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Mr. Breathmask

The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Thread

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yeah i saw the 7 chandeliers too, but I think that was a church, and a bible, and the priest didnt look like a rabi...

But there was not a single cross visible...

Definately i thought Indy was by the least christian.

If this movie has made him jew, i think Spielberg got over the top with that.

But maybe Marion is Jew, Abner=munich...

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yeah i saw the 7 chandeliers too, but I think that was a church, and a bible, and the priest didnt look like a rabi...

But there was not a single cross visible...

Definately i thought Indy was by the least christian.

If this movie has made him jew, i think Spielberg got over the top with that.

But maybe Marion is Jew, Abner=munich...

how can he be jewish hen he knows that there WAS a Jesus and he drank from the cup the king of the kings

;)

or am i mixing up something? *gg*

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Jesus was a Jew himself, you know. ;)

Karol

yes but in cotrary to others he was the messiah.... or just a carpenter entertaining people... just like Harrison Ford!

Oh my.. sean connery might give me a slap in the face for blasphemy now! :(

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Yeah, I would just say it was just a straight-up Christian church. Probably no particular denomination.

Did anyone else wonder about how Indy's character was going to be exactly? It seemed like his arc over the course of the first three films was, for one thing, finding his faith.

It isn't explicitly referenced in the film, but I think that in that regard, the alien angle was actually worked well, because it gave Indy the opportunity to start off skeptical. If it had been a religious artifact, especially of Judeo-Christian (or even Hindu) origin, it wouldn't really be so hard for him to accept. At the same time, though, the alien storyline is so well entrenched in the ancient ruins and religion motif, that it isn't so hard to accept in an Indiana Jones film, I thought. If I recall correctly, the Saucer Men From Mars script was way more blatantly sci-fi, so it's good that there isn't any major dose of sci-fi at all until the very end of that storyline.

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So maybe someone has read my harsh first critisism.. well I am really dissapointed now... by MYSELF!

I was convinced by my father to watch this movie today with him... so first time for him and second time ffor me.

He really loved it and I did love it too! ;)

(...)

I found Illumination..... ;)

Good for you :( Indeed la donna e mobile ;)

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good observation, Delorean

About the wedding i think that it also is somewhat an 'aseptic' thing, i mean it could be any judeo-christian religion.

Are the seven caldels exclusive to judaism, i think i saw somewhere that they could be also from chrisitianity.

I hope this is not agaisnt the rules, after all we are not debating religions....

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I saw this film Thursday afternoon and again yesterday evening. Upon my first veiwing, I liked it but I wasn't sure it felt like Indiana Jones. I mean, there was a nuclear bomb explosion, aliens for heaven's sake, and Indy got married?! I think I was too caught up in wondering what would happen and just analyzing it to really enjoy it. I didn't get the feel of any flow to the movie and the end caught me off guard.

However, the second viewing erased my doubts and I realized this really is an Indiana Jones movie!

Though I was suprised by "Hound Dog" opening the film, I found the titles to be simply magnificent. It was very 50's and the look of the words themselves, especially when "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" came up, was really great and old-timish. I think the alien motif is tied together nicely throughout the whole film, as we see it begin briefly in the warehouse seen, which, after Cate Blanchet's wonderful reveal, becomes a great action sequence. (The Ark Theme heard as the doors open and when we see the Ark itself is simply brilliant by the way. Too funny!) While the weapons testing scene looks a little weird with Indy running around that fake neighborhood, I really like the amazing shot of the mushroom cloud set to some grand and forboding Williams music. Also, I have no problem with the refrigerator bit. Yeah, it's incredibly unrealistic, but I honestly laughed more at the giant cliff they fell off in Temple of Doom. It's like, "Yeah, he's Indiana Jones. He just did that."

I, too, was jarred by seeing Indy in a t-shirt; nothing wrong with it, just funny.

I like the government referrences, though like some have said, I also wish this subplot had been developed and resolved. When I saw this Max fellow, for a moment I wondered if they were trying to replace that Indy staple Marcus Brody, but then I saw his picture on the wall and smiled. (Also, seeing Connery's picture on Indy's desk was pretty much amazing, as well. :lol: ) Once Mutt enters, the real plot picks up and we get some more mystery aspect to the story, then the great line "Get that Greaser!" Haha! I actually wish, though, that the Williams action cue would have started with the fight and not had to pick up after the song snippet ended; I found this a bit awkward. The chase through Acedemia was quite brilliant, with all the terrified bystanders and that great in-one-side-of-the-car-out-the-other bit, and I laughed for almost a minute after Brody's head rolls into the Rusky's lap, with that great smile on his face; he was still there to help Indy and stick it to the bad guys! Also, the scene ends with the brilliant line "If you want to be a good archeologist, you've gotta get out of the library!" as the tenured professor Dr. Jones rides off on a motorcycle. Excellent!

Then we get more mystery and the nostalgia-trip of a map sequence, which was of course a treat. The Mayan ruins scene was very nice, it really felt like Indiana Jones, with all the kreeping around in the caves and hidden doors and such. Then we finally see the cyrstal skull: a really creepy-looking artifact. (I also agree that we should have discovered its powers later in the movie, although knowing what it can do gives more urgency to the jungle chase when they have to get it back.) The discussion about psychics and aliens in the tent is creepy, and I LOVE the exchange "Be careful. You might get exactly what you wish for."/"I usually do."

Seeing Marion at the camp was good, and Indy's "well, shucks!" reaction to her appearance was priceless. I didn't expect the (inevitible) Mutt-is-Indy's-son "suprise" to come so early in the film, but I think it worked here, and what a great situation to do it in! I also love how when she tells Indy, he freaks out about her not making him finish school after his previous "follow your dreams!" comment. The snake bit is great, also. More bickering between Marion and Indy is fun, and when it plays her theme to the line "They weren't you, honey," and we see Marion's great smile, that is pure magic. The jungle chase seen was top-notch Indy action, and it certainly went over the top in its anics, as it should have; WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU EXPECT IN AN INDIANA JONES MOVIE? I do agree, however, that it would have been nice to see Indy doing some of those crazy stunts, or Mutt actually swinging on a real vine instead of CGI, but these are small problems with what is really a classic Indy action sequence with great moments from Irina, follwed by another Indy staple: bugs! They were clearly CG, which took away a bit of the fun, but I didn't mind it really, and the Rusky's death was pretty gross (after a nice fistfight with Indy!). More great over-the-top silliness with the tree-bending and waterfall scene, and then we reach the finale.

I wish there would have been more time with the natives; a pyramid action scene with Mayans would have been great fun. The opening of the temple is a really great sequence; I love the dark, driving music when the gold starts pouring from the obelisk and then the temple is opened; it's quite wonderful. The retracting stairs are another great booby trap (which the Ruskies apparently float down afterwards). The city of gold was cool, and the crystal skeletons chilling. Irina's quest for truth finally causes her demise (which looks pretty damn neat), and the protaganists' escape ("I don't think we wanna go that way.") lends to the movie's moral: too much knowledge can kill you, be happy with the mystery. The final climactic shot of the saucer rising into the air with rocks and dirt swirling in a cyclone around it was pretty phenomenal, especially with Williams blarin' the old brass.

The wedding scene isn't a problem! I mean Indy is in his 60's and he really needs to settle down. The door blowing open and the hat landing on Mutt's shoe is a nice touch, but I'm SOOO glad he didn't get to put it on. Harrison Ford is Indiana Jones, not some newcomer kid! This is an appropriate ending to a good movie and an excellent series. The main problems with this film are that there's not enough reconnecting with Marion, the blacklisting subplot goes nowhere, and there's no real life-or-death-decision scene. These, however, are less important to an Indiana Jones movie than top-notch action, witty exchanges, a memorable villain, great music, the quest for an artifact of unthinkable power, and an overall sense of fun and adventure, all of which Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull has. B+

~Sturgis

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I don't think Indy's alleged faith has anything to do with these movies.

You did watch Last Crusade, right? "It's time to ask the question: What do you believe?" There are doses of the theme throughout as well--TOD has him moving past the "fortune and glory" and seeing something bigger going on. As a prequel to Raiders, this may seem contradictory to the "hocus pocus" lines in his house, but others have observed that when faced with something that potentially frightening or major, you might try to deny it later on. Ford's acting is terrific the way he, when asked "What's that coming out of [the Ark]?", uncomfortably replies "Lightning. Fire. Power of God or something." He doesn't really want to face it. Even after his encounter with the Ark, we wind up in LC with it coming to the place where he has to answer that question.

It's not like the films showcase him going to church or anything like that, but I guess I could say it's his coming to grips with the concept of a higher power. And of course, references to faith and religion in a non-mythical/fantastical context are sprinkled throughout. "Why do you seek the Cup of Christ? Is it for His glory, or for yours?" It's not the primary point of the films, but there's certainly a layer of that element. That's what makes these films so great, is that they're enjoyable on so many levels. They're perfect popcorn films, they're wonderfully crafted, but they also have levels of character development and themes.

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I think I worded that a bit poorly. I don't mean to say that that IS Indy's arc, but rather ONE arc that he goes through in the films. It's an underlying current of that coming to grips. And it isn't necessary to catch for you to get the films, but it is most certainly there.

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I think I worded that a bit poorly. I don't mean to say that that IS Indy's arc, but rather ONE arc that he goes through in the films. It's an underlying current of that coming to grips. And it isn't necessary to catch for you to get the films, but it is most certainly there.

You worded it in a very right way! But almost nobody care about other levels with this TKOTCS film.

Viva primitivism. Stupid fun means "Great!" today. :rolleyes:

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Having been married twice it looked

like a traditional wedding.

While I can see the point being made with the Indy's personal story arc, it was presented rather poorly in this film.

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Well the 1st time indy married it was aboard a ship and with the captain as the 'priest', so no religious connection there. BUT they marry with Corcovado's Christ in the foreground and the bride says it fitting as their church.

So at least before the movie indy Was christian, and if nothing says the contrary it remains so...

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Indy was married? What?

I know that happened in the books, but it seems like they probably aren't counting those, especially since

Indy refers to Charlie's wife Deirdre, which I believe was the name of Indy's wife in the books. I suspected that to be a nod.

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(...)

Viva primitivism. Stupid fun means "Great!" today. :lol:

It has always been this way.

Not with

Jaws

Star Wars

Close Encounters

Alien

The Empire Strikes Back

Raiders of the Lost Ark

E.T.

Return of the Jedi

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

Back to the Future

Terminator

Aliens

RoboCop

Predator

The Abyss

Die Hard

Who Framed Roger Rabbit

Back to the Future part II

Back to the Future part III

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Total Recall

Batman

Terminator 2

Batman Returns

Jurassic Park

Starship Troopers

The Fifth Element

Contact

Titanic

The Matrix

Gladiator

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

Signs

Catch Me If You Can

The Lord of the Rings

Just what comes to my mind first when we talk about Entertainig Blockbusters that are truly Great!

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(...)

Viva primitivism. Stupid fun means "Great!" today. :lol:

It has always been this way.

Not with

Jaws

Star Wars

Close Encounters

Alien

The Empire Strikes Back

Raiders of the Lost Ark

E.T.

Return of the Jedi

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

Back to the Future

Terminator

Aliens

RoboCop

Predator

The Abyss

Die Hard

Who Framed Roger Rabbit

Back to the Future part II

Back to the Future part III

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Total Recall

Batman

Terminator 2

Batman Returns

Jurassic Park

Starship Troopers

The Fifth Element

Contact

Titanic

The Matrix

Gladiator

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

Signs

Catch Me If You Can

The Lord of the Rings

Just what comes to my mind first when we talk about Entertainig Blockbusters that are truly Great!

If so, then I'd add KotCS to that list. I just don't find it "more stupid fun" than Temple of Doom or The Last Crusade, BttF, Fifth Element, not to mention Total Recall , Predator...

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If so, then I'd add KotCS to that list. I just don't find it "more stupid fun" than Temple of Doom or The Last Crusade, BttF, Fifth Element, not to mention Total Recall , Predator...

Couldn't share your opinion. I find KotCS in ligue of Mummy franchise, National Treasure or Pirates of the Carribean sequels. I don't think stupid fun necessary means Bad! It's just mediocre. This is what truly gifted Spielberg achieved with KotCS. This makes me sad, and some other people here too.

Oh and all those movies you mentioned have artistic, intellectual OR emotional levels which KotCS failed to reach.

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The first time I saw the film, I thought it was great, but nowhere near the level of the originals.

After the second, I'm convinced that with a couple more viewings, I may consider it to be as good as the originals.

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Hmm...that's a hard thing for me. It is definitely very good. Despite its flaws, I still enjoy it from start to finish in some capacity. But the lack of depth comparable to the originals is the real thing holding it back in my mind. To really elevate this film, it needs to do two things:

1.

Indy and Marion's reconnection needs to have some real meat to it. Now, on second viewing, I found that the reconnection is primarily built of two moments: "They weren't you, honey," and the near-kiss after the receding staircase incident. Between the two, it's like the connection is unspoken--they have never truly stopped caring about the other, though they've been able to put it aside enough to live. Being in those situations brought them together. And as a sentimental romantic, just the fact that Indy and Marion end up being married and have a son is good for me. But to really step things up, there needs to be a scene of them with real dialogue, and not just fighting because they really care. Ideally, they would've gotten away at the end of the snake pit scene, and then camped out for the night once they found a good hiding place. Maybe this would've involved a little more whip usage...I wouldn't necessarily mind them getting found by some scouts and have Indy kick a little more butt. Then Mutt and Oxley can fall asleep, and Indy and Marion have a real heart-to-heart. Then the payoffs would be the near-kiss and then the wedding. The next morning, they set out to recapture the crystal skull, but get captured themselves. The convoy/jungle chase sequence would then pretty much go as in film.

2.

The family needs some kind of sober bonding incident. Ideally, this would probably be that "crisis/dilemma" scenario that people have commented about having been missed in the film. The Jungle Chase has hints of this, but it's not developed for that purpose, and doesn't really fulfill it. Last Crusade worked so well because there was a lot of humor, but push came to shove also with the tank sequence and the "Let it go" scene at the end. The family dynamic is very enjoyable, but, again, for it to really elevate things, it needs to have a dose of gravity to it as well.

3ish. This isn't quite as essential for me, but I didn't understand why

Mac was actually with the Russians. In the tent scene, he seems sincere about the money side of things, and not really being allied with them in a sense of loyalty, to the point that when he makes the Berlin comment, he really looks like he's just about been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Why did he even have to lie about being a double agent? I didn't quite follow it. It might have been nice to develop this a bit further, as it wouldn't take too much screentime. From there, you could even give him a bit of a redemption at the end. Perhaps when Mutt and Marion get into trouble, Indy saves them, but he nearly loses his life doing it, and Mac sacrifices himself to save Indy.

And all of this points out the true flaw of the film--it was underdeveloped in the depth department. For me, I don't really mind the

fridge scene, and I can stomach the CG, though I'd rather not

. But the film is definitely the least of the four because of all of this. It still ranks higher than many other films, and it's a lot of fun, but I can't rank it too high.

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all this things.. sound really plausible... this is a mess of a film.. hell!

and STILL

I enjoy it.. and I will watch it again... and I will buy the DVD/Blu-Ray... and put it next on my shelf to its three collegues...

Yeah . . . exactly.

You know, I pity these people who spend their lives criticizing one thing or another! They don't know how to live and enjoy!

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5) Skulls - Correct me if I’m wrong. Indy said in the diner that there were 13 skulls. He found one in Peru, and Spalko obtained another one at the warehouse, right? But there were already 12 in the chamber that needed 13. That's 14 skulls. Then Spalko says later that more skulls were found in Russia and other places. Then why did she need the one in the warehouse? What was the point of the warehouse sequence? What was the point of Indy saying that there were only 13 skulls? How did they know that the skull in the warehouse WASN’T the important 13th skull that needed to be returned? Indy films were a lot of things, but confusing was never one of them.

Well yes HE IS WRONG:

There were 13 skulls, from ancient times, (the rulers of the indians), the ones in the legend.

The aliens found in Russia were 'distant cousins' meaning that their skeletons are not crystal. They are alien from other planet or dimensions.

She wanted the warehouse one to check if it was crystal and the same as the legend said.

Irina wants as many skulls as she can get, she even thinks there were alot of them in the mayan ruins, that's why se wants to find the ruins.

i'm not going to read more on that article, because it seems it has not been written with care.

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BUt I have to admit.. that it is maybe my love for indy and seeing him in action again.. that saves the movie.. and makes me love that film...

and in other cases this exact same love for Indy makes them hate it..

But I cannot confirm that I would buy a DVD if it was they exact same film but with Nicholas Cage in the leaing part... you know what I mean.. I would certainly not be as forgiving I think.

But I guess it is the same about playing piano.. well I play it and I know a lot about playing piano and because of 15 years playing the piano I got sensetised.

I can hear thing others can't.. and I can't enjoy certain pieces by certain interprets, which other claim to be their favourite performances.

I know where to look for flaws and mistakes.. they don't, and that's why they get an overall good impression and have happy faces.. while I think - HOW can someone play beethoven like that? is this a joke?

and I guess it is the same with movies if you are more sesetised for movies and somehow know how they work... you will see errors others never will see. That's something special but also a curse.. depends on the point of view

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14) What was the point of the scorpion sting on Mutt's hand? Shouldn't that have led to something else? Or a setup to a joke of some kind later? By the way, David, scorpions STING, they don't BITE. I seriously doubt Indy would've made that little verbal mistake.

I would have expected Mutt to get back at him for this in the snake pit, with saying something like "the bigger the snake, the better."

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all this things.. sound really plausible... this is a mess of a film.. hell!

and STILL

I enjoy it.. and I will watch it again... and I will buy the DVD/Blu-Ray... and put it next on my shelf to its three collegues...

You,know ,there was a similar article for Return of the Jedi.

It's pretty easy to tear the thing apart nitpicking detail after detail. Since Raiders is one of your worshipped films,it was pretty easy to predict you'd hate this one Neil,just as you hate with a passion Superman Returns and the SW Prequels (Superman the Movie and Star Wars beeing your 2 other worshipped films). the thing is your already depicting KotCS as one of the worst films ever made,and while it has shortcomings,it has some redeeming values,

I mean a new Indy movie with a decent JW score is out

What else did we have to look forward to this summer ...Prince Crapsian,The Incredible Hulk?

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I still think, allthough now I am thinking very posotive about this film, that this was one of the greatest opprtunities they missed... I don't think Harrison will reprise his role as Indy

This film is light, entertaining and full of action sequnces that are fun to watch with great acting and Indy hasn't lost his charme

BUT it could have ben much more than this, they could have made a film more in the original spirit... dude they should have done something with atlantis.. now that is a strong mcguffin (I am starting to hate this word)

This wasn't the INdy film I hoped for and thats why I was soooo dissapointed coming out of the premiree

well even this film could be great and loved by all the fans.. if justed executed better - scriptwise... that's something I don't understand - I think they would have needed several months.. and we would have a good indy scipt with plotholes filled.. on tenseful red line and one character minus

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A story about Atlantis would pose very high difficulties for the writers to bring in the traditional Indy elements. It isn't technically an artefact (if you prefer this word ;) ). You've got to have something that brings special powers that could be used to somebody's advantage.

Indy going for Atlantis would be like Indy looking for Tanes instead of the Ark, or Indy searching for Pankot Palace instead of the Sankara stones, do you know what I mean?

Plus, can you imagine Indy going under water?

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A story about Atlantis would pose very high difficulties for the writers to bring in the traditional Indy elements. It isn't technically an artefact (if you prefer this word ;) ). You've got to have something that brings special powers that could be used to somebody's advantage.

Indy going for Atlantis would be like Indy looking for Tanes instead of the Ark, or Indy searching for Pankot Palace instead of the Sankara stones, do you know what I mean?

Plus, can you imagine Indy going under water?

well no problem with that... Orichalcum! a metal more powerful then anything else...

they could have loosely followed the plotline of the Lucasartsgame Indiana Jones and the fate of atlantis

and Atlantis isn't sunkn only.. it is somehow beneath the water... so no indy in a iving suite

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A story about Atlantis would pose very high difficulties for the writers to bring in the traditional Indy elements. It isn't technically an artefact (if you prefer this word ;) ). You've got to have something that brings special powers that could be used to somebody's advantage.

Indy going for Atlantis would be like Indy looking for Tanes instead of the Ark, or Indy searching for Pankot Palace instead of the Sankara stones, do you know what I mean?

Plus, can you imagine Indy going under water?

well no problem with that... Orichalcum! a metal more powerful then anything else...

they could have loosely followed the plotline of the Lucasartsgame Indiana Jones and the fate of atlantis

and Atlantis isn't sunkn only.. it is somehow beneath the water... so no indy in a iving suite

and then we will know the story before hand and we would complain...

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A story about Atlantis would pose very high difficulties for the writers to bring in the traditional Indy elements. It isn't technically an artefact (if you prefer this word ;) ). You've got to have something that brings special powers that could be used to somebody's advantage.

Indy going for Atlantis would be like Indy looking for Tanes instead of the Ark, or Indy searching for Pankot Palace instead of the Sankara stones, do you know what I mean?

Plus, can you imagine Indy going under water?

well no problem with that... Orichalcum! a metal more powerful then anything else...

they could have loosely followed the plotline of the Lucasartsgame Indiana Jones and the fate of atlantis

and Atlantis isn't sunkn only.. it is somehow beneath the water... so no indy in a iving suite

and then we will know the story before hand and we would complain...

man you can do so many things with atlantis... well maybe i am not very creative in inventing amzing adventure stories.. but fact is... allthough I appreciate their descision to go on with the character and the story in a very different direction I would have prferred an oldfashioned INdy Adventure

Or that rejcted Indy story developed for a game... After-Wr-Nais trying to find a artefact to resurrect their Nazi leaders...

But then.... I would have been satified, if this present Indy four would have been a much more oldfashioned presented film

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It's pretty easy to tear the thing apart nitpicking detail after detail. Since Raiders is one of your worshipped films,it was pretty easy to predict you'd hate this one Neil,just as you hate with a passion Superman Returns and the SW Prequels (Superman the Movie and Star Wars beeing your 2 other worshipped films). the thing is your already depicting KotCS as one of the worst films ever made,and while it has shortcomings,it has some redeeming values,

I mean a new Indy movie with a decent JW score is out

You know it is possible to be a discerning fan and not blindly accept everything that is tossed in front of you.

Neil

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Im not blindly accepting it .It had cringeworthy moments in it. I'm just saying it's not a total waste of time or the worst movie ever made and I don't "hate it" because there are vine swinging monkeys in or logical problems with the script.

I think TOD or Last Crusade could also be ripped apart by making a similar "top 50 reason it sucks list " if someone really wanted to write one.

K.M.

P.S.: I don't disagree with most of these 50 reasons but still enjoyed the film to some degree at the time I saw it. Now if I retrospect to much about it i'll hate it.

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I'm not "blindly accepting," and I'm definitely discriminating, and I loved the movie. Yes, it has tons of problems . . . so what? You want to explain to me how Indy survived that submarine ride to the island at the end of Raiders, or how he survived falling out of an airplane in a raft in Temple of Doom, or how Short Round knew fire would bring him back from the dark side? I could go on, but why would I?

This, to me, is a case of the good vastly outweighing the bad. Yes, some of it is silly; yes, the story/screenplay doesn't have the focus that it ought to have; these problems do not negate the rest of the movie, and the insults from some of you folks on the negative side are starting to become tiresome. Nobody's opinion is a consensus, and nobody's opinion is a good excuse to start calling people blind.

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I think TOD or Last Crusade could also be ripped apart by making a similar "top 50 reason it sucks list " if someone really wanted to write one.

K.M.

Yeah, I agree. In fact, I think you could do that even with Raiders, or any other film for that matter. This person obviously didn't like KotCS, but it would be just as easy if he didn't like any of the IJ Films.

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