'Star Wars' (1977) vs. 'Star Trek' (2009)

[Wojo 2,453]

You're a troll, I'm a troll, everyone's a troll.

Or was that pepper...

[Jeshopk 8]

Don't worry, I wasn't ever gonna go that far, since I never would in any case. But I am am being personal when I say that I think he talks gobbledegook.

Just because I don't jump on the same bandwagons you do doesn't mean it is nonsense. Truth is subjective. It might surprise you to know how poorly the original three Star Wars movies would have fared on today's "Tomatometer" in the first months of their release. There is substantial groupthink due to internet opinions creating subcultures with tangible morays, stigmas and contests. It is a simple system of rewards, such as the rat getting cheese for completing the maze, only this time, it gets cheese for saying Star Trek 0 is clearly far better than any Lucas creation post 1982.

That I sometimes go against the grain is no indicator of my credibility. I just don't get much out of being rewarded by total strangers in a constructed reality.

Tomatometer Ranking of Star Wars Series Based on Critical Reaction During Original Release Dates:

83% - Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

79% - Star Wars

65% - Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones

62% - Star wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

52% - The Empire Strikes Back

31% - Return of the Jedi

Groupthink eventually wears out and the substance rises to the top.

[Quintus 5,399]

This link is a lot of fun, in the face of your RT stats.

[Wojo 2,453]

Oh ok, now he brings statistics to the table. Forgive us for doubting your integrity.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

So why exactly do you keep hanging around places populated by trolls and people who don't have your enlightened way of thinking?

Other than to troll, I mean.

[Jeshopk 8]

This link is a lot of fun, in the face of your RT stats.

Perhaps you failed to see my point - which is that ratings are not an indicator of quality.

So why exactly do you keep hanging around places populated by trolls and people who don't have your enlightened way of thinking?

Other than to troll, I mean.

Because I have been listening to Williams for 33 years, and I find it intellectually stimulating, even if sometimes I feel I should observe the Prime Directive and leave the natives be.

[Wojo 2,453]

Quint, there must be a typo in the Rotten Tomatoes numbers you introduced for Star Trek 11. First off, I don't see any green squishies. Second of all, its 95% is higher than the 83% given to Revenge of the Sith, which must arguably be the greatest Star Wars film of all time. Since, as everyone can plainly see, the critical fan favorite The Empire Strikes Back only merits a 52%.

I'm going to burn my Empire Strikes Back video when I get home. I cannot stand for a 52% movie cluttering up my bookshelf.

[Quintus 5,399]

This link is a lot of fun, in the face of your RT stats.

Perhaps you failed to see my point - which is that ratings are not an indicator of quality.

Ha ha ha, you said it almost in the same breath as you took when you provided your silly RT links...

GUFFAW!!!

It's nice to see Wojo on the same piss-take plain as myself, again.

[Wojo 2,453]

Nobody used RT or ratings to juxtapose the success of Star Trek 11 against the success of Star Wars 1-6 before you did, Jeshopk.

If the intellectual stimulation of John Williams has turned you into a complete dullard, I'm also destroying my Williams collection when I get home. I've only got six years before I hit 33, but I can't be too careful.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Quint + Wojo + Charlie > Jeshopk

Majority rules!

[Wojo 2,453]

Aw crap, I said dullard.

7, Datameister

[John Crichton 4]

"Yousa thinkin' people gonna die?"

"I wish I could just wish away my feelings."

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's holding me back! Some day I will be the most powerful Jedi ever."

"Dellow felegates..."

"This party's over."

"No, no, no, you have lost!"

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

"What have I done? ... I will do whatever you ask."

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is EVIL!"

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

And of course...

Man, I wish Lucas had gotten a screenwriter that actually knows how to write dialogue. Would've made a hell of a difference.

[Quintus 5,399]

Never said they were.

I want JJ Abrams' babies.

Lucas' artistic success ended in 1977.

No love for ESB?

Kershner.

Lucas still had a big part of it. There's not loving the man, and there's not recognizing his contributions.

Sorry Charles, I initially missed your response.

I'll never take away the amazing contribution to modern cinema Lucas has thankfully given, but nowadays I'm of the belief that the man's productive ability far outweighs that of his creative and artistic nounce.

Seriously, I don't even consider the Lucas of today to be a part of the film industry.

[Jeshopk 8]

This link is a lot of fun, in the face of your RT stats.

Perhaps you failed to see my point - which is that ratings are not an indicator of quality.

Ha ha ha, you said it almost in the same breath as you took when you provided your silly RT links...

GUFFAW!!!

It's nice to see Wojo on the same piss-take plain as myself, again.

I will be patient in explaining the point of posting the original critical responses of the Star Wars films. The point was not to say that the critical responses proved the prequels were better than the OT. The point was to say that critical reaction has no bearing on the quality of a film.

In pure sociological terms, with opinions and reviews instantly posted for all to see and access - groupthink is inevitable. This is why something that is ridiculed and put down publicly can still be so successful. Because spoken reaction reflects cultural dynamics while viewing habits reflect personal preferences. Of course there are those whose viewing habits are swayed by this groupthink, and they don't indulge in or defend that which they enjoy for fear that they themselves would become targets of said ridicule - And I pity them. How many people stayed far away from Trek because it was "uncool" until this outing. The 95% rating is hilarious on its very face. Or are you unaware of the overwhelming evidence that Star Trek fans ever suffered any stigma?

[Henry B 50]

Don't worry, I wasn't ever gonna go that far, since I never would in any case. But I am am being personal when I say that I think he talks gobbledegook.

Just because I don't jump on the same bandwagons you do doesn't mean it is nonsense. Truth is subjective. It might surprise you to know how poorly the original three Star Wars movies would have fared on today's "Tomatometer" in the first months of their release. There is substantial groupthink due to internet opinions creating subcultures with tangible morays, stigmas and contests. It is a simple system of rewards, such as the rat getting cheese for completing the maze, only this time, it gets cheese for saying Star Trek 0 is clearly far better than any Lucas creation post 1982.

That I sometimes go against the grain is no indicator of my credibility. I just don't get much out of being rewarded by total strangers in a constructed reality.

No, but what is an indicator of your credibility is that you dismiss every conflicting viewpoint as the product of some grotesque, Orwellian cultural machination while upholding your own viewpoints as if they are the last bastion of a once free thinking civilization. You do realize that we're talking about movies in which robots and space aliens shoot lasers at each other, don't you?

Man, I wish Lucas had gotten a screenwriter that actually knows how to write dialogue. Would've made a hell of a difference.

Yes... but the films would still have cinematography that recalls computerized animation demonstrations, incomprehensible plot holes and lifeless editing.

[Wojo 2,453]

Jeshopk, hold still while I zap you with my amazing George Lucas inspired magical groupthink:

[Ollie 1,059]

It's starting to really get deep in here, I need to go find a pair of boots

[Jeshopk 8]

No, but what is an indicator of your credibility is that you dismiss every conflicting viewpoint as the product of some grotesque, Orwellian cultural machination while upholding your own viewpoints as if they are the last bastion of a once free thinking civilization. You do realize that we're talking about movies in which robots and space aliens shoot lasers at each other, don't you?

Orwellian would be fascism, or controlled groupthink, so that's not what I think this is [though you have to question why they counted some of those more critical reviews as fresh]. I think this is more of a natural cultural dynamic arising from the internet rating system and social networking sites. I can't get too far into politics, but I have observed that human society has problems with free thought, and most people do temper their opinions to meet the expectations of others. Of course this was always the case to varying degrees, but since the internet has become a common tool for socializing, there is more external feedback by which one such person might conform their opinions to. The entertainment industry has become less creative and challenging. Just watching a single episode of Star Trek last night was far more fulfilling than watching the new film. The prequels (and the OT) actually have more in common with the original Trek series than the new Trek film does. They all have charmingly flawed, yet highly evocative special effects, charmingly unrealistic yet iconic portrayals, and at their core (some would say the very reason they are all still around) some very thought provoking themes and undercurrents that question our very humanity.

[Wojo 2,453]

So you're saying that it is group thinking patterns that compel everyone reading this and everyone this past weekend who saw and liked Star Trek 11 to actually like Star Trek 11? That a lack of any Star Trek material at all for six years means that the next Star Trek material, no matter how bad and poorly constructed, will automatically be liked, embraced, and considered to be perfect and infallible?

If you had provided any concrete evidence on why we should believe that, it would make for a brilliant and compelling argument. Since you have not, and rely on the "Star Wars is better because I say so" defense, it's just fallen flat on its face. How do we know the group thinking patterns haven't brainwashed you into thinking Star Wars is on some pedestal high above other movies?

Star Trek 11 is not trying to be more fulfilling than TOS. It knows it can't be to the die-hard Star Trek fanboys, which is strange because you seem to be a die-hard anti-fanboy of Star Trek.

What do you mean by "the very reason they [star Wars/Star Wars prequels] are still around?" That doesn't make any sense. Every film ever made is "still around." You can buy it, rent it, download it, watch it, love it, cherish it, talk about it. Films aren't made and then discarded. Star Wars is still around in this forum because everybody here has a thing for John Williams music, and he wrote Star Wars, so what do you know, a convenient pairing. But liking John Williams doesn't mean I have to throw Star Trek under the bus for the sake of Star Wars.

At any rate, this argument has gotten away from 'Star Wars' (1977) vs. 'Star Trek' (2009), and become Star Wars Franchise vs. 'Star Trek' (2009). Which means in a John Williams forum, our group thinking forbids us from liking Star Trek more than Star Wars for fear of suggesting we don't like the good scores that John Williams wrote 30 years ago anymore. I'm as guilty as the next troll for propagating the argument with this Lucas fanboy, and for that, I am sorry, JWFan community.

[Jay 37,355]

Apology accepted, Darth Wojo

[Quintus 5,399]

It was the usual fun though. No regrets!

[Jeshopk 8]

So you're saying that it is group thinking patterns that compel everyone reading this and everyone this past weekend who saw and liked Star Trek 11 to actually like Star Trek 11? That a lack of any Star Trek material at all for six years means that the next Star Trek material, no matter how bad and poorly constructed, will automatically be liked, embraced, and considered to be perfect and infallible?

If you had provided any concrete evidence on why we should believe that, it would make for a brilliant and compelling argument. Since you have not, and rely on the "Star Wars is better because I say so" defense, it's just fallen flat on its face. How do we know the group thinking patterns haven't brainwashed you into thinking Star Wars is on some pedestal high above other movies?

Star Trek 11 is not trying to be more fulfilling than TOS. It knows it can't be to the die-hard Star Trek fanboys, which is strange because you seem to be a die-hard anti-fanboy of Star Trek.

What do you mean by "the very reason they [star Wars/Star Wars prequels] are still around?" That doesn't make any sense. Every film ever made is "still around." You can buy it, rent it, download it, watch it, love it, cherish it, talk about it. Films aren't made and then discarded. Star Wars is still around in this forum because everybody here has a thing for John Williams music, and he wrote Star Wars, so what do you know, a convenient pairing. But liking John Williams doesn't mean I have to throw Star Trek under the bus for the sake of Star Wars.

At any rate, this argument has gotten away from 'Star Wars' (1977) vs. 'Star Trek' (2009), and become Star Wars Franchise vs. 'Star Trek' (2009). I'm as guilty as the next troll for propagating the argument with this Lucas fanboy, and for that, I am sorry, JWFan community.

First off, I don't believe in "fanboys". The word has no meaning. Am I a Pee-Wee Herrmann fanboy because I love Pee Wee's Big Adventure enough to watch it at least once every few months? I love Pepsi too. Does that make me a Pepsi fanboy?

I've watched the original series since I was very young. I have always watched it when it was on TV. I had little interest in the follow up series, except some of TNG and the beginning of Deep Space 9. Not a fan of the last producer guy either - whatever his name was. Bearman?

I do dislike JJ Abrams' work, and I feel he is wrong for Star Trek. Seeing the movie just made me squint and try to accept these as the same characters they were trying to say they were. That didn't work - so I waited for something interesting to happen. I was entertained, but it was a **1/2 script, and I also had a splitting headache from the hyperactivity, repetetive theme music and shaky cam. I would rather watch Kirk smartly scorn god in Star Trek V than watch a bunch of pretty boys pretend to be in Star Trek and fight a stock villain.

The choice between turning Star Trek into a High Octane Thrill Ride and letting it die is a false choice. I actually own Nemesis on DVD and pop it in now and then. The series had more of a marketing problem then it did a problem with its direction. I agree, Paramount needed a change if they were determined to keep it going. Given what's happened, I would have rather let it die for a while, and make a comeback when people are a little less impressed by JJ Abrams substancelessness.

Regarding group thought, and "concrete evidence" thereof, if you read over some studies or articles on the subject, you might see reflections in the real world that will be illuminating for you. A full scientific study on the subject of group think in film criticism and public opinion in relation to the film Star Trek (2009) is impractical, but if it is something you're interested in, there is plenty you can research on your own on the subject of groupthink in general. If you don't have time to read, just watch 12 Angry Men and you might get a little insight. Without some intellectual curiosity on the subject, I am afraid it is a subject you won't learn much about.

Regarding what I meant by "still around", in a general sense, films can fall out of public consciousness. None of the Star Wars films or the original Star Trek crew episodes have ever fallen from public consciousness. Not much time has passed since the Prequels, but I feel they too have staying power. Who do you think will still be on the public conscious in 20 years - Nero or Darth Maul?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The alternate timeline card does not explain the many glaring inconsistencies that exist. The Prequels are far more logically consistent with the OT.

Please.

'When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed by how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.'

So how does that match up with 'When I first knew him, your father raced in some competition, I thought he was a fucking liability, and I only ended up training him because my misguided master made me do it as his dying wish.'

The other quotes you mentioned are correct in their continuity issue but this one if well explained in TPM. Lucas made a strech because in 1977 he had not TPM in mind as it is (anakin would be older when obi wan found him, etc...). But still there is no error there. I just hoped all those other you mentioned had had at least a steched explaation too..

'When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.

No lies there. Who said anything about a spaceship pilot?

BTW sport motorbike riders start pretty young 12 year or so....

I was amazed by how strongly the Force was with him

That's why the 'It's off the charts, not even Master Yoda has a midiclhroian count like this' line is in the movie. Hell, maybe lucas created the midiclorians for them to create a way of showing anakin's Force strength so obi wan could be amazed

I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi

He trained him didnt he? And he stubbornly wanted to even if Yoda did not want him to. Kenobi took it as a personal asigment to fullfill his master dying wish.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Star Wars by far the better motion picture, not even close. 4 of you are idiots

01 - Personal attacks or offensive language will not be allowed. Please be RESPECTFUL of one another, allow for differences in opinions, and please don't make anyone feel that they cannot post their views in this forum.

5.

- Datameister, who was referring to the running count, not the number of idiots in this thread.

sorry I cannot be respectful of the now 5 idiots who voted for Star Trek. Perhaps I should have said fools.

To placate a person such as yourself, perhaps I could have lied and said they we're persons of unusual tastes.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

'When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.

No lies there. Who said anything about a spaceship pilot?

BTW sport motorbike riders start pretty young 12 year or so....

It's Star Wars, of course he meant spaceship pilot, to make him a reflection of Luke and his abilities. Even so, Anakin isn't a great pod pilot. Before the Boonta Eve, he never even finished a race.

I was amazed by how strongly the Force was with him

That's why the 'It's off the charts, not even Master Yoda has a midiclhroian count like this' line is in the movie. Hell, maybe lucas created the midiclorians for them to create a way of showing anakin's Force strength so obi wan could be amazed :cool:

That's kind of reaching, and a very cold way of putting what sounded very organic back in 83.

I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi

He trained him didnt he? And he stubbornly wanted to even if Yoda did not want him to. Kenobi took it as a personal asigment to fullfill his master dying wish.

The phrase "I took it upon myself" indicates a free act, not being bound into contract by another. He did not take it upon himself, Qui-Gon did that, he just wasn't around to fulfill it so put it on Obi-Wan.

This is even without mentioning the whole 'who trained Obi-Wan' deal. I don't see Yoda doing it as a youngling as a valid excuse, unless Obi-Wan was a particularly reckless four year old.

Also, LOL@Jeshopk.

[Datameister 2,042]

sorry I cannot be respectful of the now 5 idiots who voted for Star Trek. Perhaps I should have said fools.

To placate a person such as yourself, perhaps I could have lied and said they we're persons of unusual tastes.

01 - Personal attacks or offensive language will not be allowed. Please be RESPECTFUL of one another, allow for differences in opinions, and please don't make anyone feel that they cannot post their views in this forum.

6.

[Jay 37,355]

7!

[Wojo 2,453]

7!

No, 7! = 7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 5040

[Datameister 2,042]

7!

That one didn't count!

[Ollie 1,059]

8*6*7*5*3*0*9

[Jay 37,355]

19,999 posts Mark. Make your next one something special

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Yeah, a Trek quote!

[Quintus 5,399]

Maybe he should use it to come out of the closet. The Hans Zimmer closet.

[Ollie 1,059]

19,999 posts Mark. Make your next one something special

Ehh this will do.

[Wojo 2,453]

I'll tell you one thing, George Lucas is not amused with the attention that Star Trek 2009 is getting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpZnq_3P_dc

[JoeinAR 1,949]

sorry I cannot be respectful of the now 5 idiots who voted for Star Trek. Perhaps I should have said fools.

To placate a person such as yourself, perhaps I could have lied and said they we're persons of unusual tastes.

01 - Personal attacks or offensive language will not be allowed. Please be RESPECTFUL of one another, allow for differences in opinions, and please don't make anyone feel that they cannot post their views in this forum.

6.

I know gay bottoms less anal than you

funny the 6 don't have the gonads to admit it. I wish this place had polls that showed who voted for what.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Joey, just because you're not intelligent enough to understand Star Trek doesn't make Star Wars superior.

[John Crichton 4]

I know gay bottoms less anal than you

And to help Datameister, since the start of the board that's approximately #578,912.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Aww the Joey monster isn't taking the bait.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joey, just because you're not intelligent enough to understand Star Trek doesn't make Star Wars superior.

shut up blume, I thought you were Alex for a second,

my lack of intelligence doesn't make Star Trek superior to Star Wars either.

How was that bit of logic?

I prefer Star Trek as an overall story arc than I do Star Wars, there is basically 4 hours of Star Wars that I care about, and there are hundreds of hours of Star Trek I care about.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

funny the 6 don't have the gonads to admit it. I wish this place had polls that showed who voted for what.

I admitted it, and even said why.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

yes but it was a stupid reason, and Drax properly chastised you.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

But still, I've got the gonads!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

ok, I'll give you that

[Datameister 2,042]

7 and 8...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Look Mommy he can count!

[Datameister 2,042]

Look Mommy he can count!

Your responses are steadily becoming more and more sophisticated!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Look Mommy he can count!

Bite me bitch!

...Just adding to the theme of this rule #1 thread.

shut up blume, I thought you were Alex for a second, wink.gif

That is more insulting than any curse word!

[Trent B 337]

Now now children, we can all play with each others lightsabers and phasers nicely now.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I prefer quantum torpedos