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Horner On The Score: Troy


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Ah, a wonderful question has emerged!

The reason Horner gets bad performances is because he writes badly for orchestra, something his orchestrators can't truly remedy, because the music is badly "thought", badly "felt"...

By the same token, Williams will always get good results, even when players give a less than perfect rendition of his music, simply because the music is beautifully conceived. No matter how bad a performance, a musician's appreciation for thoughtfulness, consideration and (dare I say) love on behalf of the composer, will result in a certain enthusiasm, and usually a clearer understanding of a composer's intention.

This is always true, and in any musical context.

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I hate this horner bashing.

Yes, ok, he is redundant.

But he wrote some AMAZING scores (some lesser listened to works come to mine like "Balto", "We're Back", and "Once Upon A Forest".

He STILL writes some great music ("Iris", "A New World", "Legend of Zorro".

Yes, Williams will get more respect out of the orchestra because of his reputation and, perhaps, their love for him. But Horner still writes some great music. He is still, and will forever be, on my top 5 list!

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I agree....I've never understood the need for all the composer bashing out there. What is the true, honest point of it? To make yourself feel better because you're apparently a FAN of the BEST composer out there?? And if another composer doesn't stand up to the same degree, BUT still somehow gains popularity, then you must continually try to write comments and come up with theories about why he sucks, or is a hack....or for crying out loud, as to why the friggin orchestra members don't play the music as well for him???

The endless bashing, in all honesty, ONLY ADDS to the fact that Horner is an extremely gifted composer....it's just like an athlete who goes into the opposing stadium for a game: if the other fans yell "BOOOOO" it's not because you suck; it's because you're good, and they don't like that you're on the other team. If you truly sucked, then no one would bother to yell "BOOOOOO."

So while all the Williams' fans who bash Horner get their own personal ego boosted, all it really does is establish Horner as a truly talented composer worth taking recognition of. I write this with a caveat that I've stated many times already: I think Horner has many flaws in his approach! However, I still truly appreciate the music he's written and enjoy its beauty, power and emotion.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to pure, emotional beauty, I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week. Where Williams succeeds is in writing the best themes ever recorded, for some of the most popular films ever made -- JW's THEMES are unsurpassed --- but Horner's simplistic beauty for a love theme that moves you emotionally is also unsurpassed.

I just don't understand anyone's desire to bash instead of to appreciate all music.....

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Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening. That's what I also really like about Théodred's funeral scene in the Two Towers Extended Edition, the "earthy" mourning song Éowyn sings... Some people find it hideous, I find it totally moving, raw emotion, unlike the processed-and-streamlined-to-death pleasant new-age wailing that's heard everywhere these days (like in Horner's score).  

Agreed.

So in the end we have two movies, one overscored and one underscored. Which is better?

Karol

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I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week.

Well, me too, but I don't really like Superman... or let's say, I'm indifferent to it.

If you'd take those two over the Blue Fairy theme from AI however, or Marion's theme from Raiders... :P

/edit: A Horner love theme I really adore is the one from "Deep Impact"... stunnningly beautiful :P

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I hate to say it, but when it comes to pure, emotional beauty, I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week. Where Williams succeeds is in writing the best themes ever recorded, for some of the most popular films ever made -- JW's THEMES are unsurpassed --- but Horner's simplistic beauty for a love theme that moves you emotionally is also unsurpassed.

:P:PROTFLMAOROTFLMAOROTFLMAOROTFLMAO

I just don't understand anyone's desire to bash instead of to appreciate all music.....

There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

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There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.  

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

:P

About Horner's Braveheart/Titanic theme being more emotional than the Superman theme: I bought the Braveheart CD because I heard good things. I listened to the love theme and turned it off halfway through. I could never do that with Love Theme From Superman, and may it be just out of sheer awe.

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There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.  

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

And that's understandable. I never tried to say that JW music shouldn't be appreciated. He's had a much broader career than has JH (conducting the Boston Pops for starters) or pretty much any film composer out there.

But as for "the same old notes slapped on a page" comment, obviously there was a first time that a Horner theme was written: When the Apollo 13 theme was played....when the Willow theme was played....the action music of Aliens...the Braveheart theme for the 1st time...etc etc.... Those wonderful themes show off the composer's talent -- it's his lack of an expanding pallette that it his downfall.

So, it's just disappointing to see people who are obviously very passionate about film scores and orchestral music (a very tiny community mind you) choose to hate a fellow composer, rather than enjoy what there is to offer. BUT, that's everyone's own personal choice and taste.

I'd rather take the approach of looking at each individual score on its own and deciding whether or not I like it and enjoy listening to it. For example, I think that Horner's new one All the King's Men is rather boring....it's getting good reviews from what I can gather, but I'm bored by it, as it just seems to not live up to the potential it had. But that certainly doesn't make me like Horner any less. I just choose not to enjoy that particular score (and many others) of his.....But it's the same with Zimmer, Williams, Thomas Newman, Goldsmith, Brian Tyler or Gregson-Williams or anyone ---- these guys all write the music to fit the film: sometimes I'll enjoy the music on CD, and sometimes I won't....it's pretty much that simple.

I just feel sorry for the people who simply choose to ingnore the works of a significant member of the film scoring community. And like I said: It's all about preference and taste -- if gkgyver (btw, I LOVE the Newman avatar!! :P) had to turn off the Braveheart theme half-way thru, then that's obviously his choice. Personally, it's not like I would turn off EITHER Superman or Braveheart.....it's just that if I had to choose one, I'd choose Braveheart. I just love good music and I don't care who writes it because I have no axes to grind and don't feel disdain or loathing for anyone....

Case in point: I'm getting married next Saturday, and the string quartet that we've hired will be playing The Princess Bride "storybook love", Superman "love theme", Braveheart "for the love of a princess", and the bride will walk down the aisle to Legends of the Fall "The Ludlows." It should be a nice, outdoor ceremony....

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Thanks Ted....and congrats right back at you for October 21st!!! All the Best to you!

And Merkel, thanks! Unfortunately the string quartet couldn't play any Dire Straits!! ha! :)

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The irony, I just arranged a piano/viola/flute arrangement of 'The Ludlows.' We play it at my church as a prelude at times.

I was gonna do something John Williams, but everyone knows John Williams. So I choose someone more simple and obscure, like James Horner.

Don't take my performance question as a bashing... I don't hate James Horner.

Some of my favourite childhood films have a James Horner score...

An American Tale

-and Fievel Goes West

Willow

The Land Before Time

We're Back, a Dinosaur Story

The Pagemaster

Casper

Titanic

Deep Impact

Wow... that era of films... really brings me back...

But what bothers me is when you start getting to modern Horner, I can't say many of his modern scores have surprised me. Maybe 'The Perfect Storm,' but when 'Bicentennial Man' (which is truly almost a rip off of ... not sure why Speilberg did that and AI. The scores are NOT comparable because AI has such a better score) and 'A Beautiful Mind' start off with the SAME THING... I just...really lost interest and was disspointed...

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The irony, I just arranged a piano/viola/flute arrangement of 'The Ludlows.' We play it at my church as a prelude at times.

See, that's really cool. And not just because it's Horner, but the fact that you've studied enough to know how to do that with any music....if you lived around Chicago I would have paid you to do something like that for our wedding :) -- I'm sure that sounds fantastic!!!

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GoodMusician wrote:

But what bothers me is when you start getting to modern Horner, I can't say many of his modern scores have surprised me. Maybe 'The Perfect Storm,' but when 'Bicentennial Man' (which is truly almost a rip off of ... not sure why Speilberg did that and AI. The scores are NOT comparable because AI has such a better score) and 'A Beautiful Mind' start off with the SAME THING... I just...really lost interest and was disspointed...

It's impossible to disagree that modern Horner is harder to appreciate than his earlier works, if you look at it thru the eyes of the self-repetitions -- but while A Beautiful Mind certainly starts off nearly identical in the piano build-up as Bicentennial Man, the rest of the score is just hauntingly beautiful....the car-chase scene is brilliant, and the love themes are gorgeous. So, while I openly criticise the repetition of the opening, I'm not going to hold it against the rest of the score, which is fantastic.

...And I'd also love to hear your arrangement if someone can teach you how to put it into a PDF file, because I have no clue how to either... :)

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I have to admire Shoes for being in the clear minority regarding Horner and standing his ground every step of the way. For me, Horner is hit or miss. I tend not to like his over-the-top, epic stuff like Braveheart or Apollo 13. But I like a lot of his older scores and a few recent ones such as The Missing and The Legend of Zorro. As for the repitition, every composer does it.

Ted

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Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not  hire...good...performers?

Rubbish, Horner works with the same players that Williams often uses.

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As for the repitition, every composer does it.

That's true. I think a lot of it depends on whether you liked the music to start with. :)

But also, it's how appropriate the self-repetition is. Herrmann did it quite a lot, but I think - for example - the theme from The Ghost and Mrs. Muir worked just as well in Wuthering Heights (or was it the other way round? I can never remember which came first). Sure, it's a bit lazy, but it works. Sometimes this is the case with Horner, but sometimes it takes me right out of the film, and I start wondering "why am I heard The Wrath of Khan in this score?"

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Very good point, Rob. Horner's repitions aren't really consistent. It seems totally arbitrary, as if any melody can score any image. And I don't like to think that a composer doesn't drive him or herself crazy trying to find the right, unique approach to an image, character, or scene.

Ted

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Ted wrote:

I have to admire Shoes for being in the clear minority regarding Horner and standing his ground every step of the way

:) HA! Well, on a JW board I certainly didn't expect to be in the majority about Horner's music. But the fact that I'll keep discussing it is because I try to be honest about his flaws, as well as his talents. Horner has plenty of scores that I simply cannot stand to listen to (Unlawful Entry anyone??)....And I'll never blindly claim "So WHAT!!" in trying to defend his re-uses. I personally don't feel as much offended when he re-uses material - I only feel cheated because I just honestly want to hear brand new ideas and themes each and every time. He has so much beautiful music that I just don't understand why he won't abandon his old ideas; feel proud of the work that he's done, but move on from it....create something jsut as good or better, but completely different..... That's where I find his shortcomings.

The Missing & the Zorro scores are both really good....In fact, though, I wasn't as impressed with the 2nd Zorro, because I liked the 1st one better.....even though "The Train" is a fantastic cue.

What do you think about his softer scores though? like Bobby Fischer or Spitfire Grill or Sneakers or Iris? It's these smaller scores where I think he excels.... And I didn't even like Iris as much. I thought it was good, but it's not a truly fun listen. ....But it's his over-the-top stuff that I miss, and don't get to see much of anymore. Although The Missing brought some of it back....what a great final cue "The Long Ride Home."

But again....that's just me!

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The Missing & the Zorro scores are both really good....In fact, though, I wasn't as impressed with the 2nd Zorro, because I liked the 1st one better.....even though "The Train" is a fantastic cue.

I wanted to love Zorro, or even just like it, but the 4 note danger motif AND that Shakahuchi flute in one score is just too Willow for me.

Also there is something about the sound mix or recording that just turns me off.

the Flamengo stuff is very good though, very inventive.

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I haven't heard Spitfire Grill (though I hear its excellent), Sneakers, or Iris. I will say that I think the Legend of Zorro is better than the original Zorro score. "The Train" is one of the best action cues I've heard in quite some time.

Ted

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Stefancos wrote:

I wanted to love Zorro, or even just like it, but the 4 note danger motif AND that Shakahuchi flute in one score is just too Willow for me.

And I can appreciate that....the difference is that some people get so caught up in 4 notes, that it ruins the rest of the entire score for them. And if that's the case, that's cool. But, it's the bigger, thematic self-repetitions that bother me a lot more than a simple 4-note danger motif....I could care less about that. And the shakahuchi flute I think was too overly used in Willow. I prefer the instrument in a lot of his other scores (including Zorro's) where it's played down a bit....it's a very cool sounding instrument.

Ted wrote:

I haven't heard Spitfire Grill (though I hear its excellent), Sneakers, or Iris.

I have to say "give them a listen." Spitfire Grill is my personal favorite Horner...Sneakers is just a lot of fun and has a great mix of action and subtlety....Iris is really nice with Joshua Bell's violin. Even for some Horner-haters, I would think that they could at least appreciate some of those scores....

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The Missing & the Zorro scores are both really good....In fact, though, I wasn't as impressed with the 2nd Zorro, because I liked the 1st one better.....even though "The Train" is a fantastic cue.

I wanted to love Zorro, or even just like it, but the 4 note danger motif AND that Shakahuchi flute in one score is just too Willow for me.

Also there is something about the sound mix or recording that just turns me off.

the Flamengo stuff is very good though, very inventive.

The big flamenco outburst at the end of "The Fencing Lesson" is a direct lift from Bizet's "Carmen", though ;) When I didn't know Carmen, I thought "Wow, gorgeous flamenco writing by Horner", when I heard Carmen I was like :) , and know when I'm listening to Zorro I think "cool cue, but Horner didn't write this" 8O Doesn't diminish the quality of most of the rest of the score, which is one of the best Horner scores of the recent years (ok, 99 isn't exactly "recent"...).

But sometimes I get the impression that Horner should get a "Muwsic arranged by" credit instead of the "composed" one 8O

/edit: Also, beware of Apollo 13's "Master Alarm" in Sneakers 8O or the other way around, if Sneakers came first...

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Thank God. No 4 note danger motif anywhere in ALL THE KING'S MEN. Has it been laid to rest once and for all? Or will it rear its beautiful sound again in APOCALYPTO??

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Well, Shoes, you're at least certainly a Horner fan with whom you can discuss intelligently.

It's not like I deliberately chose to cut off Braveheart because it's James Horner music. It just left me completely cold. That might also have something to do with Titanic, which I heard before Braveheart.

And to me, Braveheart's love theme was so similar to My Heart Will Go On that it just annoyed me after some time.

We need the opinion of someone who hasn't heard James Horner before. Someone who is unencumbered by any emotional attachment. Someone whose heart is so dark, it cannot be swayed by pity, compassion, or human emotion of any kind ...

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Guys, please forgive my earlier post on this page, it was ineloquently put, and can too easily be misread as mere "Horner-bashing". I simply wanted, as a qualified professional, to point out why Horner tends to get surprisingly bad performances, given the standard of the musicians he works with. I have no interest in bashing a composer I regard as highly mediocre. But I will bash bad craftsmanship. Always!

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I don't know about bad craftsmanship, but the thing that I find most apalling about Horner's music is his constant use of the synth choir. I think it sounds just ... bad.

As a general rule of thumb, I don't want anything in my film score that I can achieve myself on my Yamaha keyboard.

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As a general rule of thumb, I don't want anything in my film score that I can achieve myself on my Yamaha keyboard.

I'd like to see you pull off anything half as good as Horner's worst synth mock-ups on your Yamaha keyboard. 8O

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I haven't heard Spitfire Grill (though I hear its excellent), Sneakers, or Iris. I will say that I think the Legend of Zorro is better than the original Zorro score. "The Train" is one of the best action cues I've heard in quite some time.

Ted

Check out the Spitfire Grill then. Even as a Horner-basher, I still find it a very well done. Personally, I think Horner is more inspired with these small films. Perhaps they suit his personality or touch a nerve. There is no reference to any scores of the past for Spitfire Grill which would backup what Horner said about big Hollywood films all being the same to him (he said this in an interview with Jeff Bond for FSM a few years back in an attempt to justify his rampant use of his own previous material).

Spitfire Grill is probably the last Horner score I bought and thoroughly enjoyed....what was that, 1996? Whew!

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The Missing & the Zorro scores are both really good....In fact, though, I wasn't as impressed with the 2nd Zorro, because I liked the 1st one better.....even though "The Train" is a fantastic cue.

I wanted to love Zorro, or even just like it, but the 4 note danger motif AND that Shakahuchi flute in one score is just too Willow for me.

Also there is something about the sound mix or recording that just turns me off.

the Flamengo stuff is very good though, very inventive.

Then Legend of Zorro fixes these problems. There are two appearances of danger motif. In fact, it's so unnoticable that it doesn't bother me at all. And there's considerably less Shakuhachi blasts.

It feels like Horner wanted to write the same score, but with less quotes. And the reference to ROTS is weak. Williams fanfares in BOTH were rather indifferent.

So maybe you should try this one.

Karol

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