Lucas/Williams Magic in Star Wars Prequels

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

There are several moments in the OT that, the first time you saw them, made you go, "hell yeah!" or "kickass!" or "that's so cool!" Here are a few examples (I'm guessing the OT has maybe 3-4 of these moments for each movie).

1. Luke in the trench "don't worry, I'm alright!" (ANH)

2. 2 TIE fighters smashing asteroid walls as Falcon escapes (ESB)

3. Falcon going through the flames as Death Star explodes (ROJ)

These moments are always very clever and accompanied by killer music. Obviously, these moments are less powerful each time you see them. But it's easy to remember them because, as a kid, the emotions rendered while seeing those scenes for the first time are permanently planted into my brain. My question here is 'what are these examples in the prequels?' These are a little more difficult to pinpoint, I suppose because I'm older now. (*no smart-ass remarks about 'uh, well maybe that's because they're not there haha'). As far as I remember, here is my list of most kick-ass moments, where Lucas and Williams' magic really shines, at least the first ones that come to mind:

TPM:

(Most of the Lucas magic IMO happens toward the end of this film)

1. the Gungan battle, where the droids walk through the shield and then the laserfire ricochets everywhere

2. Darth Maul using the Force to throw the whatever-it-is against the control to open the doors.

3. The red shield thingee that separates Maul from Qui-Gon, where Maul paces back and forth (there is no music here, but the lack thereof is more effective)--that stare is so bad-ass!

AOTC:

1. Droid disbursing the poisonous centipede things into Padme's room

2. The whole gritty second battle (outside the arena) on Geonosis, especially the laser blasts throught the cloud of dust--granted, the music issues aside!

3. Yoda vs. Dooku

ROTS:

1. The long opening shot, 2 fighters side-by-side (man I love that!!)

2. Yoda vs. Sidious, on the Chancellor's podium as it raises into the senate building

3. (edit) R2-D2 setting the droids on fire (not sure about music there)

Any others?

[tpigeon 3]

I'm sure I will think of some, but I love all of the ones you mentioned. My favorite moment in all of the Phantom Menace is during the battle when Maul uses the force on whatever it is to open the door. It's not just that, but right after, he's got this mean look on his face, he lets out some kind of growl, and before engaging in the fight again he spins his double edged light saber a few times. I just love that.

Ted

[Trent B 337]

The deal that Maul force throws to the control panel to open up the doors is actually the head of a battle droid.

There are a lot of moments from all 6 movies that make me go, "hell yeah!" or "kickass!" or "that's so cool!". Then again I love all 6 movies so it's really hard to choose which is the best.

All though I admit, I really love the Lightsaber fights the most. For me if I were to rank them this is how I would rank them...

#1: Maul, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon TPM

#2: Vader and Obi-Wan ROTS

#3: Yoda and Sidious ROTS

#4: Yoda and Dooku AOTC

#5: Luke and Vader ROTJ

#6: Luke and Vader ESB

#7: Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin ROTS

#8: Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin AOTC

#9: Vader and Obi-Wan ANH

[Romão 2,274]

The Ruminations scene in ROTS

Anything with Boga

The arena monsters, specially the acklay, in AOTC

The music and the ambiance when Nute Gunray says: "Guards, process them"

The scenes between Shmi and Qui-Gon

Every scene with Watto

[Red 75]

When Anakin goes before the council in TPM. Great foreshadowing.

[Romão 2,274]

I'm waiting for the obvious answer from the usual suspects: the end credits.

[deleted account 108]

(btw, there is no music in ROTS when r2 sets the droids on fire)

[Jim Ware 526]

Although the last part of The Elevator Scene would have underscored that scene.

[Trent B 337]

There's quite a bit of unused music that was cut from TPM and ROTS that is awesome. It sucks it was cut but hey that happens when making films. Somethings are kept, others are cut.

[Marcus 390]

For me, the only truly magical prequel moments are found in Williams' scores by themselves, and in imagining what could have been, -the films are simply too distracting and disappointing.

I never get a chance to care about or like any of the prequel-characters, and their motivation seems unclear or mundane at best. The environments all feel like blue- or green- screens, and I hate how stiff it all ends up looking. Notice in every still where we see a group of people together, they look completely dead, there's no movement, they all have the same lifeless pose. And though the dialogue of the OT was never very good, it was made believable, or at least likeable, by the larger-than-life characters.

But listening to Anakin's Theme makes it possible to still feel the magic that was Star Wars...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The desert fight between Maul and Qui-Gon is a great combination of music and visuals. Williams also has a great hand in the preceding farewell scene.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The only part of the prequels that got me to feel as happy and excited and feeling that Star Wars magic was the final duel in The Phantom Menace.

There are moments in it that rank up there with the best kick-ass moments of the original trilogy.

Unfortunately, the line is drawn there. Don't get me wrong, there were some decent kick-ass moments here and there in the prequels, but not those that have that Star Wars magic kick-ass.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The Force theme as Qui-Gon burns through the blast doors in the beginning works very well, too.

- Marc, who thinks TPM is probably the most "Star Wars" of the prequels, but is closer to Jedi than the original.

[Ollie 1,059]

uh uh uh...................ummm ummmm...................... hmmm hmmm.............................................

I guess the scene where Anakin says goodbye to his mom.

Some of the duel in TPM was ok.

[Seth 67]

I like the end of ROTS. I know it's rehash and has a somewhat lackluster performance, but that final Force theme statement is cyclical and I like it. But more than that I like the statement of Luke's theme that precedes it and the celesta progression that leads into the horn melody. As for the other prequels, nothing from AOTC really stands out, but a couple of things in TPM stick out-the horn line when the Queen's ship lands on Tatooine and that striking brass fanfare that comes right before the balcony scene with the Sith Lords.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

AOTC:  

1. Droid disbursing the poisonous centipede things into Padme's room  

2. The whole gritty second battle (outside the arena) on Geonosis, especially the laser blasts throught the cloud of dust--granted, the music issues aside!  

3. Yoda vs. Dooku

yoda dooku was just laughable.

All though I admit, I really love the Lightsaber fights the most. For me if I were to rank them this is how I would rank them...  

#1: Maul, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon TPM  

#2: Vader and Obi-Wan ROTS  

#3: Yoda and Sidious ROTS  

#4: Yoda and Dooku AOTC  

#5: Luke and Vader ROTJ  

#6: Luke and Vader ESB  

#7: Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin ROTS  

#8: Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin AOTC  

#9: Vader and Obi-Wan ANH

your youth is showing, the one you rank 9th is the best. Its the first, and its the only one that audiences thought wow, the rest all had a sense of haven't we've seen this before. But I guess you're easily impressed because the 12 minute battle between Ewen and Anakin is just absolutely awful, its like the energizer bunny commercial it goes on and on. What a waste of our time.

The only magic in the prequels is the score to TPM

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

yoda dooku was just laughable.  

Tell that to the entire capacity crowd who were cheering in the theatre 2 DAYS after AOTC came out when I saw it a second time. Not Star Wars geeks like me. Not exactly laughable.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't know I was laughing so hard but I think the audiences I saw it with were cheering with laughter.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

your youth is showing, the one you rank 9th is the best.  Its the first, and its the only one that audiences thought wow, the rest all had a sense of haven't we've seen this before.

Your age is showing. Nostalgia strikes again for you, Joe.

I'd rank the ESB duel higher. It's not just two guys batting sticks in a hallway. It's a fierce duel, it spreads across several environments, and has actual character development within it. Not too mention Vader looks scary as hell in those long lens shots.

RotS was okay, but went on for too long, and was shot too close.

On a purely technical level, I'd rank the TPM duel #1. Especially the McGregor/Park fight at the end. Great swordmanship from both. And the fish-eye lenses kick ass.

I don't know I was laughing so hard but I think the audiences I saw it with were cheering with laughter.

Yes, gut reaction among everyone was laughter when I saw it too. At first, you're laughing because you think it's great. But then you realize what it is you're actually watching. Yoda the ADD-Hedgehog on steroids.

[Red 75]

Exactly. That Yoda fight was horrible.

[Trent B 337]

My youth is "showing"? What the hell does that have to do with anything? So who cares how I ranked the saber fights (besides you obviously). That's how I like them, and I find the Obi-Wan Vader ANH fight the dullest. Well all know you're a Prequel hater Joe, so just drop it all ready, geezsus. :roll:

[JoeinAR 1,949]

My youth is "showing"? What the hell does that have to do with anything

it has to do with what I think of your choices, they are terrible. Im not a prequel hater, Im a bad movie hater, and thats what the prequels are, well AOTC is, and the others are mediocre at best.

[ridan 0]

I'd say I like the Yoda/Sidious duel the most. I could say TPM, but they didn't use the music that would have made it truly excellent. The only thing I thought wrong with the Y/S duel is the looping of Battle of the Heroes as they rise into the senate room.

[Morlock 11]

I thought that it was rather weak, mainly because of the unconvincing CGI Yoda. And the music was BoTH, a theme that has no place in that duel, and DoTF, unaltered and not leaving any lasting impression.

[ridan 0]

Well, the chorus in the DotF is a different recording, but yes, the orchestra is the same.

I think it worked though, especially when Yoda is fending off Sidious' Force-lightning.

That said...when I answered the question, I wasn't thinking about the OT. If taken all together, the Luke/Vader duel is the best. The atmosphere (with the darkness and the smoke, and the sabers interacting with it, etc.) is amAzing. The music (what's still there) is perfect. And overall, it just Works.

[SomeNewGuy 0]

Yoda vs. Sidious should have been a lot more than it was (musically and in the film). Rehashing cues from ESB and TPM didn't cut it. Not to mention the utter craptasticity of the writing (hell, even Ian McDiarmid sucked it up in that scene).

Good moments from the prequels:

Darth Maul/Qui-Gon desert fight. Quick, wordless, and to the point. Williams nails the scene.

Maul/Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon. Great choreography, no dialogue, and another win for Williams.

Clones/Star Destroyers at the end of AotC. Say what you want about the thematic choices or the replacement of Williams' original work, but I know that the hair on the back of my neck stood up when I first saw it.

RotS: Good God, the opening shot. I love it. Anakin's Dark Deeds--well done. Returning to the Lars homestead at the end was a very nice moment, as well.

Note that those scenes are entirely carried by JW's work and the visuals. I just wish Lucas had figured out 7 years ago that he's not a screenwriter.

[tpigeon 3]

My youth is "showing"? What the hell does that have to do with anything

it has to do with what I think of your choices, they are terrible. Im not a prequel hater, Im a bad movie hater, and thats what the prequels are, well AOTC is, and the others are mediocre at best.

Your arrogance is showing, oh old and wisened Joe.

Ted

[Morlock 11]

But he is right in this case. AoTC is a bad movie. RoTS is a mediocre movie.

[tpigeon 3]

Right in the sense that you agree with him? Hey, I've got no problem with voicing your opinions so long that you provide some kind of argument. My previous comment had more to do with the "Your youth shows" comment, combined with the very matter-of-fact statement of opinion without any kind of argument or backing up of the statement.

Ted

[robthehand 3]

Hmm, I think AotC is a terrible movie + Christopher Lee, while RotS is just a terrible movie. By that reckoning I guess I like AotC more, but I'd rather not see either again.

[batmanand 0]

I think the moment in AOTC when Anakin and Padme go out into the arena is underated, particularly with the music. It is genuinely one of the most emotional moments in the whole saga.

[Marcus 390]

AotC was an insult and a rape. I find it unwatchable.

As far as lightsaber duels go, I think Luke's duel with his father in RotJ is perhaps the most emotionally stirring, and the most beautifully scored.

[Ollie 1,059]

And there lies one of the problems.

The first 2 duels weren't scored, the dialogue, cinematography, acting and choreography made those scenes special.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Hmm, I think AotC is a terrible movie + Christopher Lee, while RotS is just a terrible movie. By that reckoning I guess I like AotC more, but I'd rather not see either again.

Why are you even on this thread then?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

George Lucas raped my childhood memories!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

And there lies one of the problems.

The first 2 duels weren't scored, the dialogue, cinematography, acting and choreography made those scenes special.

I dont find ANH's duel to be that great.

Choreography in ANH? Come on, the duel is rather corny. And even ben's death is not as emotional as it should.

ESB and ROTJ are much better.

and ESB's was scored and at least part of it still remains in the movie.

[Ollie 1,059]

Let me correct myself, The music was wisely edited out of TESB.

[tpigeon 3]

"Now I am the Master."

"Only the Master of Evil, Darth."

Now that's crisp dialogue - so much better than the prequels.

Ted

[Saxman717 22]

I think the moment in AOTC when Anakin and Padme go out into the arena is underated, particularly with the music. It is genuinely one of the most emotional moments in the whole saga.

?!?!?!?!?! Are you serious????? The music itself is rather nice, but HOLY COW, the ACTING?!?!??!?! That was the most forced, awkward, cliche, painful-to-watch profession of love I have ever seen ine my life!! It is so bad that it isn't even worth laughing at --- it is the most cringe-worthy of cringes, right behind the infamous "I WISH I could just WISH away my feelings"

(On a side note.....do you think that really was the dialogue, or do you think it was a mistake that nobody caught, and that the dialogue was really "WISH I could just WHISK away my feelings"?

[Ollie 1,059]

"Now I am the Master."  

"Only the Master of Evil, Darth."  

Now that's crisp dialogue - so much better than the prequels.  

Ted

It's handled much better by the actors.

[Saxman717 22]

"Now I am the Master."

"Only the Master of Evil, Darth."

Now that's crisp dialogue - so much better than the prequels.

Ted

I see nothing wrong with it, ***especially in the delivery****......delivery is KEY. There were plenty of lines in the OT that could've sucked and been cringe-worthy, had the actors sucked and delivered them poorly.

In a few instances, the actors even engaged themselves and challenged the director to change the line.....not sure how many of you heard about this, but in the Carbon Freezing scene with Han, it was originally supposed to be:

Leia: "I love you"

Han: "I love you too"

And Harrison Ford was like "WTF?!?!?!" ---- Han would never just repeat back what his woman said. He's more creative than that. So Harrison suggested

Han: "I know"

And that is what was put in the film. The actors and actresses of the prequels were cardboard cutout slaves of Lucas. What was in the script was what was delivered, and virtually no emphasis was given to believable delivery. I thin Lucas used the excuse "We're trying to make these movies very old-fashioned and serial action series-esque", or something along those lines. What a crock of $#@!

[Ollie 1,059]

Well said.

[Saxman717 22]

I'd have to watch the whole prequel trilogy over again, but the one scene that has always been in my memory was mentioned above....

The desert fight between Darth Maul and Qui Gon. It is this one scene that clicked with me the first, second, third.........100th time that I saw it. I love it. It is one of a very select few scenes in the trilogy that lives up to the many amazing moments of the original trilogy, where:

-awesome cinematography

-brilliant and creative leitmotif musical score

-great fight sequence

all blend seamlessly together to form a magical scene. That scene gets 4 stars in my book. The music in the scene is awesome, with Qui-gon's theme brilliantly used as an action cue, and wonderful supporting lines and background instrumentation.

The music from this scene is the kind of music that reminds me that Williams CAN still write as brilliantly (in the thematic, leitmotif, sense, and in the full, imaginative orchestration sense) as he did 20-30 years ago. I want ALL of his music to be as inventive as this! But, of course, every scene can't have music like this, or even every film. It did bum me out though, when such a style was abandoned for the most part in AOTC and some of ROTS (though it resurfaced a little in ROTS with some of the unreleased music, and in parts of Anakin vs. Obi-wan).

[tpigeon 3]

The delivery? Need I call attention to more examples from the Original Star Wars film for terrible delivery? Alec Guiness was spectacular, there's no doubts there, but everyone else in that film, including Harrison Ford had their fair share of bad deliveries. And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks that Star Wars is fine drama, but it's not. The characters are thinly drawn, much like the prequels, the dialogue sometimes atrocious, and the performances rather shallow. Mind you, I am speaking about Star Wars, not the Empire Strikes Back, which improves upon everything from the original and is far beyond the prequels.

Ted

[Saxman717 22]

The delivery? Need I call attention to more examples from the Original Star Wars film for terrible delivery? Alec Guiness was spectacular, there's no doubts there, but everyone else in that film, including Harrison Ford had their fair share of bad deliveries. And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks that Star Wars is fine drama, but it's not. The characters are thinly drawn, much like the prequels, the dialogue sometimes atrocious, and the performances rather shallow. Mind you, I am speaking about Star Wars, not the Empire Strikes Back, which improves upon everything from the original and is far beyond the prequels.

Ted

The magic of the original trilogy as a whole really took off due to the sheer perfection of Empire Strikes Back. Star Wars itself was an incredible success in large part due to its groundbreaking specal effects. It was also a fun adventure, and while some of the dialogue was borderline-weak, almost all of it was delivered quite well, and the weak parts were few and far between.

The prequels failed mainly due to four reasons:

1) It had about 30% well-delivered and well-written dialogue (5-10% regarding Hayden and Natalie Portman), as opposed to the at least 50-60% of Star Wars, 80-90% of Empire, and 60-70% of Jedi.

2) Considering the failure of the dialogue, unlike the original Star Wars, it did not have any truly ground-breaking special effects to WOW the audiences with, and relied way too heavily on CGI. This actually turned off many audience members, who felt like they were watching cartoons. With no ground-breaking technology to boast, the poor acting was exposed and had nothing to hide behind.

3) The overemphasis on commercialization and marketing......yes, this had plagued some of Return of the Jedi, and that received harsh criticism in its day, but for the PT, the entire trilogy was focused on marketing, and much of it was just blatant (like random shots of vehicles or characters, with weak cinematography, just to give them an excuse to make another action figure or toy vehicle).

4) Lucas's emperor-esque domination over the project, and stubbornness to adapt to the valid criticisms his films had received. He did everything the way he wanted to do them, regardless of whether it was a quality film or not. Is it a big mystery why Empire Strikes Back was such an awesome film and is heralded as a classic? Take a look at the name under the Director title. Lucas is a great storyteller. He is not a screenwriter. He is not a quality director.

[Hlao-roo 389]

As a loyal fan of the original trilogy, I can honestly say that Mark Hamill's performance in the first two films is a bit iffy at times. The climax of The Empire Strikes Back, in which Darth Vader makes his proclamation of paternity to an incredulous Luke Skywalker, has become the iconic scene of the series, yet it was very nearly ruined by Hamill, who does the requisite facial scrunching and vocal anguishing with limited success.

[Henry B 50]

I can't stand anything in the prequel trilogy involving Hayden Christensen. He is completely untrained... take this line from Revenge of the Sith, for example: "What did you say?" Christensen pronounces it as, "Whuhdid joo say?" When a film's actors can't even speak basic English correctly, my faith in it... wavers.

Another problem is Natalie Portman. She had a nice contralto voice in Episode I (though there was no inflection whatsoever in it), but her lines in the other prequels are uttered in delicate whimpers. You can bet she and Christensen were microphoned very aggressively.

Since this thread is about "prequel magic," however, I'll just point out Ewan MacGregor's performance in Revenge of the Sith. It was... good. It was actually good. There are a few points where he seems to be thinking, "what the hell is this?" but only the most ridiculous scenes are affected.

Episode I had some top-notch special effects. They had a similar "wow" factor to those of the original, though they were overdone just a bit. II and III were graphically... obscene.

[Red 75]

TPM could be called the last "pure" Star Wars movie because it was the last to be shot on film. It also relies much less on CGI (particulary CGI sets) compared to the other prequels.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

2) Considering the failure of the dialogue, unlike the original Star Wars, it did not have any truly ground-breaking special effects to WOW the audiences with, and relied way too heavily on CGI.  This actually turned off many audience members, who felt like they were watching cartoons.  With no ground-breaking technology to boast, the poor acting was exposed and had nothing to hide behind.

There are some amazing effects in TPM, and a lot of it holds up very well now, 7 years later.

3) The overemphasis on commercialization and marketing......

4)  Lucas's emperor-esque domination over the project, and stubbornness to adapt to the valid criticisms his films had received.  He did everything the way he wanted to do them, regardless of whether it was a quality film or not.  Is it a big mystery why Empire Strikes Back was such an awesome film and is heralded as a classic?  Take a look at the name under the Director title.  Lucas is a great storyteller.  He is not a screenwriter.  He is not a quality director.

Yes, and yes. The greatness went out of the Star Wars saga when Gary Kurtz left, and there wasn't anyone to hold Lucas back anymore.

I will say this, though: Star Wars is a wonderfully crafted film. Well-directed, a feast for the eyes, and so very, very entertaining it gets away with all the shoddy aspects of it. That's what makes it an even better film, almost. It gets away with some bad things, just because of all the things it does so perfectly right.

But going back to good stuff from the prequels...

I'd like to add Qui-Gon's Funeral to the list.

[Red 75]

It seems that most people are naming scenes from The Phantom Menace, which I think is deserved.