don't care whether or not it's in accordance with mine. Also, I didn't ask anything, so.... Maybe it was a bit harsh, but I feel my opinion was well reasoned. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sorry I'm not giving you what you want to hear. But I'm happy to keep debating this. I'm just being honest. You asked this on a John Williams message board, what do you expect exactly? Maybe you'll get responses more to your liking on a Brian Eno board. Also please explain what you mean by melodic writing is similar to minimalism.

Probably. It's far from the finest cue in Williams's ouvre, but is an effective pastiche of Stravinsky and Ravel in the 1910s. I'm sure Reich is familiar with the Firebird Suite and Le Valse, and could do write a similar cue in the same fin de siècle style. We are talking about a guy who went to Julliard and studied with Vincent Perisichetti, Darius Millaud and Luciano Motherfucking Berio who wrote the ultimate pastiche piece with his Sinfonia. You think Reich could write the Arrival of Tink/Flight to Neverland? Lol... sorry, but I think you're very wrong on that. Either that, or Reich has hidden some truly remarkable talent to himself all this time. And what does where they went to college have to do with it? Do you know how many people went to Juilliard?

Explain what you mean by melodic writing is similar to minimalism. Like I alluded to earlier, Williams has always had a self-deprecating style to him, and he's always made it seem like what he does is no big deal, so I'm not surprised at anything he says that compliments another person or musical style. Not only does he never imply a single negative thing about anyone or any musical style, he lauds them. No matter how simple the music may be. He's just really gracious and respectful, of pretty much everything really. Shoot just a few weeks ago at the Art of the Film Composer talks in LA he was practically asking for Gustavo Santaolalla's autograph. Williams shows respect for everyone and everything, and in interviews he goes out of his way to make it sound like these musicians are all on the same level as himself. It's always been that way with him. He has the craziest modesty/ability ratio I've ever seen.

Agreed. I'd love to know his definition of "ruined". I'd have no problem if Eno just said Williams is the anti-Eno. Fine, difference of style. But to say what he said in front of all those students and suggest that Williams ruined many good films, when JW branded the most famous film franchises in history and helped give the most successful director of all-time his identity, that's just stunning to me, and yes, smells of jealousy. BTW Sharky I did listen to the Reich. It's quite good, and again I can be very fond of minimalist music. You don't have to sell me on it. I'm just saying that it does not demand anywhere near the skill level of Williams' writing. Put it this way. Could Williams compose that Reich piece? Probably. As some have mentioned, he has flirted with some minimalist techniques. But turn it around and ask could Reich (or Eno) write The Arrival of Think and Flight to Neverland? Hells no. Someone earlier mentioned Less can be More. That can be true, but I'm talking pure chops here, not how it moves certain listeners. Some of Steve Roach's stuff I find exhilarating and it can "move" me even more than some Williams. Sure less can be more. But are the compositional demands anywhere near what is required in Williams' writing? Of course not.

Sorry, didn't mean to be "outrageous". :-) But I do believe in what I said, about the chops. It's not elitism. It's just knowing what takes enormous skill, and what doesn't. There's nothing wrong with Eno's music, it possesses some great moments, really cool atmospheres, sonic colors etc and I can enjoy it for what it is. But the technical chops required to write it is WAY below what is demanded in Williams' music. I mean it's not even close. It's funny you say "elitism" because Eno in that clip comes across as pretty darn elitist, while Williams has always publicly shown the highest regard for even the most questionable talents, graciously giving really nice compliments to extremely inferior composers, just to be nice. But back to the point, okay he probably did choose his style because he liked it and not because he tried/failed at symphonic composing. But from my experience, most of the minimalist composers I've met entered that genre because it was easier to learn, master, and (hopefully this won't sound offensive) "fake" their way through. Eno's very good at what he does, but generally speaking you can fake your way through an ambient album. You can't fake your way writing for a 70 piece orchestra, especially with Williams' musical language. Again not trying to be "outrageous", but when I hear someone of Eno's expertise say that Williams has "ruined many great films", that'll get a rise out of people. After all, this is a John Williams site.

Woww.... So I take it you write like Eno? No. What I meant is, if Brian had better compositional chops, he perhaps would've taken the path of a more of a traditional composer and written music on Williams' level. I don't want to be disresepctful to "minimalists", but most of them that I met throughout college and my professional life (including some rather well known ones) were in that genre mostly because they simply weren't good enough at things like traditional harmony, orchestration, voice leading, etc. It's just way more difficult to learn and master. Don't get me wrong, there's some really cool stuff to miminalist music, including a lot by Eno. But his comment is ridiculous, even in passing. It sounds like sour grapes to me. Or maybe it's ignorance, which would be shocking for someone of Eno's age and experience. I hope it's just jealousy. If it's not, my respect for him just dropped about twenty notches. It's okay though, I don't think I've listened to Music For Airports in like 20 years.

Those who are not talented enough to write like John Williams, end up writing like Brian Eno. I'm sure he'll eventually get over it.

How can anyone hear the Raiders march or anything from that movie and think E.T.?? Seriously the only thing these scores all have in common is their colorful orchestrations and overall elite quality.

According to this idiot. Check out the end if this review. http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9C0DEFDB143BF932A25755C0A964948260

Yes that is the end credits music I was talking about. I'm sure it has an actual name as it's heard during the film as well, and I'd really like to know because I have no clue why this music is in this movie. It sounds like the obligatory romance theme, but for who?? There's not really a romance in this movie, at least not one that is developed. Is it Tonto's theme? I sure hope not. Or is it just a general ode to the native Americans and the oppression they faced?? Whatever this music is, it sucks miserably. I swear it sounds like it was thrown together in 5 minutes. There is NEVER reason to compose music this slow and hollow for a film like this, especially the end credits of the Lone Freaking Ranger.

Sounds like Zimmer is scoring too many movies again. I'd have to agree with you!

Yes he did. And his tempi were painfully slow. And (slight spoiler alert)..... The entire final train scene is set to an arrangement of it. It had some questionable editing that I had a problem with. For example, that piece has very clear 8-bar phrases. When you subtract a bar or add a 9th one, it messes with it. If I was in charge of the music editing I would've sped up the damn tempo and maybe that would've allowed the music to fit better, rather than adding or subtracting bars. Not sure if this was explored, you'd have to think. He also plays around with the famous motif, expands on it, transfers it to a minor key, etc. There are some decent moments here, but nothing extraordinary. The most disappointing part of the score is the main theme which almost put me to sleep during the end credits. Probably the most uncreative, boring, stagnant theme I could ever imagine for a summer action flick like this.

I'm talking about a historical error. As in, it's 1869 and there's a concert band in the movie performing the Stars and Stripes Forever, a piece that was published in 1897.