HenryH 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Who influenced John Williams' composing voice? What composers did he "look up to?" Also, on a more random note...do you guys think that John Williams is so good thanks to natural, borne talent, or was his classical/jazz training also pivotal in developing his aptitude for music composition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Who influenced John Williams' composing voice?There are probably quite a few, and it depends on which style of JW you're talking about... but if I was only allowed to pick one it would be William Walton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Well you can hear the influence of the following; Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, Stravinsky, Korngold, Alex North, Herrmann and Prokofiev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryH 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 Well you can hear the influence of the following; Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, Stravinsky, Korngold, Alex North, Herrmann and Prokofiev.I can definitely hear how he may be influenced by Alex North; the other day, I was listening to Cinemagic, and Spartacus came on...at one point, I thought I was listening to a John Williams fanfare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Elgar seems to be a big influence to my ears. Jacck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 HerrmannWhen does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I'm thinking The Fury, maybe?- Marc, not well versed in Herrmann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 57 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Don't forget Bela Bartok.....listen to Johnny's "Return of the Jedi" (Approaching the Death Star) and Bartok's "Concerto for orchestra" opening movement.I'm thinking The Fury, maybe?- Marc, not well versed in Herrmann.Then how come you don't know "Row, row, row your boat"? :cool: Jacck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,263 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 HerrmannWhen does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque. Do you concur, Mr. Merkel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Williams also uses a similar string fugal section in the Cybertronics track on AI that recalls Bartok's amazing 4 part fugue section in Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Not a copy by any means but evocative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 HerrmannWhen does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque. Do you concur, Mr. Merkel?it's like a positive version of an Herrmann cue I also hear a lot of Bartok in tracks like the Well of Souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 57 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Because it is custom to be considerate to new members. That's rich coming from me I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Brian Tyler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Also, on a more random note...do you guys think that John Williams is so good thanks to natural, borne talent, or was his classical/jazz training also pivotal in developing his aptitude for music composition?I'm going to attempt this one: yes, of course his training was pivotal. Nobody is borne an orchestrator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Why do we have a new thread on this every time a new member joins?Ideally, new members would use the Search Form, but it's not exceptionally user-friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 HerrmannWhen does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque. Do you concur, Mr. Merkel?it's like a positive version of an Herrmann cue Ah, I see. Is it the one that starts at 3:48? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Ahh Thor has finally revealed himself as a member here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Brian Tyler.What's funny is that the new Indiana Jones teaser almost plays as an inside joke in reference to the October 14, 2007 FSM podcast:"If you take a theme like 'The Raiders March,' you can't take that and put that in some other movie, because people know it -- it's so strongly identified with Indiana Jones. But the theme from Deep Blue Sea [and Children of Dune], no matter how many times you use it in how many movies, nobody quite remembers what it's from, because it's so malleable." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Sometimes there are noticeable Shostakovich influences. Desert Chase has a motif that sounds very much like something out of the duel music from Hamlet, and the darker percussion-heavy writing from AOTC reminds me of the brilliant 11th symphony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Brian Tyler.What's funny is that the new Indiana Jones teaser almost plays as an inside joke in reference to the October 14, 2007 FSM podcast:"If you take a theme like 'The Raiders March,' you can't take that and put that in some other movie, because people know it -- it's so strongly identified with Indiana Jones. But the theme from Deep Blue Sea [and Children of Dune], no matter how many times you use it in how many movies, nobody quite remembers what it's from, because it's so malleable."I remember that! That's quite ironic, actually. Who'd have thought that this malleable theme, so commonly used in movies and trailers would be incorporated into an Indiana Jones trailer.Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrygollay 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 So : Alan Rawsthorne, William Walton, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Gustav Holst, Serge Prokofiev , Igor Stravinsky, Dmitri Shostakovitch, Bela bartok, Zoltan Kodaly, Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel, Gustav Mahler, Richard Strauss,Richard Wagner, Gyorgy Ligeti, John Adams, Samel Barber, William Schuman, Walter Piston, Howard Hanson, George Templeton Strong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Jerry Goldsmith.The man played piano for Goldsmith....he had to be inspired somewhere in there. I'd be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maglorfin 196 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 He also played piano for Henry Mancini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 But Jerry Goldsmith made John Williams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturgisPodmore 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Wasn't Williams mentored by Hermann to a certian extent?~Sturgis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 From what I understand, Williams is far more of a classical fan than a film score fan. Maybe that's why he doesn't sound like anyone else in his field (except imitators). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Maybe that's why he doesn't sound like anyone else in his field (except imitators).Korngold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Well, those still working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Well yes. I basically agree, but much of it probably comes from the fact that Williams is among the last composers from his generation. He does seem to have found a very distinct voice of his own (far more so than that in most of his very good and easily identifiable, but nevertheless "traditional"-sounding scores from the 70s and 80s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 JW's style can be traced back to several influences, due to his unique background in classical music, jazz and light music, the people whom he met and worked with, and the times he has lived in. I've categorized them as follows: I. His teachers, obviously, amongst whom Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Bobby van Eps, Rhosina Lhévinne, and composers he studied eg Percy Goetschius; also composer friends of his family eg Claude Thornhill. II. Golden Age composers for whom JW orchestrated and did studio work for, such as Alfred Newman, Franz Waxman, Adolph Deutsch, Hugo Friedhofer, Dmitri Tiomkin, Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Herrmann; orchestrator Conrad Salinger; also composers he admired such as Miklós Rózsa, Erich W. Korngold, Max Steiner, David Raksin, Alex North, Ron Goodwin. III. Jazz, light music, Broadway and friends in Hollywood working in this business such as André Previn, Leonard Bernstein and Henry Mancini. IV. Classical composers: 1. European and Russian composers of the 19th and 20th century amongst whom most obviously: Sergei Prokofiev, Igor Stravinsky, Gustav Mahler, Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel, Béla Bártok, Pjotr Ilyich Tschaikovsky 2. American classical composers such as Aaron Copland, Howard Hanson, Walter Piston, Elliott Carter, Charles Ives, Claude Thornhill, Russell Garcia 3. Less obviously classical atonal composers like Arnold Schoenberg, Alban Berg, Alexander Scriabin 4. English composers such as: William Walton, Gustav Holst, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Edward Elgar, Malcolm Arnold, Frederick Delius, Benjamin Britten 5. Other classical composers who he stated or who are known to be among his favorites: Joseph Haydn, Ludwig van Beethoven, Johannes Brahms, Richard Strauss V. Avant garde composers such as György Ligeti, Pierre Boulez, Edgar Varèse, Krzysztof Penderecki, Witold Lutosławski, not only in his concert works but in lot of his underscore as well. VI. Contemporary film composers whose music is used on temp tracks can serve as models for some of his film music - examples are David Newman, Patrick Doyle, Alan Silvestri. [updated 2023] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 1) Sergei Prokofiev2) Erich Wolfgang Korngold3) Igor Stravinsky4) Leonard Bernstein5) Gustav HolstTo a lesser extend:6) Dmitri Shostakovitch7) William Walton8) Gustav Mahler9) Richard Wagner10) Richard Strauss11) Claude Debussy12)Pjotr Ilyich Tschaikovsky13)Aram Khatchatrian14)Maurice Ravel15)Darius MilhaudMove William Walton up to the top and put Ravel in the top 5, and I think you have a good list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The list must include Hermann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Henry Buck said: The list must include Hermann. JW stated his admiration for Herrmann. Judging from his writing though I don't see many apparant influences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I hear Elgar's influence in stuff like Angela's Ashes and Seven Years in Tibet, I really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The list must include Hermann.JW stated his admiration for Herrmann. Judging from his writing though I don't see many apparant influences (like is the case with Elgar except for Throne Room.)I agree, and I think the OP has a 2-part question. 1. Who influenced his compositional voice, and 2. Who did he look up to.He probably looked up to Hermann, but I see very little direct influence on his music and not nearly as much as some other composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 In his early days, Claude Thornhill and a whole host of prominent jazz and light music arrangers and composers, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and just about everything that's in some way neoclassical and essentially tonal.Later these influences were purified through a more "Anglophile" filter; Walton (prominently!), Vaughan Williams, Finzi and, perhaps most importantly, not stylistically, but structurally and aesthetically; Elgar.Certainly the textural palette of the Polish avantgarde has been a considerable influence, and I'm guessing this must have happened actually quite early, i.e. basically when composers such as Lutoslawski and Pendercki rose to prominence. A similar surprisingly early influence is Takemitsu.Strauss/Korngold/Mahler/Wagner-type romanticism is actually less of a substantial influence. It might have been crucial to the musical universe of Star Wars, but it has less to do with Williams' style ("Star Wars" is actually one of the least representative late 70s Williams scores!!! His own signature is more clearly articulated in scores that might seem superficially more odd, stylistically speaking, such as Missouri Breaks ans Images). First and foremost, though, Jane Eyre is the early incarnation of Williams' mature style. Not in trems of idiom, but in terms of deeper musical technique (phrase structure, tonal design, etc. Also, it has one of the earliest fully formed "Williams scherzo"s.)Surely Henry Mancini, and Broadway and American light music in general has been influential to some aspects of his melodic writing, although usually cross-fertilized witha more neoclassical tendency.I think some of the last composers to have influenced Williams to some extent, might have been Corigliano and Adams.I think other film composers such as North, Steiner, Rosza, Korngold, Waxman and Herrmann could have been more superficial influences. Herrmann, I think, might have been more influential to Williams many years after he passed away. While Hermann was alive (and Williams and Herrmann were friends), I can imagine that Williams sort of took Herrmann for granted, in a way. And above all, Haydn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrygollay 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Also, it has one of the earliest fully formed "Williams scherzo"s.Alan Rawsthorne Symphony No 2 "country dance" ...Woaw !!!! I forgot Jean Sibelius his Smphony No 7 sounds with nods of Kryptonite !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 In his early days, Claude Thornhill and a whole host of prominent jazz and light music arrangers and composersYou're right here, of course, I forgot to mention those.Strauss/Korngold/Mahler/Wagner-type romanticism is actually less of a substantial influence. I think other film composers such as North, Steiner, Rosza, Korngold, Waxman and Herrmann could have been more superficial influences.And above all, Haydn.JW stated his admiration for Haydn indeed, and the influence goes as far as to form, but stylistically the two composers cannot be more different of course.As to Korngold, I must disagree. If there is any composer who stylistically resembles Williams, it is Korngold. This is paradoxically not very apparant in Korngold's film scores, however very much in his formal music. Who knows the violin concerto, knows what I mean: the colors and richness of orchestration and melody are almost as if Williams wrote them. And who ever has heard the Overture to Korngold's Baby Serenade, realizes this piece of music is actually the first Williams scherzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I've been very much an admirer of Korngold's concert music, and know all of it very well, but I really feel that Williams and Korngold are quite different. Korngold's orchestrational style has much of the same "brightness", but they're executed very differently. Korngold is a lot like Strauss, just much lighter, whereas Williams' orchestrational technique is actually not so very "romantic", although its effect can be. Harmonically, the two are also actually quite different, although Korngold also likes to embellish his main structures with auxiliary triads, and they both share an enthusiasm for parallell leading tones/appogiaturas, especially anything revolving around #4,b6 and b2.But Williams' harmonic style is generally much less triadically conceived.But I can understand that the last movement, or the main theme of the first movement, of Korngold's violin concerto, seem williamsesque. But is you look at Korngold's melodic structures, they are generally much looser, much more "amorpheus", whereas Williams tends to be very tight, very controlled and classical.But this is very silly, nit-pickety petit-maitre'esqe of me! There is of course a great connection between the two, but this is mostly felt in certain parts of Williams' film output, and in his concert music not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Also, it has one of the earliest fully formed "Williams scherzo"s.I believe it is the scherzo writing actually, more than any other kind of writing, that was greatly influenced by William Walton. Listen to his Partita and 2nd Symphony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrygollay 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 And the scherzo on the 8th Symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams ( 1st movement ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthetic 0 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 You could probably break down every cue by every composer and search for influences. Sometimes the quote is more direct than others, though Williams isn't nearly as guilty of this as some other composers. The lush, romantic sound that I think of when I think of his music (Superman Love Theme, Harrys Wonderous World, etc.) is his own creation. I can't think of a piece of classical or film piece that used this sound before he had, the warm extended jazz chords used for a love theme. Of course I'm sure someone with encyclopedic knowledge of scores can prove me wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I believe it is the scherzo writing actually, more than any other kind of writing, that was greatly influenced by William Walton. Listen to his Partita and 2nd Symphony.Also, "Johannesburg Festival Overture" is one of Walton's most Williams-esque pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 1) William Walton2) Sergei Prokofiev3) Erich Wolfgang Korngold4) Igor Stravinsky5) Leonard Bernstein6) Gustav HolstTo a lesser extend:7) Dmitri Shostakovitch8) Gustav Mahler9) Richard Wagner10)Richard Strauss11)Claude Debussy12)Pjotr Ilyich Tschaikovsky13)Aram Khatchatrian14)Maurice Ravel15)Darius MilhaudMove William Walton up to the top and put Ravel in the top 5, and I think you have a good list.Walton moved to the top. If you can make a nice Ravel-influence video I'd consider the latter too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyy38 21 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 It might be just me but I think I've heard about Bernard Hermann being the go-to person for Williams more times than just about anyone,both in print and in his music. I'll list some movies that Williams did the music for,in order from easiest to hardest in terms of scoping out Mr. Hermanns influence on Williams. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. WAY easy because Williams just totally lifted this From North by Northwest.Note for note. Star Wars :Episode 4 Somewhat easy but again,in my mind,Williams found inspiration from NBNW.Hint-It happens in the end credits for Star Wars. The Fury Getting harder,but if you've read about this movie,you already know what I'm talking about. Jaws Hardest.If Bruce the shark wasn't in the water,he should have been taking a shower,if you know what I mean. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 It might be just me but I think I've heard about Bernard Hermann being the go-to person for Williams more times than just about anyone,both in print and in his music. I'll list some movies that Williams did the music for,in order from easiest to hardest in terms of scoping out Mr. Hermanns influence on Williams. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. WAY easy because Williams just totally lifted this From North by Northwest.Note for note. Star Wars :Episode 4 Somewhat easy but again,in my mind,Williams found inspiration from NBNW.Hint-It happens in the end credits for Star Wars. The Fury Getting harder,but if you've read about this movie,you already know what I'm talking about. Jaws Hardest.If Bruce the shark wasn't in the water,he should have been taking a shower,if you know what I mean. Good Luck. You got the order wrong. The last two are the most obvious Herrmann-vibed Williams scores. The first two, on the other hand, are groundless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I'm thinking The Fury, maybe?- Marc, not well versed in Herrmann.No The Fury is based on William Walton's Presto Capriccioso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 No, Herrmann! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 57 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Are you sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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