''Shameless" cues - is there such a thing?

[metaphor123 0]

Upon reading some posts here and in other film score messageboards, Ive become aware that many people consider cues that succesfully manipulate emotions (like 'Across the Stars' 'Monica's Theme' perhaps all of 'Schindler's List' and especially the 'Flying Theme' from E.T.) are considered 'shameless.'

Why should they be considered shameless? I thought about this question, and at first I agreed to an extent. Strangely, though, I consider 'Across the Stars' shameless, whilst I don't think the same of E.T. Although both have moved me to tears (yes, I'll admit it), I get the feeling Across the Stars does it by cheating - though I can't explain how. Is a cue shameless only because it manages to evoke a raw emotion? Isn't that what film music is meant to do? Or is it shameless because it uses tricks known to easily give a response (a solo violin to evoke despair, a full brass section for majesty and triumph, etc etc.).

[Morn 8]

Good question. I'd say the finale of ET is shameless. And anything by Horner.

But anyway, what is exactly is shameless? cliched chords? cliche full stop? simplicity? Trying too hard to make you cry rather than being profound?

[King Mark 3,631]

That's the FSM board,and why I rarely post there.

K.M.who replied to that point at FSM.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I'd say it's shameless if it obviously manipulates you in a scene that's too serious or in a scene that wouldn't at all make you feel like that without the music. When the music "goes too far", so to say.

Marian - who thinks shameless cues can be good or can suck, depending mostly on the type of film.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

There are many cues in scores like AOTC and Minority Report I would consider "shameful", because they are below the maestro's ability.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd say it's shameless if it obviously manipulates you in a scene that's too serious or in a scene that wouldn't at all make you feel like that without the music.  

.

so what your saying is that films shouldn't have any scores and work as well without them :?

K.M.Who listened to the E.T. finale without music and it was completely crappy,and so would the rest of the movie without Williams brilliant score.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I completely disagreee with calling music shameless if it evokes emotion from you. Isn't that its purpose? Even if the movie wouldn't evoke those emotions on their own. Film music is supposed to enhance the visuals, and if it creates a feeling that isn't already there, it's the movie that has the problem. I listen to music so it can evoke emotion in me. If it does that, I would call it successful, not shameless.

Ray Barnsbury

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

so what your saying is that films shouldn't have any scores and work as well without them :?

No. I'm saying there are cases where the music shouldn't use it's power too much. Movies like E.T. and Saving Private Ryan (for example) are very different. E.T. is a larger-than-life, adventure-type movie. The score is perfect. Other movies are more real, and can get too "hollywoodized" if the music trivializes them by getting too emotional. Not necessarily SPR, though I think much of the music there didn't add anything to the movie but rather distracted from it - it's still rather nice on album, it's just not the movie for much music.

Marian - hoping this makes it clearer.

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

[King Mark 3,631]

I get your point.To me Shindler's List has some music as you describe,a film that didn't even need a score.

K.M.

[WLW 0]

This is a little OT, and not a direct comment to the posts, but related none the less.

I have been scoring small indie projects for about 6 years. Not that this applies totally to all films of course, but one thing I run across often is that, in addition to enhancing or creating emotional guidance, many of these films require music to help with pacing.

Visually, it is hard to watch a film and know when a scene will end. But music, can guide you toward places. It can tell you that a scene and it's implications are complete (or incomplete). It can fuse together a film whose ideas are scattered.

As film score fans, I think we should all get the opportunity to watch some films we are very familiar with and love, without any score at all.

For many films, without the score you'd be surprised at how uninvolved you are in the picture. They tend to feel endless, often unfocused. That "endless" feeling actually works great for Hitchcock's The Birds, things seems to "float" or linger, interesting exercise in suspense. But I think most other films really need music to glue them together.

WLW

[Morn 8]

I completely disagreee with calling music shameless if it evokes emotion from you.  Isn't that its purpose?  Even if the movie wouldn't evoke those emotions on their own.  Film music is supposed to enhance the visuals, and if it creates a feeling that isn't already there, it's the movie that has the problem.  I listen to music so it can evoke emotion in me.  If it does that, I would call it successful, not shameless.

Ray Barnsbury

It's not if it evokes an emotion from you, it's the way it evokes an emotion from you. If someone uses all the tricks and all the cliches, it's called shameless, I think. Or is over the top.

And note that if Williams is shameless, it's usually because Spielberg is too.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I completely disagreee with calling music shameless if it evokes emotion from you.  Isn't that its purpose?  Even if the movie wouldn't evoke those emotions on their own.  Film music is supposed to enhance the visuals, and if it creates a feeling that isn't already there, it's the movie that has the problem.  I listen to music so it can evoke emotion in me.  If it does that, I would call it successful, not shameless.

Ray Barnsbury

It's not if it evokes an emotion from you, it's the way it evokes an emotion from you. If someone uses all the tricks and all the cliches, it's called shameless, I think. Or is over the top.

And note that if Williams is shameless, it's usually because Spielberg is too.

So, the only way it's ok to write emotional music is if it's different and original? I can see how some people might think that, but I really don't care. Thanks for explaining.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morn 8]

There's more to it than that, I know people have called Schindler's List shameless because it uses too many tricks like themes based on all the sad intervals, calling it exaggerates so much that is seems unreal. Saying that like mahler can be just as emotional while being more 'real'.

[Uni 306]

There are two lines of reasoning to this, I think. The first has to do with the viewer's interpretation and reaction, the second with the composer's scoring choices.

First, there are some people (particularly men, though not exclusively) who, for whatever reason, deliberately distance themselves from anything that might provoke an emotional reaction. Perhaps they don't want to appear weak, don't want to acknowledge that sort of vulnerability, whatever. So they hold themselves above such petty emotions - and resent anything that draws out their feelings in spite of their best efforts. I've known people like this who would use similar terminology (though probably not "shameless" - the word in itself is below them) to describe musical accompaniment that might cause such inadvertent passions to arise. In these cases, it's obviously not the composer's fault for trying to infuse the project with authentic ardor; he's just doing his job, and the rest of us thank him for it.

There are, however, times when a composer certainly does go way too far over the top, trying to bleed a scene for every last emotion he thinks is there - whether it is or not. He believes the director can't fulfill the requirements of dramatic intent without his help; the audience must be shown that the hero is falling in love, that the soldier is sad that his best friend lies dying on the field of battle, that the end of the world is imminent, and so on. He fancies himself an organ grinder of silent film era, thinking that elements like dialogue, sound effects and subtext do not exist and cannot be communicated save that he should deign to provide them. Scoring like this calls immediate attention to itself, is instantly distracting, and separates itself entirely from the very story it should be supporting. You don't often see prime examples of this outside the B-movie realm (where the practice flourishes), but from time to time even a very good composer will insert himself too far into the scene, almost to the point where he very grants himself a little round sign-language-window in the corner of the screen; and there he stands, wildly gesticulating, trying to get you to understand the meaning of the action.

In either case, I'm not sure that "shameless" is the right word for it, since I don't know that shame is something the composer ought to be feeling for his work, even if it is a hundred decibals to the wind. In the former case, it's the viewer's loss in choosing to live a passionless life; in the latter, it's just a matter of poor performance. As for the concept of a musical "cliche" or "trick", I am at a total loss. I find it impossible to imagine a composer bent over his staves, grinning wickedly to himself, thinking, they'll never see this coming....heh, heh.... They do the best job they can; sometimes it isn't enough (or it's way too much).

I'm with those of you (especially you, Mr. Barnsbury) who agree that music is meant to evoke emotion, and that allowing such things to sweep us away is one of the premier joys in life - and anytime a composer connects with his audience, the last thing he should feel is shame.

- Uni

[UCFKevin 0]

I think the word "manipulative" is really a worthless word.

So, the music is MAKING you feel sad or it MAKES you cry?

In essence, you're blaming the music or the movie for making you feel the way you do when you hear it or watch it, against your will? You don't WANT to be sad but you can't help it because of the music manipulating your emotions?

I truly cannot understand this reasoning. It sounds like a weak defense.

I feel the way I feel due to my own accord when I listen to music or watch movies. I don't cry against my will. I can't be coerced into something like that.

Maybe I"m just misreading everything and taking this too seriously....

[Morn 8]

I find it impossible to imagine a composer bent over his staves, grinning wickedly to himself, thinking, they'll never see this coming....heh, heh....

Haha, it's not really like that at all, it's really a lack of creativity so they just use the standard techniques.

And with your first point, sometimes I like it when the music over takes the film.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Well said Uni, as always.

often times emotional response is equated with crying. Crying is equated with weakness. I see it just the opposite, a man in this case afraid to show his emotions is a weak being, more concerned about appearances than what is really going on.

That said, I can agree that JW's score to E.T. is shameless. Shameless in that I have no shame being completely caught up in the film and carried along its journey. I say manipulate me, I am yours when I hear this most wonderful score. And not all the emotions in E.T. are tear inducing, though it is very sad and can cause tears, it also is so funny that I cried tears. It is exhilerating to the point of heart palpatations.

Cadillac of the Skies moves me in many ways, as does Parade of the Slave Children, the Love theme from Superman, Journey to the Island, and the ending of Close Encounters. Along the way I experience ehileration, joy, anger, love, sadness, and many others. I allow music to do to me what it should. Sometimes you must actively listen to the music without distractions, don't analyze it, instead feel it. I've been told you can do both at the same time, but I disagree. One is of the heart and the other the mind. Feel the music first, analyze it later.

[Morn 8]

The heart and mind are just parts of a one that works together. And I agree some what Joe, except when something is overly dumbed down or cliched.

Morn - Who doesn't believe in yin and yan

[Uni 306]

Your best post in ages, Joe - particularly the insightful (and absolutely true) observation that fear of emotional display is a far greater weakness than the display itself.

- Uni

[Trumpeteer 302]

Marian and Joe have explained it best here. The job of film music, I think, is to add more emotion. If you're sitting there during a comedy and not laughing or crying during a particularly moving death scene, you're not human.

Granted, some of the most emotional scenes have not had music under them. But many of them would not have been worse had music been added.

As for me, a shameful cue provokes the opposite response it's supposed to generate. Like the fading music as Padme pulls away from Anakin's kiss. To this day, I almost burst my appendix trying not to laugh. And I doubt we're supposed to.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Some would say that "feeling" and "thinking" go hand in hand, or are, in fact, one and the same. (Pointless aside -- The following Daniel Webster quote popped into my head when I wrote the preceding statement: "Libery and Union, Now and Forever, One and Inseparable!")

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Some would say that "feeling" and "thinking" go hand in hand, or are, in fact, one and the same.

I think the Vulcans who visit this board would not agree.

[Uni 306]

As for me, a shameful cue provokes the opposite response it's supposed to generate. Like the fading music as Padme pulls away from Anakin's kiss. To this day, I almost burst my appendix trying not to laugh. And I doubt we're supposed to.

Again, I don't know about the epithet "shameful", but there's no arguing your example. That has to be one of the biggest unintentional laughs in recent cinema history - and perhaps the biggest that Williams himself was a part of (though again, my first impulse is to blame Lucas for the idea).

- Uni

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hear, hear.

That was horrible...I was watching at a naturally rowdy first showing, and not a soul in that theater could restrain himself...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, that was wonderfull, best thing in the whole film, i think.

Stefancos-

[UCFKevin 0]

The pullaway in AOTC? I'm pretty sure it's meant to be laughed at.....

I certainly found it humorous.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Nicely said, Uni and Joe. I'm like you in that when I listen to music, I think "Take me and do what you will with me!"

Ray Barnsbury-who realizes that could be taken wrong

[Morn 8]

As for me, a shameful cue provokes the opposite response it's supposed to generate. Like the fading music as Padme pulls away from Anakin's kiss. To this day, I almost burst my appendix trying not to laugh. And I doubt we're supposed to.

:? That's not funny at all, I think it works quite well.

Some would say that "feeling" and "thinking" go hand in hand, or are, in fact, one and the same.

Exactly, that's what I said.

I think the Vulcans who visit this board would not agree.

Vulcans are not real.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Vulcans are not real.  

and neither are you Morn.

[Morn 8]

Of course I am! :roll:

[Romão 2,274]

The pulling off of Across the Stars in that scene worked perfectly. It generated the exact same response it was meant to.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Unless posts can appear from thin air ....

I think Morn is real.

[Romão 2,274]

LOL

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Unless posts can appear from thin air ....

I think Morn is real.  

William we are all just strokes of a keyboard here.

We are all just figments of Ricards imagination. Come to think of it, Ricard must be one sick puppy.