What exactly did William Ross do in Harry Potter the Chamber of Secrets

[tpigeon 3]

So, just to clarify, William Ross composed the score for COS from Williams' themes, right?

Ted

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,and he came up with new themes for Fawkes and dobby and The Flying Car

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

It seems that for the most part yes, but williams may have done some sketches (appart from the themes) for some scenes.

[tpigeon 3]

They probably just tacked Williams' name on their for publicity purposes.

Ted

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

They probably just tacked Williams' name on their for publicity purposes.

Ted

No, it really was more than that.

[King Mark 3,631]

Williams hasn't been composing his own scores for about a decade now.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

OH MY!

[Lurker 5]

Williams hasn't been composing his own scores for about a decade now.

And yet some people believe the last few years are better than 1977-1984 for Williams.

Neil

[Ollie 1,059]

Idiots!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

c-words without ears!

[Will 2,215]

So what have you guys decided about this? Was that supposed Ross-friend poster Helji reliable? 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's a John Williams score.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

As far as I'm aware, JW wrote about 40 mins. of new score, including at least four new themes. Ross then adapted the first score to fit the film (and a splendid job he did, too).

Personally, I don't care who did what, as it's a really good score. 'Nuff said.

[Arpy 4,145]

Not good enough, WE HAVE TO KNOW! 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Fake news!

[Gurkensalat 340]

1 hour ago, Richard said:

As far as I'm aware, JW wrote about 40 mins. of new score, including at least four new themes. Ross then adapted the first score to fit the film (and a splendid job he did, too).

Personally, I don't care who did what, as it's a really good score. 'Nuff said.

 

As far as I´m aware, that was the original plan, but somebody who looked up the original handwritten score found out that every cue has been written by Williams handwriting, and there are citations that Williams sent in new music still during recording. So I think that Ross only conducted and made the usual necessary changes during that process.

[Score 770]

1 hour ago, Gurkensalat said:

 

As far as I´m aware, that was the original plan, but somebody who looked up the original handwritten score found out that every cue has been written by Williams handwriting, and there are citations that Williams sent in new music still during recording. So I think that Ross only conducted and made the usual necessary changes during that process.

 

Without looking at the sketch scores, it will be impossible to know. As far as I know, the only person who has discussed the sketches publicly is Bill Wrobel, who published online his rundowns of the first two HP scores many, many years ago. He said what follows:

 

"However, when I looked at the sketches, I discovered that Williams did indeed compose all of the music. So what Ross did exactly besides some conducting work, I am not sure."

 

Now, this would seem quite a definitive statement, right? It is also consistent with something that Ross said in an interview some time ago. However, on 2016-9-19 Wrobel added a postscript to his original rundown, quoting a fellow researcher named "Jack" who claims that JW basically contributed the themes of the suite plus something else, but most of the score was written by Ross, who

 

"decided humbly to write "John Williams BMI" on the top of each sketch".

 

This looks strange to me, but who knows how these things work behind the scenes.

 

Since many years have passed between the original rundown and the 2016 update, it is not clear to me if the revised statement is substantiated by a look at the sketches, or it all relies on "Jack's words", whoever Jack is. Note that, if the second version is true, then looking at the orchestrated scores would maybe not reveal anything, as they would probably bear the writing "John Williams BMI" on them. Only the sketches would tell the truth. 

 

The only thing on which everybody (?) seems to agree is that JW wrote for sure all the cues that form the suite (Fawkes, Dobby, Gilderoy, Chamber). For all the rest, anyone is free to guess.

 

 

[Will 2,215]

OK, wow. So I guess we still don't know. @Jay, what do you think? 

 

I had previously thought Wrobel's comments had settled the matter and that indeed Williams had done everything, but I was looking at this thread last night and I realized maybe things weren't so straightforward. 

[Bespin 8,481]

I don't know the real story, but I always assumed that JW wrote all the music, on a certain preliminary version of the movie or just the scenario...

 

...Then Ross conducted it for the recordings sessions and adaptated each bit of it, to correct fit each final scene with the final montage, till the last version of the movie. And I assume that during this period, the two had discussions when there where major changes needed.

 

The music is by John Williams, he and only him.

 

After that, it's usual business. Cut his cut that, loop this, a transition here, returning back to the main theme... bla bla bla. When the music is written, and you only have to adapt it to each scenes... I'm not saying that all the work is done because the music is already written, but I'm saying that it's easier for an arranger to work with existing material, even better when he knows the composer very well and has a great relation with him, than to start from scratch.

 

Anyway, don't look for this album in my JW's discography as a conductor/performer... he doesn't conduct!

 

It's as much a John Williams album than a William Ross one.

 

COS belongs to the very short list of scores written by JW, but conducted by others.  And we are lucky, there are very very few!

 

Soundtracks conducted by others: http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/music/composer/others.htm

[Score 770]

39 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I don't know the real story, but I always assumed that JW wrote all the music, on a certain preliminary version of the movie or just the scenario...

 

The point is what it is meant by "writing", and to what extent "adapting" involves creative decisions, in this particular case. Reading again this whole thread, which dates back to many years ago, it is apparent that nothing is straightforward. A user who claimed to have the sketch in front of him said that most of the score had been written by Ross... which is at odds with what others have said in other occasions. Who is reliable, who is not?

 

In my opinion, we should just take the credits as given on the CD for good, and that's it. At the end, people may not even agree on the definitions of "composing" and "adapting" (the latter inevitably involves some composing), so the debate might not be objective even in the presence of the sketches. Maybe what Ross did is "composing" according to some people, and "adapting" according to others, even including himself!

 

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Maybe we'll get the answer in the liner notes of a future complete score release...

[Bespin 8,481]

I wonder why people don't ask what part of None but the brave was really composed by John Williams, and what was the real implication of Morris Stoloff in the recording process.

[King Mark 3,631]

The leaked sketches are in Williams handwriting  for all the  cues

[Will 2,215]

2 minutes ago, king mark said:

The leaked sketches are in Williams handwriting  for all the  cues

 

Is your source for that Wrobel's analysis? 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Maybe William Ross adapted his handwriting to Williams', too?

[Skelly 261]

This is what a John Williams sketch looks like. "1M1 Prologue Rev." for Chamber of Secrets.

 

 

Anyone who's taken a look at Williams's sketches knows that he's been sketching this way for decades. Same paper, same thin pen, etc.

 

This is what I'm pretty sure a William Ross sketch looks like. "8M2A Insert The Chamber Door Opens" for Chamber of Secrets (this is the cue when the bathroom sink opens up and reveals the hidden way).

 

 

Look at that. Thicker pen, very different handwriting, obviously a cue that borrows thematic material from the first film (heck, it even segues into tracked music), but it has "John Williams, BMI" written up there. I don't know for certain why Ross did that (though it fits in with Hellgi's assertion that Ross was very adamant about keeping it a Williams score and that he was merely an adapter) but I think we can at least say that Williams didn't personally put pen to paper for too many cues. That was Ross.

[Jay 37,359]

There are three different kinds of music in the film

 

1) Scenes that nobody wrote any music for.  Some of these scenes play with no score at all, some of these scenes play with music literally tracked in from HP1 (as in, the actual recording made for HP1)

 

2) Scenes Williams wrote brand new music for.   Sometimes he re-used HP1 passages as part of his new compositions, of course.  All of this music was conducted by Ross, and if the scene got re-edited after Williams' sketch was sent in, it was Ross who altered bars and/or tempo here or there to match the new timing of the scene

 

3) Scenes that Williams didn't have time to write anything for, so Ross conducted new cues.  These new cues are entirely made up of compositions Williams wrote, hacked up and re-tempoed/etc to match the scene in the film.

Ross didn't "write" anything.  Just conformed what Williams wrote to the final film.

[Score 770]

18 minutes ago, Skelly said:

This is what a John Williams sketch looks like. "1M1 Prologue Rev." for Chamber of Secrets.

 

 

Anyone who's taken a look at Williams's sketches knows that he's been sketching this way for decades. Same paper, same thin pen, etc.

 

This is what I'm pretty sure a William Ross sketch looks like. "8M2A Insert The Chamber Door Opens" for Chamber of Secrets (this is the cue when the bathroom sink opens up and reveals the hidden way).

 

 

Look at that. Thicker pen, very different handwriting, obviously a cue that borrows thematic material from the first film (heck, it even segues into tracked music), but it has "John Williams, BMI" written up there. I don't know for certain why Ross did that (though it fits in with Hellgi's assertion that Ross was very adamant about keeping it a Williams score and that he was merely an adapter) but I think we can at least say that Williams didn't personally put pen to paper for too many cues. That was Ross.

 

That's what I was talking about. It is of course impossible to mistake the two handwritings. For a cue like this one in Ross's handwriting, which is clearly based on the Three-Note Loop from HP1, for me we are talking about "music composed by JW, adapted by Ross" (however, others may call this "composing", as there is an element of originality). What people are wondering about is, how much of the score was done in this way, what about important cues like "Spiders", etc. Without having seen the sketches, everything leads me to believe that all the completely original material is by JW (so it was sketched as in the first example). The part done in the second way might me the larger part of the score, but it is still adaptation, according to the criterion discussed above. Otherwise they would have talked about co-composition.

 

[Bespin 8,481]

It's like you would ask Williams Ross to arrange parts of the final movement of Beethoven ninth symphony for a movie scene.

 

It still will be Beethoven... but rearranged.

 

I don't see any problem here.

 

No arranger/conductor would ever take the credits over Beethoven!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hello, Johnny. It's your uncle William. Time to pay the check.

[King Mark 3,631]

William Ross obviously arranged some othe HP1 music to fit it in the movie, but that wasn't what this thread was about initially. Helgii or whatever claimed he composed new music like the bombastic ending of Reunion of Friends , which is pretty much impossible . If Ross could do that cue he could do the next Star Wars score alone.

 

I've also heard William Ross scores and they're so below Williams level it makes claims like that even harder to believe

 

As for Williams writing only 40 minutes it's also impossible .He ended up writing much more because there's a lot more new music than 40 minutes

 

[publicist 4,643]

Congress needs to investigate!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

This is fake scoring!

 

Is there a complete score cue-list, or an analysis, that says what's new, and what's not?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Is this what you're looking for? The tracked material here is indicated by "Track"

 

Or are you looking for material that isn't reprised from the first score (even in rerecorded form)?

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

This is great. Thanks, Blood.

If I'm reading this right, it suggests that JW wrote much more than 40 minutes of original score, for COS.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

No, it only indicates that more than 40 minutes of music were recorded for this film. However, it does not indicate how much of that material JW wrote and how much of it Ross wrote, nor does it indicate the amount of material reprised from the first film but rerecorded for the second film.

[Holko 9,526]

Well, both sessions are out there, someone could do a cue-by cue analysis of every CoS cue after memorising the PS sessions, that'd at least tell us how much is reprised.

I could probably do it next week if nobody points out something like this that already exists.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

Thanks, both.

I think this is what some JWfaners want to know: exactly how much brand new music, was written for COS?

[publicist 4,643]

There are only insertions of HP1 material within the proper underscore that is unique to COS. This makes the whole discussion moot, anyway: it's strictly impossible that Ross hasn't contributed underscore because that would mean Williams wrote a, say, 3 minute cue with half of its running time missing, pointing to Ross to fill them up with old stuff (with a note attached 'don't write a note of music yourself, i have a canadian fan who will bust you!').

 

Does not plausible? Well, it isn't. In all probability Williams gave Ross certain parts to work on and did other stuff by himself (how much is up for debate). Goldsmith worked quite the same way on AFO and 'First Contact' and i see no reason this should be different.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

No, that's not true, that's impossible! The music sounds too good to be by anyone else but the Maestro himself!

[Jay 37,359]

The only thing I never understood was why the OST album contained some of those weird new-material-mixed-with-hodge-podge-HP1-passages, instead of entirely being fully fleshed out original HP2 compositions.

[publicist 4,643]

Because Williams worked like Ross, inserting old stuff when appropriate (or he felt so). He did exactly the same thing in Home Alone 2.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

True!

[Will 2,215]

23 hours ago, Skelly said:

I think we can at least say that Williams didn't personally put pen to paper for too many cues. 

 

Yeah, he uses pencil. 

[airmanjerm 78]

23 hours ago, Bespin said:

It's like you would ask Williams Ross to arrange parts of the final movement of Beethoven ninth symphony for a movie scene.

 

It still will be Beethoven... but rearranged.

 

I don't see any problem here.

 

No arranger/conductor would ever take the credits over Beethoven!

 

Just jerking your chain, Bespin.  

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

The only thing I never understood was why the OST album contained some of those weird new-material-mixed-with-hodge-podge-HP1-passages, instead of entirely being fully fleshed out original HP2 compositions.

He seemed to expand the first album by means of the second album. Every underscore that was used twice (in both movies) was either on the first album or on the second album. That's how I interpreted that.

[artguy360 1,843]

All I need to know is who wrote this bit of lovely underscore right here because it is one of the best musical bits from the CoS score:

 

 

[Skelly 261]

If we go by Hellgi's words, that was Ross. That little melody has always felt to me like someone trying very hard to imitate Williams's special "sound", but almost too hard. Not that it isn't wonderful, but that's always the impression I've gotten.

 

7 hours ago, Will said:

Yeah, he uses pencil. 

 

Oh, great! Now we're back to square one.

[Bespin 8,481]

8 hours ago, airmanjerm said:

 

Just jerking your chain, Bespin.  

 

Hehe