A brilliant JW technique...

[Josh500 1,615]

I've never seen this discussed here, so I'll just start a thread about it. I've noticed this technique in MANY JW scores, and

I think it's quite brilliant and VERY effective. Also, it might be an invention of JW, at least I have NEVER heard it in any score by other composers, not even of the generation before (Steiner, Herrmann, etc.). It's typically heard when a character is moving at high speed, either flying or driving (or riding), or suspended in the air. As filmtracks.com puts it, it's... "typically introduced by the flurry of high range elements (led by flute) forming a flighty rhythmic bed, one that tends to be annoying in its extreme, upper-range enthusiasm."

Examples:

"Adventures on Earth" from E.T.: The first few minutes. On top of it, the "Victory Theme" is heard. This is probably the most famous example, and maybe even the first time JW used it. It's right at the beginning to indicate the speed of the bikes.

"Zam the Assassin/Chase Through Coruscant" from AotC: from 1:30 onwards, when Obi Wan jumps out through the window and goes flying out hanging on to the small ship.

"Journey to the Island" from JP: This one is very brief (from 4:19-4:28), but it's used to indicate the levity/speed of the jeeps as they drive to meet the Brachiosaurus.

"Belly of the Steel Beast" from the LC: 2:30 onwards, at 3:02, and at 3:12: when Indy is hanging suspended from the side of the tank about to be crushed.

These are the ones I can think off the top of my head, but I know there are many many more examples.

[MissPadmé 17]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

[Josh500 1,615]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

Really? I didn't know.

Wow, I've never heard this HH piece before, but the first minute or so is VERY reminiscent of Adventures on Earth.

But this technique was possibly developed and expanded by JW.

[MissPadmé 17]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

Really? I didn't know.

well I don't think he invented it. but man listen to the soundexample i posted

[Josh500 1,615]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

Really? I didn't know.

well I don't think he invented it. but man listen to the soundexample i posted

Well, yes, I can see where JW got the inspiration for the first minute or so of Adventures.

But listen to the examples I listed in my original message... it's amazing to see hear how JW uses this technique in many scenes.

[publicist 4,643]

Well, yes, I can see where JW got the inspiration for the first minute or so of Adventures.

But listen to the examples I listed in my original message... it's amazing to see hear how JW uses this technique in many scenes.

You also can add Franz Waxman and 'Spirit of St. Louis' to the list.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

Really? I didn't know.

well I don't think he invented it. but man listen to the soundexample i posted

While the "inspiration" is very direct, I always thought that Williams actually improved Hanson's idea. The choice of using an odd rhythm is much better and more exciting, imho.

[MSM 126]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

As you probably know, I am very interested in pieces that inspired Williams. I didn't know this piece, you made my day! Thanks!

[Josh500 1,615]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

Really? I didn't know.

well I don't think he invented it. but man listen to the soundexample i posted

While the "inspiration" is very direct, I always thought that Williams actually improved Hanson's idea. The choice of using an odd rhythm is much better and more exciting, imho.

Exactly. Not to mention the fact that the "Victory Theme" is much more catchy than what Hanson came up with...

As you probably know, I am very interested in pieces that inspired Williams. I didn't know this piece, you made my day! Thanks!

What's that piece again that's so reminiscent of Schindler's Workforce? I forgot.

Can somebody post the link again?

[MissPadmé 17]

What's that piece again that's so reminiscent of Schindler's Workforce? I forgot.

Can somebody post the link again?

I suppose it is the ouverture on hebrew themes by Prokovief

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caKkzFyN7X8

[Josh500 1,615]

What's that piece again that's so reminiscent of Schindler's Workforce? I forgot.

Can somebody post the link again?

I suppose it is the ouverture on hebrew themes by Prokovief

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caKkzFyN7X8

Yes, that's it. Thanks.

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Luckily we can still claim that Williams invented at least half of it. The world has been saved again.

Schindler's Workforce is very much based on Kilar's Exodus. Available on an excellent Naxos disc (at Naxos price, obviously). That piece was used in the Schindler trailer, too. I win.

[MissPadmé 17]

and you just love those?? I know probably wrong thread..

Dunesea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv9cjHqasc8...feature=related

Jawas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbfgMMjCu48...feature=related

[MSM 126]

Luckily we can still claim that Williams invented at least half of it. The world has been saved again.

Schindler's Workforce is very much based on Kilar's Exodus. Available on an excellent Naxos disc (at Naxos price, obviously). That piece was used in the Schindler trailer, too. I win.

Exactly.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ul_CKW4Sfo

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Dunesea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv9cjHqasc8...feature=related

Jawas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbfgMMjCu48...feature=related

No need to click on the links for identifying these.

[Josh500 1,615]

So what about this JW technique I described in my original message?

Any more examples?

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Exactly.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ul_CKW4Sfo

With video, neat!

[MissPadmé 17]

aha and waht about that?

Motorcycle - American - Nazis... hmm

starting at 0:13. not the best example. I remeber a better resemblence of even the 1941 march in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmzJdqdhxQ

[Josh500 1,615]

aha and waht about that?

Motorcycle - American - Nazis... hmm

starting at 0:13. not the best example. I remeber a better resemblence of even the 1941 march in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmzJdqdhxQ

Hmmm, I can hear the similarity, but somehow JW does everything better...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

As you probably know, I am very interested in pieces that inspired Williams. I didn't know this piece, you made my day! Thanks!

There are other moments in this work that Williams uses as a blueprint for "Adventure on Earth". I'd recommend listening through the whole symphony to see what I mean. Plus you'll get the (actual!) closing credit music from Alien, because this is the symphony they used.

[MSM 126]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

As you probably know, I am very interested in pieces that inspired Williams. I didn't know this piece, you made my day! Thanks!

There are other moments in this work that Williams uses as a blueprint for "Adventure on Earth". I'd recommend listening through the whole symphony to see what I mean. Plus you'll get the (actual!) closing credit music from Alien, because this is the symphony they used.

Yes I just read about it. Which recording do you recommend, the 4-CD box with Hanson conducting himself? I love crisp and bright sound quality.

aha and waht about that?

Motorcycle - American - Nazis... hmm

starting at 0:13. not the best example. I remeber a better resemblence of even the 1941 march in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmzJdqdhxQ

Hmmm, I can hear the similarity, but somehow JW does everything better...

I think there is more similarity with Walton's Scherzo from Symphony no.1 regarding to Scherzo for Motorcycle (couldn't find a youtube video though).

and you just love those?? I know probably wrong thread..

Dunesea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv9cjHqasc8...feature=related

Jawas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbfgMMjCu48...feature=related

Yes I love those

Btw, according to this guy there is a passage in Rite of Srping reminscent of General Grievous (and also of JP action writing IMO):

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=15P3aj5xCbE

Fragment starts at 4:09. Which part of Rite of Spring is this?

[Romão 2,274]

It's the third track of the Le Sacrifice. There are of course similarities, but it's much more inspiration that plagiarism.

[MSM 126]

So what about this JW technique I described in my original message?

Any more examples?

I recall having seen an Q&A with JW where he elaborates on the techniques he uses for creating the sound of levitation and flight. He said something like "slicing out the bottom part of the orchestra". Can't find the video right now :s

It's the third track of the Le Sacrifice. There are of course similarities, but it's much more inspiration that plagiarism.

Sure, it is.

[Romão 2,274]

Some the examples from that video are really far fetched. And there's an important distinction to be made between plagiarism and deliberate pastiche (such as in the case of Home Alome).

The two Nepture comparisions are really pushing it, though

[Datameister 2,037]

Yes, they are pushing it, although they're rather more similar than I'd realized.

It's unfortunate how widespread this idea about Williams being nothing but a plagiarist is. Particularly when the list of hardcore examples is relatively short.

[Incanus 5,713]

Yes, they are pushing it, although they're rather more similar than I'd realized.

It's unfortunate how widespread this idea about Williams being nothing but a plagiarist is. Particularly when the list of hardcore examples is relatively short.

Yes it is a strange thing that most people who accuse JW of plagiarism cite the same examples over and over which leaves out about 95% of his work. Not to be a JW apologist here but e.g. the SW/Holst similarities are a well known fact and are the result of Lucas' initial ideas for the music of the film before JW was signed to score the film and JW drew inspiration from that material.

But some of the examples are really pushing it either because of ignorance (e.g.Home Alone piece is a clear hommage) or for a fervent need to believe that JW is a hack.

Oh and on the actual topic , I am sure most have noticed Williams' style of generating the sense of flight and levity with his woodwind flurries and high end orchestrations. I do not know if that techinique is the private property of any composer but of course some might look it as detriment if it is not invented by JW himself. Originality seems to be everything in orchestral music circles.

[Datameister 2,037]

Yes it is a strange thing that most people who accuse JW of plagiarism cite the same examples over and over which leaves out about 95% of his work. Not to be a JW apologist here but e.g. the SW/Holst similarities are a well known fact and are the result of Lucas' initial ideas for the music of the film before JW was signed to score the film and JW drew inspiration from that material.

But some of the examples are really pushing it either because of ignorance (e.g.Home Alone piece is a clear hommage) or for a fervent need to believe that JW is a hack.

Exactly. This unfortunate disorder affects plenty of otherwise respectable and musically knowledgeable people, too, I'm sad to say.

[MSM 126]

So what about this JW technique I described in my original message?

Any more examples?

I recall having seen an Q&A with JW where he elaborates on the techniques he uses for creating the sound of levitation and flight. He said something like "slicing out the bottom part of the orchestra". Can't find the video right now :s

Does anyone know which video I mean?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Oh yes, the interview with the man with the funny face? I believe he discussed "Superman", did he not?

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I'm sure Star Wars was temp-tracked, and Lucas since he wanted Classical music in the 1st instance (like Kubrick's 2001) possibly urged Williams to stay close of than temp track.

I'm sure that with research you can make a complete 'classical' Star Wars soundtrack.

But Williams touch makes it shine, and the sequels, none of them have blatant temp-tracking because williams already knew what sound they wanted, and didnt need any temp track.

In that video as Merkel said, the two neptune similarities is really pushing it.

[MissPadmé 17]

But it is interesting, since I heard the Rozsa Spellbound Suite for orchestra the other day, there are 10 bars in it sounding exactly like the Imperial March transition to Han Solo tand the Princess from TESB End Credits

[MSM 126]

I'm sure Star Wars was temp-tracked, and Lucas since he wanted Classical music in the 1st instance (like Kubrick's 2001) possibly urged Williams to stay close of than temp track.

I'm sure that with research you can make a complete 'classical' Star Wars soundtrack.

But Williams touch makes it shine, and the sequels, none of them have blatant temp-tracking because williams already knew what sound they wanted, and didnt need any temp track.

In that video as Merkel said, the two neptune similarities is really pushing it.

Agree with everything.

I must say, it is still my ambition to finish such a 'classical' Star Wars soundtrack one day. I am interested in other peoples ideas for such an effort. Mayve we should make it a separate thread.

Oh yes, the interview with the man with the funny face? I believe he discussed "Superman", did he not?

Yes, I think so!

[Romão 2,274]

That might be interesting. In a way, the score to Star Wars could have posed a similar challenge to Williams to Alex North's in 2001.

It's quite clear where the Rite of Spring was used as a temp track, the same with The Planets. The throne room shouldn't be too hard to find out.

[MissPadmé 17]

That might be interesting. In a way, the score to Star Wars could have posed a similar challenge to Williams to Alex North's in 2001.

It's quite clear where the Rite of Spring was used as a temp track, the same with The Planets. The throne room shouldn't be too hard to find out.

throone room to me always sounded like. dvorak symphony no 9, 4 movement

It has the same structure. Brass blasting out a serious heroic theme with accentuations underneath

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlci-kCEaKE

[MSM 126]

That might be interesting. In a way, the score to Star Wars could have posed a similar challenge to Williams to Alex North's in 2001.

It's quite clear where the Rite of Spring was used as a temp track, the same with The Planets. The throne room shouldn't be too hard to find out.

throone room to me always sounded like. dvorak symphony no 9, 4 movement

Yes that's very clear.

[Datameister 2,037]

I honestly never even made the Dvorak/throne room connection before, and I've heard both pieces repeatedly. I hear it now, of course - the orchestration is pretty similar for the Force theme stuff. But the melody is so different that I never even thought about it.

And as always, Williams did a better job than the original!

[MSM 126]

I honestly never even made the Dvorak/throne room connection before, and I've heard both pieces repeatedly. I hear it now, of course - the orchestration is pretty similar for the Force theme stuff. But the melody is so different that I never even thought about it.

And as always, Williams did a better job than the original!

You are right of course, but still isn't it great to see where JW got his inspiration from?

[MissPadmé 17]

And as always, Williams did a better job than the original!

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Motorcycle - American - Nazis... hmm

starting at 0:13. not the best example. I remeber a better resemblence of even the 1941 march in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmzJdqdhxQ

Not so much in that cue, but there definitely are parts in the full score that usually remind me of Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra.

[Josh500 1,615]

So what about this JW technique I described in my original message?

Any more examples?

I recall having seen an Q&A with JW where he elaborates on the techniques he uses for creating the sound of levitation and flight. He said something like "slicing out the bottom part of the orchestra". Can't find the video right now :s

Does anyone know which video I mean?

Really?!! Can't say I recall JW ever saying that in an interview. I'd very much like to see that.

Was it in a featurette on a Bonus DVD??

[MSM 126]

So what about this JW technique I described in my original message?

Any more examples?

I recall having seen an Q&A with JW where he elaborates on the techniques he uses for creating the sound of levitation and flight. He said something like "slicing out the bottom part of the orchestra". Can't find the video right now :s

Does anyone know which video I mean?

Really?!! Can't say I recall JW ever saying that in an interview. I'd very much like to see that.

Was it in a featurette on a Bonus DVD??

Ah, I found it:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PlwqlHkF870

Check at 2:44.

Here's a transcription:

"[...] One of the things one can do in an orchestration is sort of leave out the bottom of the orchestra suddenly so the whole thing seems to be aloft. You know, to build up, build up, build up in a kind of introduction and then slide the bottom out so the whole work just seems to be floating [...]." - John Williams

Inspiring, isn't it?

[Josh500 1,615]

Ah, I found it:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PlwqlHkF870

Check at 2:44.

Here's a transcription:

"[...] One of the things one can do in an orchestration is sort of leave out the bottom of the orchestra suddenly so the whole thing seems to be aloft. You know, to build up, build up, build up in a kind of introduction and then slide the bottom out so the whole work just seems to be floating [...]." - John Williams

Inspiring, isn't it?

Yeah, very!!!

However, I don't think he's referring to the technique I was thinking of....

Wow, right after Superman, Adventures on Earth!! This is always good for an adrenaline push for me...

[Datameister 2,037]

That's a fascinating video - thanks for posting the link. I'm really enjoying it.

[MSM 126]

You're welcome

I think it's one of the more inspired JW interviews around.

I am actually also looking for the interview where Williams stated he thinks violins and celesta riffs can give the sensation of flight, when he talked about Hedwig's Theme. Someone?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Oh that one was invented by Howard Hanson

As you probably know, I am very interested in pieces that inspired Williams. I didn't know this piece, you made my day! Thanks!

There are other moments in this work that Williams uses as a blueprint for "Adventure on Earth". I'd recommend listening through the whole symphony to see what I mean. Plus you'll get the (actual!) closing credit music from Alien, because this is the symphony they used.

Yes I just read about it. Which recording do you recommend, the 4-CD box with Hanson conducting himself? I love crisp and bright sound quality.

I have the 4-disk Gerard Schwarz set (Hanson Complete Symphonies) which I really like. Unfortunately the box set is out of circulation now, but you can still buy the 4 disks seperately at a fairly cheap price.

[MissPadmé 17]

You're welcome

I think it's one of the more inspired JW interviews around.

I am actually also looking for the interview where Williams stated he thinks violins and celesta riffs can give the sensation of flight, when he talked about Hedwig's Theme. Someone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv-Z-nSipJY

[MSM 126]

You're welcome

I think it's one of the more inspired JW interviews around.

I am actually also looking for the interview where Williams stated he thinks violins and celesta riffs can give the sensation of flight, when he talked about Hedwig's Theme. Someone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv-Z-nSipJY

Thank you, but I think there was another interview, where he explicitly stated the strings and the celeste as the instruments who can represent flight.

[Josh500 1,615]

To come back to the oiginal subject, that technique was also used in the brilliant and breathtaking cue High-Wire Stunts from JP.

[MSM 126]

To come back to the oiginal subject, that technique was also used in the brilliant and breathtaking cue High-Wire Stunts from JP.

Thank you Josh, that's one of my fav JW cues also It just has everything that makes Williams so great.

[Datameister 2,037]

That it does. It's an amazing action cue. Love the chimes!