Jump to content

Horner On The Score: Troy


QMM

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 139
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

In their prime wouldn't it have been fun to lock Herrmann, Horner and Goldsmith into a room and see who comes out?

Well, since the other two are dead... it appears that only Horner can possibly come out. Ironically.

;) The Black Dahlia (I enjoy it very much)

Karol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi - 1st post here! I'm quite a regular over at the Horner Shrine, and I'm often criticized over there for not blindly defending his music, techniques, self-plagairisms, etc... I am completely against Horner always re-using his themes and simply changing the Braveheart theme by a note or two for a new score. I think that it's wrong and makes it harder to appreciate the truly good music that he does produce. However, I still truly enjoy the music he's written!! And sadly, it's gotten to a point that Horner is going to get ripped on by certain people no matter what kind of music he produces. So, in essence, the blind-bashing has become just as bad as the blind-defending.

I love JW's music as much as anyone, and have seen him perform live in Chicago six times. However, even his most ardent proponents must admit that JW also "steals/borrows" from the classical music realm. The examples of it that I've heard are plenty....so, while it's certainly easier to bash on Horner for it, let's not forget that every composer does it, including our beloved JW - and I don't want to crucify either one of them for doing it.

How film music fans became such snobs I will never, ever understand. How many of the fans find it trendy or almost a necessity to "choose sides" on whether or not they think that Hans Zimmer and Media Ventures are a bunch of repetitive hacks; or if JW can only compose a great theme, but the rest of the score is a bore; or if Horner is a hack with no talent because only 90% of each new score is original, and 10% is re-used material..... The point is that while I own just under 700 film scores by a variety of composers, I've never found it necessary to get mad at a composer...or to rip on a fan because they like a certain composer...or even to judge a score before I've even heard it.

As far as the interview, I completely agree that it left me feeling a little at odds. While I think that Horner was completely and brutally honest, it also might have been over the top in its honesty. JW is a guy who won't ever say anything bad about anyone -- but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the same feelings that Horner has mentioned....Horner was just crazy enough to actually say them outloud! And while I have to give him props for that (and for supposedly giving us some insight into the "real" Hollywood), I still wish he would have chosen a few more diplomatic words to make it sound a little less harsh.

That's my take. I hope to talk with all of you soon....

Shoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aha, we have a classical saxophonist among us. Rousseau you said, QuestionMark Man, unless there is another guy who goes by the same name. I'm actually a saxophonist studying in Paris with Jean-Yves Fourmeau, and I'm trying of finding a way to come over to the States next year. I'm thinking of going to Michigan State University with Joe Lulloff, great teacher it seems.

Igor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aha, we have a classical saxophonist among us. Rousseau you said, QuestionMark Man, unless there is another guy who goes by the same name. I'm actually a saxophonist studying in Paris with Jean-Yves Fourmeau, and I'm trying of finding a way to come over to the States next year. I'm thinking of going to Michigan State University with Joe Lulloff, great teacher it seems.

Igor

Great to meet another saxophonist! Yes it was the Rousseau you were thinking of. I was very surprised at how nice and genial the man was and even at his age he's able to play the Creston Sonata like a master. I asked him about taking lessons from him next semester but he'll be too busy so I'll have to take it with one of his graduate students ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who are you studying with? Yeah his Creston is my favorite, I've heard quite alot of versions of that Sonata. I've recently got that for myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who are you studying with? Yeah his Creston is my favorite, I've heard quite alot of versions of that Sonata. I've recently got that for myself.

I'm not studying with anybody at the moment, I'm only playing with one of the University Bands at the moment because, this being my first year in college I didn't want to overload my self with a ton of stuff at first, but I'll be taking private lessons next semester and will probably just have to practice at my dorm for now.

My brother played the Creston last year and went to state with it, hope you enjoy it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In their prime wouldn't it have been fun to lock Herrmann, Horner and Goldsmith into a room and see who comes out?

Well, since the other two are dead... it appears that only Horner can possibly come out. Ironically.

:) The Black Dahlia (I enjoy it very much)

Karol

That's why I said in their prime.

I guess I could have made it easier and said if they were all alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got that. But they are dead. So maybe it was because of such confrontation with Horner. He killed them with his personality alone :)

Karol, who thinks that his reasoning falters lately (since Herrmann died December 24th 1975, so it was some time before Horner)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horner is very bad at interviews, and I think due to nervousness rather than true arrogance.

He has said plenty of other things which came across as preposterous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Horner enough, but in this interview he is a total ass.

I especially like the part where he talks about how lots of composers these days simply write music that sounds the same over and over again and he is quite possibly the worst offender of this kind in Hollywood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Horner enough, but in this interview he is a total ass.

I especially like the part where he talks about how lots of composers these days simply write music that sounds the same over and over again and he is quite possibly the worst offender of this kind in Hollywood.

Sounded like Horner was making a jab at MV/RC with that comment. I still cannot contain how entertained I was by this interview, his story about the events surrounding the troubled production of The New World were particularly interesting. Terrence Malick sounds like every composer's worst nightmare. It reminded me of Jerry Goldsmith's strained working relationship with Ridley Scott over Alien and Legend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually no. I'm just half-Lebanese, half-Brazilian, I'm studying in Paris right now, and I hope I can get a scholarship or an assistantship to be able to go to MSU next year, i hope, or the year after that. And the more I think of it, the more itmakes sense to me that I must go.

Igor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, I'm about an hour and a half into it (right after the whole Peterson/Yared talk). My impressions so far: Terrific interview, one of the best I've heard fo a film composer. Far and away the best Horner's given. What you call vanity, I call honesty. I think he comes off as very honest. That doesn't necasserly make him right, of course, though so far I find myself agreeing with him on a whole lot of points.

About the Troy comments:

Well, the scenes I have matched against the film worked beautifully and much better than Horner's score. Like in the transition from Achilles' contemplating face after speaking to his mother, to the wide shot of the 1000 ships... Horner is absolutely anticlimactic here, I couldn't believe it. And for Horner to accuse Yared of not knowing how to score a film like this, when his score includes sooo much stolen material (more than usual), ...

I went on a project about a year and a half ago with a friend of trying to create a cut of the film entirely with Yared's score. Many scenes were spectacular, mesmerising. But, to tell the truth, I think I agree with Horner. The score was wrong for the film. The music was so much better than the film, so much bolder, so much louder, that at times the intensity (and decibals) reached just overwhelmed to such a degree as to totally nullify the draam on screen. As a music fan, it was glorious. As a guy trying to watch a film, it was just a very harmful score.

Of course Yared's music for Troy is so much better in every possible way than Horner's (and I do mean EVERY possible way). But that it besides the point. And that's exactly what Horner is saying. He's not at all saying that the music is bad, or badly composed, which indeed would be terribly hypocritical (which, of course, does apply to his Bach/English Patient comment, whether founded or a petty invention of Horner's), he is saying that, as a film score, the music did not serve the film. And I quite agree with him. The score was too big, too grand for the film to support, or any other film that I can imagine. I am extremely thankful that Yared got the chance he did to write such intelligent, glorious music, thankful that he had the film and the extravegant tastes of a Wagnerian director. That is by far to best thing to come of the whole project. Just today I listened to parts of the score and couldn't get enough of it, and can't remember the last time I put on Horner's score (though I do like it). But the fact that it is, IMO, some of the best music ever written for film, does not negate the fact that it was a bad film score. A good film score does not need to be intelligent. A good film score does not need to be original. A good film score does not need to be good music. It needs to serve the dramatic purposes of the film. If it is any or all of the above, all the better, but first and foremost, it's got to serve the film. And if the director is too stupid to see what his film really needs, that still doesn't mean he should throw away the work put into the film by giving it a harmful score. Yared here was not a victim of the studio, nor of the test screening audience, nor of the focus group. He was the victim of Wolfgang Peterson, and no one but Wolfgang Peterson.

Horner's score serves the film terrifically. Some moments may not have been big enough, but concidering the unfortunate circumstances of Yared's termination, it's understandable. Either way, it still worked.

The trouble is, so much discussion of film scores have nothing to do with good film scoring. Of course Yared can compose the pants off Horner and Zimmer and 99.9% of all Hollywood film composers. But the fact is, as unfortunate or depressing as it might be, a film composer's job is to serve the film. Horner and Zimmer are brilliant film composers. Yared is too, when he is not acting on the whims of a stupid director. He did not deserve to get fired, he did everything that was asked of him, and did it as well as anyone ever has. But his score was wrong for Troy. It would be impractical to have him re-write the score within 2 weeks, after spending a year writing the first one. Bringing in Horner was a sensible, and, in hind-sight, a right thing to do for the sake of the film.

Here I've gone on a rant, replying with the one post to the other dozen I wanted to respond to specifically.......Oh, except for this one:

and Sneakers!

Everybody misses Sneakers

Terrific in the film, and makes for a good album. Don't forget who brought it to your attention, boy! 8O ;)

Morlock- who is really torn on the matter because he loves Yared's score so much, but feels that someone must present the matter from the POV of the film.

Morlock2- who would like to make it clear once more that NONE of this is against Yared or the music

Morlock3- who has other thoughts about the interview, but will save them for later, after getting his view on this most important matter off his chest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Here I've gone on a rant, replying with the one post to the other dozen I wanted to respond to specifically.......Oh, except for this one:  

 

and Sneakers!

Everybody misses Sneakers

Terrific in the film, and makes for a good album. Don't forget who brought it to your attention, boy! :P;)

Haven't forgotten! I can thank you for bringing a lot of things to my attention :) 8O

Also, kudos for what you said. It's good to hear another perspective besides one that simply slams Horner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that Yared's music matched the film perfectly. As others have mentioned, the shot of the ships is scored by Yared as if something is actually happening, sort of: "Achilles is going to his doom, along with thousands of other Greeks!". Horner's cue for the scene..."Hey, Achilles on a ship. Oh wait, lots of ships."

For the Approach of the Greeks: Yared's score makes the Greeks seem threatening. Horner's music seems to make the Greek army just another bunch of marching people, no worries.

The fight between Hector and Aias, Yared makes Ajax threatening and Hector valiant. Almost actually makes me worry for both characters. I don't even remember Horner's music.

The only place I can think of as Horner surpassing Yared is in Yared's use of screeching vocals for Hector's funeral. Of course, Horner used wailing vocals all over the place...like for a scene of the camera panning over the walls of Troy at night when nothing at all is happening.

BTW, does anybody know how Yared's finale cues match up? I can't seem to synch them with the movie. Most everything else I've figured out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have yet to hear Yared's score, but I would like to.

Speaking of interviews, I just listened to sountrack.net's interview with Danny Elfman and I must say that he is he best composer interview I've heard. He's honest, interesting, and insightful.

Ted

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Being a big JH fan, I thought I'd like his version better than Yared's....that is until I heard Yared's and it's far superior. Yared's version is a HUGE score though (and as JH was saying in that interview, HUGE seemed to be the problem and why they pulled it...not huge in terms of orchestra members, just in sound). Along the lines of Vangelis' Alexander.

I thought the film itself was complete crap though - a total bore. So, I never really tried to synch up Yared's score to the film to see how it would fit, because I don't want to agonize sitting thru the film again....I just prefer listening to Yared's Troy over Horner's Troy..... Just my opinion though.

Ted - you can buy a copy of Yared's Troy at http://www.majestyx.com/index2.html

Great site to get thousands of can't-find-and-unavailable-unreleased scores.... :( (and no it's not my site...I'm not plugging.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's it.

It's over.

I'm burning all my JH CD's.

Oh wait there ain't much I've got :(

Seriously... Horner is a complete ass indeed. But that man knows how to deal with Hollywood better than any composer of the past twenty years. He hands them exactly what they want, everytime. Sure it's predictable and stolen blattently from the greats, but it's exactly what the director and producer wants. I still wonder how he could have difficulties handling Mallick. I mean couldn't he just watch his _4_ other movies and simply understand that he likes classical-based-slow-etheral-music?

At least let's be thankful that Horner does score music mostly in a normal, non-MV way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yared's music is much better than Horner's. It hardly sounds like 50's Hercules music.

The only cues I'm not too thrilled with are the wailing women cues. Even my wife made me skip those when I listening to the score.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

anyways that classical piece in New World,the Vorspiel from Das Reingold,at first I thought it was a bit similar to The Kathra Ritual from Search for Spock,so Horner could have come up with something.

K.M.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ymenard wrote:

Seriously... Horner is a complete ass indeed.

He's certainly not as humble as JW, that's for sure. He's pretty cocky and quite confident that he will deliver exactly what the director/producer wants (as ymenard just stated). But, hearing someone speak quite frankly about everything in that interview is what I found refreshing -- it's the over-confidence that was too much to handle. But, actually hearing real responses instead of a lot of cookie-cutter, politically correct answers was kind of nice to hear for once.

And as for Troy....both Horner and Yared managed to produce the worst wailing voices ever. Amazingly, truly terrible sounds!

ymenard wrote:

I still wonder how he could have difficulties handling Mallick. I mean couldn't he just watch his _4_ other movies and simply understand that he likes classical-based-slow-etheral-music?

That's the strange part, because while The New World isn't one of my favorite scores (it's rather boring after a few listens), it certainly seemed to have nailed the slow, etheral aspects that Mallick seems to like.....it was nowhere near as good as Zimmer's Thin Red Line, but still....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening. That's what I also really like about Théodred's funeral scene in the Two Towers Extended Edition, the "earthy" mourning song Éowyn sings... Some people find it hideous, I find it totally moving, raw emotion, unlike the processed-and-streamlined-to-death pleasant new-age wailing that's heard everywhere these days (like in Horner's score).

That's what I like most about Yared's score, although it's cleverly constructed (heck, it even has a choral fugue), it sounds raw, a bit uncivilised... that's fitting for the setting. Horner's score doesn't have a particular distinguishing character, it could have been for any big contemporary drama, and his Achilles theme (not the love theme) especially, which sounds like a standard army fanfare and would easily fit in a Bruckheimer movie.

I don't say that Yared's music works brilliantly in the whole film, as I've only matched a few portions of it against the movie, and perhaps it is a bit too overpowering, at least by modern standards... but at least it has character, it has soul, and that's what Horner's score seriously lacks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a big difference between saying a good piece of music is wrong for a particular film and calling it just plain awful.

And nothing has led me to belive Yared's score is wrong. As other have done, the score matches some scenes perfectly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horner is indeed a hack, and a dispiccable one at that. I don't think I've ever read a less sympathetic interview this side of a list of sheer invectives. His lack of humility is staggering! And he doesn't have much to be proud of; he has fully betrayed whatever moderate gifts he once displayed.

A Horrible Hack!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His comments about Yared were offensive and unnecessary, but I couldn't help laughing at his comments about copying other composers music - there can be no doubt that he is more guilty of this than most other composers... you actually get the impression he genuinely believes all his music is original.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marcus wrote:

Horner is indeed a hack, and a dispiccable one at that. I don't think I've ever read a less sympathetic interview this side of a list of sheer invectives. His lack of humility is staggering! And he doesn't have much to be proud of; he has fully betrayed whatever moderate gifts he once displayed.  

A Horrible Hack!!

See, here's where I have to disagree. When over-generalizations are thrown out to encompass the entire spectrum of someone's career, it doesn't make any sense. Is Horner over-confident? Yep. Is he politically correct in his responses? Nope. Is he arrogant? Probably.

But that doesn't take away from some of the great music he's written. Have you listened to the subtle beauty of The Spitfire Grill? Have you heard the sheer patriotic anthem of "The Launch" and the entire score from Apollo 13? The list goes on and on....Does he have some major flaws, as far as self-repetitions, etc??? Yep, he sure does! But, the fact that 90% of each score is original, against the 10% of re-used material shouldn't condemn him to being a "hack." There's no doubt he has talent, and writes beautiful themes....I just wish that he would expand beyond his boundaries to search for new themes and music, rather than just changing a few notes and expanding upon past ideas.... It's THAT area that he lacks in. But he's not a hack.

ChrisAfonso wrote:

Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening.

And everyone listens to music for different reasons. While I can appreciate your choice of Yared's utter wailing voices, and while it also may be more accurate to how people feel at a funeral, it is just NOT something I ever want to listen to over my stereo in the house. Surround sound systems were not created so that my wine glasses would shatter from that wailing, making me run into the room to skip that track. It's just not an enjoyable listen....and if I'm going to drop $15 on a CD for all of these scores, the ONLY thing that I want is an enjoyable listen. I could care less about an authentic funeral wail.

robthehand wrote:

you actually get the impression he genuinely believes all his music is original.

Yeah, that's the other problem with Horner -- if he would just admit: "Yep. I feel that I use some of the same music to describe scenes in various films" then at least he would be conveying honesty. Albeit reprehensible honesty, but still....It's weird to hear him speak like he doesn't completely re-use his themes, when it's so obvious that he does....... I love his music, but hate that aspect of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, sure it's not for everyone to listen to it at home, my comment was directed at the use in the movie... most people wouldn't listen to an atonal screeching noisy horror score at home, which doesn't change the fact that the music is perfect for its intended use in the film.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ChrisAfonso wrote:

Well, sure it's not for everyone to listen to it at home, my comment was directed at the use in the movie... most people wouldn't listen to an atonal screeching noisy horror score at home, which doesn't change the fact that the music is perfect for its intended use in the film.

Agreed 100%. But that's one of the main criticisms of Horner: that even though his sound usually fits the film perfectly, it's too repetitive of his past writings. But if the only point is to fit the film perfectly, then while Yared's wailing voice works perfectly, then the vast majority of Horner's scores also work perfectly. It's only fair to admit that - it can't work both ways. Granted, the re-uses are wrong in my opinion, and don't expand the creativity that we want and expect from him....but the music still fits the film. (Maybe not as much in the case of Troy, but he only had 9 days to write the score, so a small amount of slack should be allowed.)

And as much as I love a score to fit the film (which is what the composer gets paid for), when I'm dropping my money on a CD, and listening to it in my car or at home, the only thing I care about is whether it's an enjoyable listen. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I don't say that most of Horner's music doesn't fit the film (except in instances like the anticlimactic ships scene etc.). MY main criticism is that Horner mostly does his exact job in that he writes a score that aids the movie (well), but doesn't do anything more than that. A composer (as an artist) should always (at least) try to write creative music, or he becomes a mere craftsman doing (caution, exaggeration here: ) brainless technical work. An analogy would be a set designer who (re)uses the same sets for different movies, if they fit thematically. Sure they work in context, and technically there's nothing wrong with them, just that he saves the effort of creating something new. But, like with Horner's music, the pitfall is when this becomes too obvious and begins to take the viewer/listener out of the movie experience. Like (the usual example :() each time Horner's overused-to-death danger motif pops out in Troy, I notice it and think "I've heard that in this, this, this, this, this and this movie... it's getting old".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a cue that a friend made a few years ago. He took Bicentennial Man, Sneakers and A Beautiful Mind and overlayed all three cues on top of each other.

With the exception of a few moments it sounds like a Horner symphony of all the same repetative notes he uses over and over. It sounds like an actual composed cue.

Needless to say it's one of the few times film music has made me cry from laughing so hard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ChrisAfonso wrote:

MY main criticism is that Horner mostly does his exact job in that he writes a score that aids the movie (well), but doesn't do anything more than that. A composer (as an artist) should always (at least) try to write creative music, or he becomes a mere craftsman doing (caution, exaggeration here: ) brainless technical work.

You and I are in complete agreement! That's my main beef with JH as well.... From hearing the themes that he writes we know that he has talent - but to never delve into new ideas limits him as an artist. And that's the sad truth: that for someone who has done more than 100 films, we could have an even greater variety of music if only JH chose to expand his own creativity. But he hasn't. And that's what is sad.

Mark wrote:

Needless to say it's one of the few times film msuc has made me cry from laughing so hard.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I've ever laughed out loud literally. I'm not that caught up in the whole thing where someone repeating music is going to upset me or cause me to laugh out loud in ridicule. I think it's unprofessional as an artist....but unfortunately it's perfectly viable as a film composer. And I'm only sad that we don't see more of JH as an artist because he won't break out of the comfortable little box that he's in. It's a shame....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Horner understands that its the director's movie, not the composer's. He seems to think he can get whatever he wants because he is the great James Horner. He understands how to score a film, therefore directors should just give their films over to him, no questions asked. This is a very pompous attitude. Even John Williams is willing to do what it takes to give a director what he or she wants.

Ted

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally was not a fan of his score to this film. The scene where the city was burning and everything going bad really quick... that was so... Titanic. It worked well with Titanic, but I really lost interest when I heard it here.

I also hated that song he wrote for the film. And the triumphant horn theme heard in the film is so...

I dunno. If you like James Horner, you like this score becuase it is SOOoooo James Horner.

Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not hire...good...performers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it's probably because the orchestras are tired of playing the same old music whenever they do a score for Horner.

"Didn't we play this piece the last 2 times we worked for him?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do agree that it definitely is refreshing to see a non PR type angle of the industry and conflicts within, but Horner went too far here. Nothing in that interview showed any indication of modesty, humility or tolerance of unusual ways of working inside him.

I knew someone like that on an unrelated board I help administrate. He got banned permanently last year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not hire...good...performers?

You know what? I also wondered about this s couple of times. It's sometimes like they don't know what to do with his music.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.