JW Orchestration

[Stohr1984 0]

Now from my prior knowledge i thought JW orchestrated everything himself. But from those BBC clips on you tube it seems he had an orchestrator for ESB. Does anyone have any clue what other films JW didn't orchestrate himself.

[King Mark 3,631]

William Ross didn't write new music for CoS.it says so in....oh what ,it the other topic.

If you listen to the doc,Williams says he fully orchestrated the sketches to ESB.Herbert Spencer was doing something,not sure what.Copying the score for full orchestra?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

*Scratches head*

Too busy praying at the JW Altar to read the thread, Mark?

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,I was on autopilot

[John Crichton 4]

William Ross didn't write new music for CoS

Williams uses orchestrators in every score, but his orchestrators are little more than copyists. As he says in the ESB doc, it's a timesaver.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yes,I was on autopilot

It happens to the best of us.

[Henry B 50]

Williams's orchestrators do more than copy. Sometimes Williams will write a part as vague as "for winds," and it's up to the orchestrators to determine which instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes, etc.?) should play the part and how many. Of course, working repeatedly for Williams whittles down these choices a lot, as one gets accustomed to his styles of orchestration and learns what is acceptable.

Or, in other words, Williams writes for fifteen or twenty voices, and his orchestrators expand that to an orchestral seventy or eighty voices; his orchestrators cover the intricacies of polyphony.

[Stohr1984 0]

Williams's orchestrators do more than copy. Sometimes Williams will write a part as vague as "for winds," and it's up to the orchestrators to determine which instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes, etc.?) should play the part and how many. Of course, working repeatedly for Williams whittles down these choices a lot, as one gets accustomed to his styles of orchestration and learns what is acceptable.

Or, in other words, Williams writes for fifteen or twenty voices, and his orchestrators expand that to an orchestral seventy or eighty voices; his orchestrators cover the intricacies of polyphony.

thank you, i've been trying to figure that out for ages!

[John Crichton 4]

Where's Marian's old sig? The one about Williams giving directons to his driver? That's all you need.

[scissorhands 16]

Jane Eyre and Missouri Breaks are 2 examples of Williams not using orchestrators. As well as all his concert works.

[oierem 152]

"Or, in other words, Williams writes for fifteen or twenty voices, and his orchestrators expand that to an orchestral seventy or eighty voices; his orchestrators cover the intricacies of polyphony."

That is basically. But be careful with the numbers, orchestal music doesn't have seventy or eighty voices: 5 for the strings (and possible divissi), maybe 3-4 for each woodwind instrument (but they may have the same voice anyways), same for the brass and the percussion... Definately less than seventy!

[Marcus 390]

Williams' sketches generally have 2-3 staves for strings, 2 for brass and 2-3 for winds, with additional staves often used for percussion and piano/synth/celesta.

The sketches are very detailed, and no real color, nor ANY counterpoint, is left to the orchestrators. The passages written for "winds" are simply passsages where an orchestrator either doubles runs at unisons and octaves, or applies a sort of "common sense approach", scoring harmonies in their acoustically and instrumentationally most natural and obvious way.

In other words, If Williams in a certain passage would want his oboes above his flutes, or would want a high bassoon solo above undulating clarinet and low flute tremolos, he would indicate it.

Looking at his sketches, I would have no problem whatsoever in "maximising" it to full orchestral size. There's NOTHING to be added, as far as music is concerned, and nothing of significance to be added as far as color goes.

For all practical purposes, his orchestrators are hands-on copyists, nothing more, and nothing less.

[AI 0]

Williams's orchestrators do more than copy. Sometimes Williams will write a part as vague as "for winds," and it's up to the orchestrators to determine which instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes, etc.?) should play the part and how many.

That's horseshit. What are your sources? In all the JW sketches I have seen, he has never written anything so vague. He has always defined what instrument and even the number.

[Josh500 1,615]

Williams's orchestrators do more than copy. Sometimes Williams will write a part as vague as "for winds," and it's up to the orchestrators to determine which instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes, etc.?) should play the part and how many.

That's horseshit. What are your sources? In all the JW sketches I have seen, he has never written anything so vague. He has always defined what instrument and even the number.

Ehhhh, sorry to interrupt, but where can I see one of those sketches???

[Jeshopk 8]

Williams's orchestrators do more than copy. Sometimes Williams will write a part as vague as "for winds," and it's up to the orchestrators to determine which instruments (flutes, clarinets, oboes, etc.?) should play the part and how many.

That's horseshit. What are your sources? In all the JW sketches I have seen, he has never written anything so vague. He has always defined what instrument and even the number.

Ehhhh, sorry to interrupt, but where can I see one of those sketches???

The ones I have seen were hand copied by Bill Wrobel. And although a few measures said WW(woodwinds abbrev.), it was clear he wanted Flutes, Clarinets and Oboes playing unison triads with Flutes 8va based on indications earlier. As Herb Spencer stated, if you look carefully it's all there. Besides no orchestrator of JW would ever get away with writing just oboes and clarinets or write in different octaves than indicated when they saw a "WW" indication. They'd write for all the woodwinds that were in that range and weren't being used. Even in the doc, Williams was clear about "3 piccolos" when talking to Herb.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Where is that quote about ROTJ where one orchestrator gave a young composer (son of bernstein? steiner? ) a cuesheet and said 'orchestrate this' and the young one said, 'orchestrate what? it's already complete...'

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Wasn't it actually explained in that very documentary?

Williams usually orchestrates himself, but uses an orchesterator if his schedule doesn't allow him to do it all himself (as was the case with ESB, apparently).

I think it's well-known that Williams' sketches are fairly complete.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Where is that quote about ROTJ where one orchestrator gave a young composer (son of bernstein? steiner? ) a cuesheet and said 'orchestrate this' and the young one said, 'orchestrate what? it's already complete...'

I think you are confusing two articles. The one with the "orchestrate what" quote is, if I remember correctly, referred to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. The one about ROTJ with a composer's son, I believe, is about the "ghostwritten cues" legend.

[Seth 67]

The ROTJ reference may refer to Thomas Newman. According to his biography at filmtracks.com, he somehow orchestrated the Darth Vader death scene, only to find that Williams' manuscript was so complete that his job was virtually pointless.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

We should make an sticky thread with all these articles that explains there things that get asked from time to time (COS, orchestration, rejected scores...) and put there links to the articles so we never loose them.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

The ROTJ reference may refer to Thomas Newman. According to his biography at filmtracks.com, he somehow orchestrated the Darth Vader death scene, only to find that Williams' manuscript was so complete that his job was virtually pointless.

This just proves that thinking you know something is the first step to being proven wrong.

[Frosty 0]

Here's one for you.

(Those of you with the scores to these, don't ruin it)

Desert Chase from Raiders was actually "orchestrated" by 2 different people. You can divide the cue into three distinct sections, but can you tell me where a different orchestrator took over.

It also happens in the end credits to Far and Away. Tell me where one orchestrator stopped and another took over.

A fun game...

[indy4 155]

Here's one for you.

(Those of you with the scores to these, don't ruin it)

Desert Chase from Raiders was actually "orchestrated" by 2 different people. You can divide the cue into three distinct sections, but can you tell me where a different orchestrator took over.

It also happens in the end credits to Far and Away. Tell me where one orchestrator stopped and another took over.

A fun game...

Desert Chase from the expanded version?

I would guess...1:45.

Or 2:29.

Or 3:51.

Or 4:34.

Or 4:59.

Any of those rigth?

Any by the way...how do you know this? I own the Raiders expanded score, but as far as I know, it says nothing about ochestration.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Um, perhaps because he has the score of the cue, as he implied?

[Frosty 0]

Here's one for you.

(Those of you with the scores to these, don't ruin it)

Desert Chase from Raiders was actually "orchestrated" by 2 different people. You can divide the cue into three distinct sections, but can you tell me where a different orchestrator took over.

It also happens in the end credits to Far and Away. Tell me where one orchestrator stopped and another took over.

A fun game...

Desert Chase from the expanded version?

I would guess...1:45.

Or 2:29.

Or 3:51.

Or 4:34.

Or 4:59.

Any of those rigth?

Any by the way...how do you know this? I own the Raiders expanded score, but as far as I know, it says nothing about orchestration.

I would say from the number of guesses that you can't tell where one "orchestrator" stops and another starts, thus Williams is doing the orchestrating. I will say that there are 2 different orchestrators and 3 parts of the cue that has been divided among these gentlemen. So it is either all Williams' orchestrations, or two very similar orchestrators. Which is more logical?

1:45 Division point. (division point=significant change in music, or a new section)

2:29 Nope

3:51 Nope

4:34 Nope

4:59 Division point

Keep guessing!

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I'm interested in your mention of the different orchestrators in the end credits from Far and Away I don't think I'll guess, since I'm very familiar with the piece and can't really discern anything that would indicate such a change in the orchestration, aside from the obvious division points as the various themes come into play.

Ray Barnsbury

[Frosty 0]

I'm interested in your mention of the different orchestrators in the end credits from Far and Away I don't think I'll guess, since I'm very familiar with the piece and can't really discern anything that would indicate such a change in the orchestration, aside from the obvious division points as the various themes come into play.

Ray Barnsbury

Actually I used Far and Away as an obvious example, although there really isn't a change in how the orchestra is used or sounds. the first section featuring the Chieftains was orchestrated by Alexander Courage, and the rest was orchestrated by Mace Neufeld.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Oh. That makes sense, I was expecting something more subtle!

Ray Barnsbury

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

its sounds all Williams music to me...

[AI 0]

One thing you should remember about Orchestrators, is that they are responsible for how the score looks. They are trained in a particular skill, that is making sure the instruments are in the right order, the presentation is acceptable within the definition of what an orchestral score should be.

It's an art in itself. just as engraving is. John Towner Williams is likely not an expert in those areas, because there are so many nuances to that craft.

[Frosty 0]

One thing you should remember about Orchestrators, is that they are responsible for how the score looks. They are trained in a particular skill, that is making sure the instruments are in the right order, the presentation is acceptable within the definition of what an orchestral score should be.

It's an art in itself. just as engraving is. John Towner Williams is likely not an expert in those areas, because there are so many nuances to that craft.

How can that be when he is a conductor himself?

[Marcus 390]

Again, Williams' orchestrators contribute nothing, as far as color or instrumentation; Williams' sketches already includes those.

The fact that other Neufeld-orchestrated scores have a williamsesque sound, has to do with Neufeld having picked up a trick or two from the maestro, or from other composers/directors/producers requesting a "Williams" sound.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Now that Neufeld and Courage are retired, I guess Williams' chief orchestrator is Conrad Pope, who works generally with Eddie Karam (former Pops arranger) and Randy Kerber.

[Marcus 390]

Neufeld's retired as well, huh? I didn't know that.

And I was completely oblivious to the fact that Kerber also works as an orchestrator!

Thank you for enlightening me!

[Salacius 7]

It's tough to tell what's going on with the orchestrations.

I would like to think that he does 90% of them and then orchestrators assign the given instruments and add the odd doubling here and there.

But I can't help thinking that Herbert Spencer who was an amazing orchestrator might have something to do with his sound. Since he started falling ill (which was around the time of Empire of the Sun) Williams' sound started changing. And it kept changing to the point that it was quite different to the classic scores.

Then again this might have been due to the fact that Williams himself changed his style of orchestration over the years.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Neufeld's retired as well, huh? I didn't know that.

And I was completely oblivious to the fact that Kerber also works as an orchestrator!

Thank you for enlightening me!

You're welcome, my apprentice

From what I remember, Neufeld's last credited project for JW was The Terminal, but I believe he didn't orchestrate too much in the years before too (on Bill Wrobel's Harry Potter score analysis, Neufeld is credited with the orchestration for "Hedwig's theme" only, if I remember correctly). I guess he gradually left the main duties to Conrad Pope and his other staff people (Eddie Karam, Larry Rench, Randy Kerber).

Kerber is also a top orchestrator, he works regularly for James Horner too.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Kerber is also a top orchestrator, he works regularly for James Horner too.

Doesn't he play piano in lots of scores too, and celeste in Potter?

Ray Barnsbury

[Elmo Lewis 6]

He's the next John Williams!

[AI 0]

How can that be when he is a conductor himself?

Because a conductor expects a score to be complete, with all the ironing out already done by the experts.

An orchestrator for Williams may not do much as far as arranging is concerned, but that is not their primary purpose. They specialize in the presentation and format of the score, for the conductor, and the copyists who make the parts. Even though Williams orchestrators don't seem to do much, they do in fact do a lot. They are hired for a reason, to pick up on anything thats not quite right and fix it, so the end result has the finesse that only an expert can give it.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Tim Simonec's description of an orchestrator:

click

[Frosty 0]

How can that be when he is a conductor himself?

Because a conductor expects a score to be complete, with all the ironing out already done by the experts.

An orchestrator for Williams may not do much as far as arranging is concerned, but that is not their primary purpose. They specialize in the presentation and format of the score, for the conductor, and the copyists who make the parts. Even though Williams orchestrators don't seem to do much, they do in fact do a lot. They are hired for a reason, to pick up on anything thats not quite right and fix it, so the end result has the finesse that only an expert can give it.

To a certain extent I agree, but you also have to remember that Williams himself has done orchestrations for some of the older film composers (Tiomkin comes to mind), plus his own orchestrations. I think he might be able to pull off the orchestral form format. Those of you who have the Charles Gerhardt recording of Empire Strikes Back, look at the picture on the back of the CD and notice what Williams is doing.

Frosty