The Dies Irae Thread

[Pelzter 0]

I've read about Williams' quotation of this piece often on this board, but, as it was previously the case with Horner's danger motif, I've not been able to identify it. Can someone point out usage of it in some of williams' most famous works? Star Wars movies, etc?

--Pelzter

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Start reading here.

[indy4 155]

Books or articles on Dies Irae

Anybody know where I could find these? I'm just talking about the musical theme. Thanks in advance!

[crocodile 7,973]

I'd start with Wikipedia. But then again you probably already did that. I attended a classical concert in Nottingham last Wednesday where the Moscow Philharmonic played Rachmaninoff's first symphony, which is very much based on Dies Irae (at least the first four pitches). And what a spectacular performance this was! Recommended for all James Horner fans (I even call it James Horner Symphony ). From what I can remember much of his music contains this motif (second symphony as well).

Also Liszt composed an absolute kick-ass piece based on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCEhmqsSnY

As far as books go, however, I've never came across any. I'd like to though. But there are some places to start in the bibliography of that Wikipedia article.

Karol

[Romão 2,274]

There was a great FSM podcast about its use in film music, I'm sure you can still find it on fsm's site

EDIT: found it. Number 5 on this page

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/film-score-monthly-podcast/id92147842

[indy4 155]

Thanks crocodile and Merkel!

[crocodile 7,973]

Also make sure to check this out

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd1zg1_red-cape-tango-metropolis-symphony_music

Karol

[filmmusic 1,821]

there is a dissertation with a subject of "Dies irae in Rachmaninoff".

I don't remember where I saw it, but I'm sure you'll find it in google.

[indy4 155]

Thanks!

[airmanjerm 78]

Hey Indy,

If I were you, I would look in the music section and scour every book you can about medieval music, since the Dies Irae has its roots in medieval Gregorian chant. I have several books on that era, I will check then and scan/dictate anything exciting that I can find and send to you.

[indy4 155]

Thank you very much!

[Henry B 50]

It's part of the Requiem Mass and one of the few sequences not removed by the Council of Trent in the 16th century. But the tradition of quoting it in other music only came about a couple hundred years ago and has nothing to do with its liturgical origins.

[indy4 155]

There have been several threads about Dies Irae, but I think we should try to compile as complete a list as possible. It's fascinating how this one theme has survived for so long, but how it is virtually unknown to the general public.

Here's all that I'm aware of (it is far from complete, especially the concert works section):

John Williams:

"Roy and Gillian on the Road" (CE3K)

"Go Pack Your Suitcase / Introducting Marley / In Good Hands" (Home Alone, also heard in "Carol of the Bells")

"High Wire Stunts" (Jurassic Park)

"Burning Homestead" (Star Wars)

"Binary Sunset (Alternate)" (Star Wars)

"Tales Of A Jedi Knight/Learn About The Force" (Star Wars)

"Anakin and Padme" (Attack of the Clones)

"The Tusken Camp and the Homestead" (Attack of the Clones)

"Anakin's Betrayal" (Revenge of the Sith)

"The Immolation Scene" (Revenge of the Sith)

"Confrontation with Ogilvy" (War of the Worlds)

"Epilogue" (War of the Worlds)

Danny Elfman:

"Making Christmas" (Nightmare Before Christmas)

"Christmas Eve Montage" (Nightmare Before Christmas)

"End Titles" (Nightmare Before Christmas)

"Main Titles" (Sleepy Hollow)

"More Dreams" (Sleepy Hollow)

"End Credits" (Sleepy Hollow)

Hans Zimmer:

"To Die For" (Lion King)

Elmer Bernstein:

"At the Beginning" (Marie Ward)

Basil Poledouris

"Riddle of Steel/Riders of Doom" (Conan the Barbarian)

"Orphans of Doom/The Awakening" (Conan the Barbarian)

Stephen Sondheim:

"Epiphany" (Sweeney Todd)

"God, That's Good!" (Sweeney Todd)

"Prelude [The Ballad of Sweeney Todd]" (Sweeney Todd)

Camille Saint-Saens:

"Symphony No. 3 (Organ Symphony)"

Franz Liszt:

"Totentanz for Piano and Orchestra"

Frank Ticheli:

"Vesuvius"

For scores that reference the theme a lot, I've chosen a few of the highlights. For instance, Dies Irae is all over Nightmare Before Christmas because Elfman is quoting "Making Christmas," so I chose the 3 cues that feature it extensively. Feel free to point out the other cues that use it a lot, and I'll add them to the list.

There are probably thousands and thousands of different variations out there (I've heard that Rachmaninov used it hundreds of times), so this will probably never be complete. But we can get it as close as possible!

[Jilal 569]

Could you give track times?

[indy4 155]

Sure - but not now. Next time I have time to kill, I'll try to remember to post track times.

[King Mark 3,624]

I think Die Irae is a figment of people's imagination

[filmmusic 1,821]

Here is another article about Dies Irae in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring:

http://solomonsmusic.net/Rite.htm

[Incanus 5,713]

I think Die Irae is a figment of people's imagination

No I do not think it is. Many composers have quoted it over the centuries. Williams e.g. employs figures which sound quite similar to it in many scores, not just the ones mentioned in indy4's post but I am not sure it is deliberate use of Dies Irae every time, at least not confirmed.

[Omen II 1,235]

Here is a random selection of some other works, film and non-film, that quote the dies irae prominently:

Hector Berlioz's

Symphonie Fantastique

(especially the last movement)

Gerald Fried's score for

The Return of Dracula

(1958)

Tasmanian composer Peter Sculthorpe's

Memento Mori

(1993)

Rachmaninov's

Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini

Ottorino Respighi's 'Butantan' from his work

Brazilian Impressions

, about a terrifying visit to see some poisonous snakes!

Although it is not an exact quote, Bernard Herrmann's theme for Charles Foster Kane in Citizen Kane is also very close to the dies irae.

[Romão 2,274]

- Hans Zimmer also uses it in the Lion Kind, in the track King of Pride Rock, at the 2:21 mark.

- Howard Shore also uses it as some sort of Mordor theme, than can be heard at the 0:14 mark of the track a Knife in the Dark

- It can be heard in the soundtrack for the game Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, in the track Room of God Machine and Finale. It starts right away with it

- Goldenthal uses it of course in Demolition Man, in the first track that is named, rightly so, Dies Irae

- Red Cape Tango from Dougherty's Metropolis Symphony has Dies Irae all over

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

Goldsmith - famously in Poltergeist, but it seems to me the accompaniment to Ave Satani is also a variation of the DI.

[Incanus 5,713]

Williams' score for Sleepers is full of a motif which is a close relative to Dies Irae or what people quickly label as Dies Irae.

Jurassic Park's secondary danger motif which is featured on the album on track Incident on Isla Nublar and High Wire Stunts is somewhat similar to Dies Irae and it pops up in those Williams scores indy4 mentioned above in his list.

[Thor 7,451]

Hans Zimmer also uses it in CRIMSON TIDE.

To chart the use of this in film music would seem like an impossible task. There have been so many.

[crocodile 7,973]

More recently in Beltrami's Knowing.

Karol

[indy4 155]

- Howard Shore also uses it as some sort of Mordor theme, than can be heard at the 0:14 mark of the track a Knife in the Dark

I don't think this is Dies Irae. The first two notes are too far apart (it's supposed to be a half step), and the third note doesn't return to the first note like in Dies Irae.

Goldsmith - famously in Poltergeist, but it seems to me the accompaniment to Ave Satani is also a variation of the DI.

If you're talking about the part where the tempo picks up a little, I don't think that is Dies Irae either. The notes are different (also, it's either wildly inaccurate or wildly creative to incorporate part of a Christian hymn in a theme for Satan). I thought that the first note of each measure might be a variation of Dies Irae, but it just plays the half step descent twice.

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

Given the context, it seems similar enough to me - not necessarily to the original Gregorian DI, but to the staple ostinato version of its beginning that's used all over the place in film scores. A 4-note motif, repeated with a step down (only on the first note in this case) and then repeated. And the 4 notes use the same interval as the DI as far as I can tell, just in different order. Satan is a Christian figure, it makes sense to use a twisted version of the DI for him.

[indy4 155]

Eh...too much of a stretch for me. It has the first three intervals of the DI, but that could very easily be a concidence.

[indy4 155]

I've heard some people use Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever" as an example of a coincidental Dies Irae quote, but a quick search revealed the following passage from Sousa's diary:

Here came one of the most vivid incidents of my career. As the vessel (the Teutonic) steamed out of the harbor I was pacing on the deck, absorbed in thoughts of my manager's death and the many duties and decisions which awaited me in New York. Suddenly, I began to sense a rhythmic beat of a band playing within my brain. Throughout the whole tense voyage, that imaginary band continued to unfold the same themes, echoing and re-echoing the most distinct melody. I did not transfer a note of that music to paper while I was on the steamer, but when we reached shore, I set down the measures that my brain-band had been playing for me, and not a note of it has ever changed.

I think that this proof is conclusive enough to say that it is not a coincidence that the first four notes of the march quote Dies Irae.

[Henry B 50]

That's proof?

[indy4 155]

Well, not 100% proof, but I think it's more than likely that this was not a coincidence. You've got a composer consumed by a friend's death, who suddenly has an audio vision of a piece of music that not only contains Dies Irae, but includes it in the very beginning of the piece. It may have been subconscious, but I don't think it was a coincidence.

[Alan 689]

It's all over Gottfied Huppertz's score for Metropolis to the point where it stops being a reference here and there and becomes a recurring theme. It's usually pretty obvious but can often be heard in a less obvious way as an accompaniment. An example of it's less obvious use would be from 0:39 of the track "Maschinenhalle - Moloch". Doesn't get any more obvious than in "Der Tod" though. The whole track is a straight quotation of it.

[airmanjerm 78]

Well, not 100% proof, but I think it's more than likely that this was not a coincidence. You've got a composer consumed by a friend's death, who suddenly has an audio vision of a piece of music that not only contains Dies Irae, but includes it in the very beginning of the piece. It may have been subconscious, but I don't think it was a coincidence.

Sousa actually uses the Dies Irae in a number of his marches....whether or not he was doing it because it was the Dies Irae or because he just liked the interval succession, he used it frequently...another notable example is the trio of "Washington Post."

Ira Hearshen elaborated on Sousa's use of that in the 1st movement of his "Sousa Symphony" - a long but interesting piece, four movements based on the more well-known Sousa marches. I looked for a Youtube of this, but couldn't find one for that movement (it's 18 minutes long, so not played very often. The 2nd is the most popular..."After the Thunderer." Very Mahler-like.) You can find it on iTunes though, if you're interested in the take-off on Sousa's use of the Dies Irae succession.

[indy4 155]

Just heard it around 3:35 of "July 4, 1839" from Amistad.

[indy4 155]

There's a theme in AotC that I think is based on Dies Irae. 3:00 of "Star Wars Main Title And Ambush On Coruscant," if you only look at the long notes, it's Dies Irae.

Same thing for a theme from The Lion King (1:12 of "This Land").

[Admiral Holdo 16]

As I said in the Morricone thread, the amount of warped genius it must take to create something like this... wow.

[indy4 155]

I remember hearing a part of this from the FSM Podcast. That's great.

[crocodile 7,973]

Ha! It appears several times in Conan The Barbarian, most notably here at 0:29:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWs0Y1om2aY

Karol

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Hard to believe two threads totaling 5 pages of posts, and not one mention of The Shining, probably the most famous and arguably most effective use of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw23KM3-Ry8

[chuck 154]

Goldsmith - famously in Poltergeist, but it seems to me the accompaniment to Ave Satani is also a variation of the DI.

CinemaScore: I seem to recognize the Dies Irae in the ‘Escape from Suburbia’ cue.

Jerry Goldsmith: (laughs) You mean just about four bars of it?

CinemaScore: Yes.

Jerry Goldsmith: That’s very clever; you’re the first one to catch it!

CinemaScore: What were you doing with that little cue there?

Jerry Goldsmith: That’s the Mass for the Dead! I thought I’d throw a little inside joke there, since every composer from time immemorium has quoted that! I did it, years ago, before THE SHINING as a matter of fact. I based a whole part of the score of MEPHISTO WALTZ on the Dies Irae.

http://www.runmovies.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86:jerry-goldsmith-on-poltergeist-and-nimh&catid=37:scoring-session

[ymenard 54]

Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, last movement. It's pretty obvious!

[indy4 155]

Eh...too much of a stretch for me. It has the first three intervals of the DI, but that could very easily be a concidence.

I thought about this, and it turns out a inverted variation on the first four notes of Dies Irae does indeed start off the accompaniment of Ave Satani. Not sure if it's intended or not, but it's there.

[PIANOMUSICIAN1991 0]

I love its use in Sweeney Todd, it seems that its use there is the most appropriate of nearly all examples.

[indy4 155]

I also recently realized it's in "Jack's Lament" from Nightmare Before Christmas (and of course "Making Christmas").

[indy4 155]

I love its use in Sweeney Todd, it seems that its use there is the most appropriate of nearly all examples.

Given your avatar, I'm not surprised.

[PIANOMUSICIAN1991 0]

I love its use in Sweeney Todd, it seems that its use there is the most appropriate of nearly all examples.

Given your avatar, I'm not surprised.

Yes indeed.

I think its true though that the Dies Irae is used an awful lot but most of the time its not used properly. Its one of those motives that is over-used like the danger motive. Sweeney Todd has the Dies Irae because it is foretelling the 'judgement day' upon people.

[crocodile 7,973]

I also recently realized it's in "Jack's Lament" from Nightmare Before Christmas (and of course "Making Christmas").

And, of course, this motif also drives the march in Mars Attacks!:

Oh btw Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances are so cool. Bought the latest SACD performance from LSO Live series which came out this week.

Karol

[indy4 155]

Elfman uses Dies Irae a lot, to the point where I don't always think it's intentional. It's in Iris, for instance. That said, I think the connection makes sense for Mars Attacks!

And a quick question: I've heard that Dies Irae is used in Goldsmith's Looney tunes score. Which track is it in?

[Jilal 569]

It also appeared in James Horner's "Futile Escape" from Aliens (somewhere at the end).

[KK 3,307]

I've been listening to a Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead recently, and I just remembered he uses the Dies Irae motif pretty prominently here and there (notably the first four notes).

[indy4 155]

It's one of my favorite usages of the theme. I love how it Rachmaninoff gradually exposes it, one note at a time. You don't even know that it's Dies Irae for sure until you're like half way through. When he finally reveals the first 8 pitches, it's very effective.