Composers' sketches

[Datameister 2,037]

Hello all! So I'm currently a little bit obsessed with film score sketches, and composers' sketches in general. It's one of those topics that I can find close to no information on, except through directly studying what relatively few materials I've been able to procure through the trading board. Obviously, each composer is going to have his or her own idiosyncrasies and methods, but I'm basically just looking for more information about the...format of a musical sketch, I guess. A broad question, I know. But it can't hurt to try.

Williams seems to do his sketches on unlabeled 8-staff manuscript paper. Instruments are grouped together roughly in concert score order - a run on the top staff might say wind and encompass most or all of the woodwinds, for example, and the strings usually occupy two adjacent staves near the bottom of the system, with the individual violin/viola/cello/bass parts only labeled as such in particularly ambiguous or important passages. If, for example, the clarinets join another group of instruments, that might be indicated with +cls. Tempo markings, dynamics, timings/sync points, and so forth all appear as they would in a full score. Instruments sometimes shift from staff to staff if necessary, indicated with lines or arrows.

Am I pretty spot-on so far? How does this compare to other composers' approaches, both in the film scoring world and in the larger world of orchestral music?

Also, more specifically, what would basso mean in a Williams sketch? Based on context, I'm thinking it may mean bassoon, but it seems like bsn would be a more sensible abbreviation, since basso looks a lot like bass or bassa (as in 8va bassa).

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I might guess that the "basso" in a Williams score may mean the part indicated is copied and played by all bass instruments (bassoon, tuba, double bass etc.)? Just a suggestion!

[OrchDork 0]

You've pretty much nailed everything as far as Williams' sketches go. I'll add that he sometimes uses 10-staff sketch paper for more dense cues. Conrad Pope (and formerly John Neufeld, Courage, etc.) uses varying orchestral manuscript paper (mostly depending on the size of the ensemble for the cue and if there is choir).

I believe that magical_me is correct: basso signifies tutti 'bass' instruments.

In the realm of Hollywood, Williams is the only composer who currently works this way - with his sketches going to his orchestrator(s) and then off to the music preparation office to compile the parts for the sessions. Other composers who are similar are Christopher Young (who used to sketch at the piano - he now hums into a tape recorder - and his assistants orchestrate his cues based off of his directions, and then mock them up) and Joel McNeely (who sketches cues in a very similar way to Williams, then has an assistant mock them up). I know of other composers notating themes, harmonies and more dense passages on paper and then playing them into the computer, but most don't even do that. Almost every composer plays their music directly into the computer, eliminating any sort of pencil and paper process all together.

As for concert composers, I can only make comments based on my somewhat limited experience in that area - and that is, they will either work with pencil and paper (hiring someone to input the music into either Finale or Sibelius once the work has been completed), or they will work directly into their notation program of choice. It is my understanding that, when writing for the concert hall, Williams writes on orchestral paper, which is then sent off to be put into Finale.

My personal preference, when writing for either film or concert hall, is to sketch whenever possible and later go into the computer. I'm a bit "old school," despite my young age - I prefer to free time cues as well, when working for film.

[Datameister 2,037]

Thanks for the input! That's a pity the "basso" probably just indicates general bass instruments...every time I see something not totally specific in a Williams sketch, a part of me dies just a little bit. Even though I know he really is responsible for the vast majority of what we hear, there's a part of me that wants every single instrumental choice to be his, and that's simply not the case.

[Henry B 50]

Thanks for the input! That's a pity the "basso" probably just indicates general bass instruments...every time I see something not totally specific in a Williams sketch, a part of me dies just a little bit. Even though I know he really is responsible for the vast majority of what we hear, there's a part of me that wants every single instrumental choice to be his, and that's simply not the case.

Actually, that is the case (in this... case). "Basso" means bassoons, tuba(s) and double basses. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Thanks for the input! That's a pity the "basso" probably just indicates general bass instruments...every time I see something not totally specific in a Williams sketch, a part of me dies just a little bit. Even though I know he really is responsible for the vast majority of what we hear, there's a part of me that wants every single instrumental choice to be his, and that's simply not the case.

Well, actually this could also mean all the bass instruments are playing the same lines. Williams uses this kind of short-hands every time (for example "tutti woodwinds"), but this doesn't mean he's generic or that he leaves stuff out to be "filled" by someone else. This way of sketching music is quite clever and economical--Prokofiev used to do exactly the same. Everything is written down, but the composer has his own short-hand writing that saves him a lot of time.

[Datameister 2,037]

So when Williams indicates "winds" or "basso", he truly and invariably means every single one of the instruments the term refers to? If that's the case, then his sketches truly do leave little to the imagination of the orchestrators.

[Henry B 50]

Well, if you were orchestrating, would you write "basso" and leave it to an orchestrator to choose between bassoon, tuba and double bass? Vastly different timbres, and each belongs to a different "choir."

[Datameister 2,037]

Makes sense.

[OrchDork 0]

Well, if you were orchestrating, would you write "basso" and leave it to an orchestrator to choose between bassoon, tuba and double bass? Vastly different timbres, and each belongs to a different "choir."

While the low instruments do have vastly different timbres, an orchestrator can guess which ones are appropriate, depending on the style and scope of the passage or cue. Williams will make changes on the stage as well - so it really is all his work. Remember, too, that Williams and Pope have been working together for close to 20 years at this point, so I'm sure a short-hand has developed. Plus, there's an invention called the telephone which I'm sure would alleviate any questions Pope may have...

[Datameister 2,037]

Also true. But if I were a film composer, I don't think I'd want to leave that sort of choice up to an orchestrator, even an extremely good one. I'd want to make it clear through the sketch and/or other forms of communication.

Also, something that annoys me greatly about the fully orchestrated manuscripts - there's a tendency to have slurs end on a note that's tied to one or more other notes, which I've been told is a no-no. You end the slur at the end of the tied notes. Makes sense, right?

[Henry B 50]

I've seen it done both ways. Maybe what you were told was just one musician's opinion, not an accepted convention. I tend to agree that slurs should cover the entirety of tied notes, but sometimes it looks really messy. As long as the performer wouldn't confuse the slur with a tie, it's fine, I think.

[Datameister 2,037]

I think this was the resource I was thinking of. At the bottom of page 11, it claims that the slur should always include the tied note(s). IIRC, I've also seen that rule in at least one book about engraving techniques and guidelines. Granted, it could be that it's still just an opinion thing, but I think it makes more sense. I get annoyed every time I see one of those in the manuscripts...if I'm engraving one in Finale, I make the slur include the tied notes.

[Wojo 2,453]

I've usually seen that the slur covers to the end of the tied notes, but I wouldn't put it past me to have seen it the other way as well.

Because I've seen music written with four quarter notes of the same pitch with a tie over the group, instead of a whole note. It's where the composer wanted some separation, but less than four notes played legato.

So if the slur stops at the first note of the tie, there could be some tonguing on the subsequent notes of the tie.

[Datameister 2,037]

Mmm, good point. If it were me, though, I'd want to be very clear about what exactly I was going for. And a least in the case of these manuscripts, it happens every single time, which leads me to believe it's just the copyist or orchestrator's annoying convention.

[OrchDork 0]

The issue of slurs stopping at the first note of a tie also bothers me, though I have a suspicion that it's more of just a way of avoiding collisions with staves/notes above or below the staff with a slur. In many cases, handwritten orchestrations will have the slur only go to the first tied note, but when parts are copied, the slur will include all tied notes. The performing musicians' parts being perfect is the top priority. When using Finale or Sibelius, the "complete slur" practice is the convention when creating full scores (and, of course, parts) in Hollywood.

[Datameister 2,037]

That's good to know. Thanks again for the input!

[OrchDork 0]

You're welcome - I'm happy to provide some input.

[Datameister 2,037]

Sorry to bump a somewhat older thread of mine, but I wanted to get input on the issue of the word basso again. How certain are you guys that this signifies all the lowest instruments playing? Because as I've been studying/copying ESB, I'm starting to think that it's really just an 8vb (8va bassa) marking in disguise. I know Williams sometimes uses 8 basso for that purpose in his sketches, so perhaps basso is just a convenient abbreviation of that? And then + basso would just indicate to add a lower octave doubling?

[airmanjerm 78]

Hi Datameister, I tried sending you a PM but I think your box is full.

[Datameister 2,037]

Whoops! Shouldn't be a problem now.

[BTR1701 59]

Thanks for the input! That's a pity the "basso" probably just indicates general bass instruments...every time I see something not totally specific in a Williams sketch, a part of me dies just a little bit. Even though I know he really is responsible for the vast majority of what we hear, there's a part of me that wants every single instrumental choice to be his, and that's simply not the case.

I'm not sure what you mean here. By indicating "basso", Williams is indeed making the instrumentation choices for the score. He's just using a shorthand way of expressing it. How would the choice of instrumentation be any different if he wrote out "trombone, tuba, bassoon, cello, contrabass", instead of using "basso" as a quick reference to all of them?

Also, something that annoys me greatly about the fully orchestrated manuscripts - there's a tendency to have slurs end on a note that's tied to one or more other notes, which I've been told is a no-no. You end the slur at the end of the tied notes. Makes sense, right?

Yes, that's technically correct. However the folks who are churning out these manuscript scores for film music don't really care about the technical niceties of music engraving. They often only have days or mere hours to do the work and such nitpicking details are not top on their list of concerns. As long as the musicians understand what to play (and in the example you gave, I'd have no trouble understanding what to do if the music showed up on my stand written that way), then that's all that matters.

So if the slur stops at the first note of the tie, there could be some tonguing on the subsequent notes of the tie.

Not all instruments require the use of the mouth (or the tongue)...

[Datameister 2,037]

I'm not sure what you mean here. By indicating "basso", Williams is indeed making the instrumentation choices for the score. He's just using a shorthand way of expressing it. How would the choice of instrumentation be any different if he wrote out "trombone, tuba, bassoon, cello, contrabass", instead of using "basso" as a quick reference to all of them?

When I wrote that, I didn't realize the idea was that it indicated ALL those instruments.

But as I've said, now I'm questioning that - might it just be an 8va bassa abbreviation?

Yes, that's technically correct. However the folks who are churning out these manuscript scores for film music don't really care about the technical niceties of music engraving. They often only have days or mere hours to do the work and such nitpicking details are not top on their list of concerns. As long as the musicians understand what to play (and in the example you gave, I'd have no trouble understanding what to do if the music showed up on my stand written that way), then that's all that matters.

Fair enough. It still blows me away that they can accomplish as much as they do in such a short period of time.

[lostinspace 8]

I tend to concur with what was said above. However having seen sketches for Superman, and Always movies basso or BASS 8VB usually indicates Bass clarinet, Contra bsn, tuba, (possibly 4th trombone if the orchestras big enough), and double bass. But it is up to the orchestrator to chose which instruments are (a) available (wind instruments need periodic rests) (b) fit into context of "balance" ie if brass are all playing loudly then the bass line will need contrabass, tuba (possibly) and probably contra bsn and bass clarinet. In the context of the score it will be obvious (usually) which instruments can't play as they may need a rest. Low piano and synths are also used to double parts if the music is "busy". Like in Jurassic park there are often doublings of low piano, cellos and basses, bassoons. Tuba can be very powerful so most "good orchestrators" only use it when necessary.

I think when these indications are not stated explicitly on the sketch the composer does not care if say bassoons and bass clarinet double brass as they have taken care of the melodic and harmonic structure of the music. Wind double brass nicely and add some low end power to support the music: "they don't change the composers intention that much!!!"

[Swordfish392 3]

I have also a question about those indications, has nothing to do with sketches but with scores... (I dunno where else to post)

For what does "a4" or "a2" (for example on top of the horns or basson) stand for??

[Joe Brausam 214]

The whole section plays, I would assume.

[airmanjerm 78]

I have also a question about those indications, has nothing to do with sketches but with scores... (I dunno where else to post)

For what does "a4" or "a2" (for example on top of the horns or basson) stand for??

"a2" is typically used when two instruments share a staff in the score...for example, 1st and 2nd horns are usually written on the same staff. (Or 1st and 3rd horn in some scores.) Most of the time they'll have different things to play, but if you want them to both play the same line, you write "a2" so they know it's not just a line for just one of them to play.

Additionally, within one part (such as "1st Clarinet," etc.) sometimes the composer will write two parts. That's only good when you know you'll have more than one player covering that part, and when they do that it's usually because they only want a few people playing whatever they write in that manner. When that is written, the composer will indicate "divisi," over the music, or just "div." for short. Some of the 1st clarinet players will play one part of the divisi section, and the other 1st clarinet players will play the other part. When the divisi section is over, and all 1st Clarinettists (or whatever) are supposed to go back to playing the same unison line, the composer will write "a2" over the music sometimes. (Writing the word "unison," or just "unis" is technically more accurate, but when you're in a hurry, the smallest term will siffice! ha)

"a3" would be if you have 3 people sharing a staff, "a4" for 4 people, etc. You usually don't get more than 2 people sharing a staff in an actual part though (the music the instrumentalists are playing from), but I've seen up to 4 or 5 sharing a staff in published scores. Staff-sharing is much different in orchestral and band scores, but is useful to help cut down on the number of staves the conductor has to read.

Hope that helps!

[Datameister 2,037]

^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

And lostinspace, I'm actually pretty sure now that the basso marking does NOT refer to any instruments at all in Williams' sketches. It's just an indication to drop (or double) the passage an octave lower, nothing more. Look over the sketches again, and I think you'll see that all the instruments are already accounted for in passages where he uses the marking, and the fact that he sometimes writes it as 8 basso seals the deal.

[Swordfish392 3]

Thanks, that helped!

[Swordfish392 3]

Another question:

Everything written for an F-Horn should usualy be played a fith deeper than notated. But in fact they are often played like written (so non transcribed)

I wondered, is there an indication for that or something that I missed?

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, Williams generally writes all his sketches in concert pitch - it's quicker and easier that way. When the orchestrators do their job, they transpose all the instruments that need it. So the horns, trumpets, clarinets, and English horn will all have different notes in the sketches than in the orchestrators' manuscripts. (And the double bass, contrabassoon, and piccolo parts are generally off by an octave, of course, unless the sketch indicates otherwise.)

EDIT: Occasionally an orchestrator's manuscript will have some or all of the parts in concert pitch, though. But that's usually indicated on there. If I remember correctly, at least some JNH scores are done that way. And one of the Williams manuscripts I have has the horns in concert pitch for part of it...can't remember which one, but it has a note at the beginning.

[Swordfish392 3]

Hey, that's interesting. But I was actualy more refering to conductors scores than to sketches.

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, almost every Williams score I've seen has them transposed...could you give some examples?

[Swordfish392 3]

Clean up your mails (looks like it's full) and I'll send you some examples of what I mean.

[Datameister 2,037]

Done!

[Swordfish392 3]

Does anyone know what "l.v" or "1.v" means? (percussion)

Another question, what's that symbol which often disapears under the first bar of the harp? Does it indicate the tuning? (if yes could anyone explain how it works?)

[Datameister 2,037]

l.v. stands for laissez vibrer, the French for "let vibrate." It's most commonly seen in harp music, suggesting that the strings should be allowed to ring freely, but it happens a lot with percussion instruments that have long delays, too (e.g. cymbals or chimes). You may also see little ties that connect the notes to nothing - basically means the same thing. (Can't figure out why Williams uses that all over the place in his piano music, though...if anyone can shed some light on how exactly one would perform that, I'd appreciate it! I assume it just means to use any technique you want to make sure the notes ring, be it the pedal or simply holding down the keys. Still...weird.)

As for the harp symbols...are you referring to the series of vertical lines? If so, yes, that indicates tuning. If you don't know, all the strings on a harp of a given pitch are tuned simultaneously - so if you want a Bb, ALL the B strings have to be flat. If you want an F#, ALL the F strings have to be sharp. Et cetera. Each of those seven vertical lines is one of the seven notes, and its vertical placement indicates whether that note is sharp, natural, or flat. If the vertical line is above the horizontal line, that pitch is flat. If the vertical line is centered on the horizontal line, that pitch is natural. If the vertical line is below the horizontal line, that pitch is sharp. The order of the pitches is DCB | EFGA. Of course, this can be communicated simply by writing out the pitches, too, and when just a string or two needs to be changed, often they'll just write [A#] or something. But the lines are convenient in that they show the harpist exactly which positions the pedals go into.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Honestly, that sounds pretty damn complicated!

[Datameister 2,037]

It's not so bad once you get used to it. Up means flat, down means sharp, middle means natural, and then you just have to remember the weird order of the pedals (DCBEFGA). And I'd imagine it's super easy on the harpist's end, because (s)he just visually follows the diagram.

[Marc 758]

"a3" would be if you have 3 people sharing a staff, "a4" for 4 people, etc. You usually don't get more than 2 people sharing a staff in an actual part though (the music the instrumentalists are playing from), but I've seen up to 4 or 5 sharing a staff in published scores. Staff-sharing is much different in orchestral and band scores, but is useful to help cut down on the number of staves the conductor has to read.

French horns really often have a2, a4 indications.

Pretty much anytime you have those powerful horn unisons !

I've even seen some a8 ( well in fact Horn I to IV a4 and Horn V to VIII a4, but all playing the same thing

I've always wondered where that notation came from....cause in french a4 or "à 4" does mean that 4 players play the same thing..

[Datameister 2,037]

According to Kennan and Grantham's Technique of Orchestration, a2 means "to two" in Italian. And yeah, when you hear the horns playing a bold musical idea in a louder passage, you can bet that there's at least four horns playing in unison. In Williams scores, it's usually six...or even eight, such as in that first militaristic statement of the Force theme in ROTS. Incidentally, the sound of a large horn section playing these sort of passages happens to be one of my favorite types of musical sounds.

[Swordfish392 3]

As for the harp symbols...are you referring to the series of vertical lines? If so, yes, that indicates tuning. If you don't know, all the strings on a harp of a given pitch are tuned simultaneously - so if you want a Bb, ALL the B strings have to be flat. If you want an F#, ALL the F strings have to be sharp. Et cetera. Each of those seven vertical lines is one of the seven notes, and its vertical placement indicates whether that note is sharp, natural, or flat. If the vertical line is above the horizontal line, that pitch is flat. If the vertical line is centered on the horizontal line, that pitch is natural. If the vertical line is below the horizontal line, that pitch is sharp. The order of the pitches is DCB | EFGA. Of course, this can be communicated simply by writing out the pitches, too, and when just a string or two needs to be changed, often they'll just write [A#] or something. But the lines are convenient in that they show the harpist exactly which positions the pedals go into.

Complicate indeed.

But thanks for your help, always appreciated man

[Datameister 2,037]

Sure thing! Like I said, once you get used to it, it's not so bad. All you have to remember is that up means flat and that the order of the pitches is DCB EFGA.

[Jay 37,287]

Speaking of composer sketches, I've been meaning to ask: Joe, what is the sketch in your signature block from?

[Datameister 2,037]

I think that was from ESB...can't remember which cue, but I just thought it'd be fun to include one of that score's many BOOM-TZZZ's.

[Henry B 50]

It's not so bad once you get used to it. Up means flat, down means sharp, middle means natural, and then you just have to remember the weird order of the pedals (DCBEFGA). And I'd imagine it's super easy on the harpist's end, because (s)he just visually follows the diagram.

My composition teacher claims that although harp tunings should be written in as a courtesy, a harpist will rarely follow them. They're pretty self sufficient people, after all. (When have you ever heard a bad harpist?)

[ETMusic 1]

It's not so bad once you get used to it. Up means flat, down means sharp, middle means natural, and then you just have to remember the weird order of the pedals (DCBEFGA). And I'd imagine it's super easy on the harpist's end, because (s)he just visually follows the diagram.

My composition teacher claims that although harp tunings should be written in as a courtesy, a harpist will rarely follow them. They're pretty self sufficient people, after all. (When have you ever heard a bad harpist?)

I think that depends on who the harpist is AND on the experience/abilities of the orchestrator. If you do the harp diagrams well, then most harpists that I've worked with appreciate it. However, most professional harpists also insist on getting the parts in advance so they can go through and double-check and/or change the harp tunings that there.

[Swordfish392 3]

just thought about the harp tuning thing again, why don't they simply use key signatures??

also how can I make these vertical lines in sibelius? (...and no I wont switch to finale I'm just getting used to this prog )

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, a lot of the time, harp tunings will mix both sharps and flats...or just do one or the other, but in an unorthodox key signature. This makes notating it with key signatures difficult. And again, for the harpist, I'd imagine actually seeing the pictorial diagram would be the easiest solution, because (s)he would just literally follow the diagram.

As for Sibelius...no idea. Switch to Finale before it's REALLY too late.

[ETMusic 1]

just thought about the harp tuning thing again, why don't they simply use key signatures??

also how can I make these vertical lines in sibelius? (...and no I wont switch to finale I'm just getting used to this prog )

You would end up some pretty funky key signatures sometimes (e.g. when you want the harp to play a pentatonic scale).

Use the plug-in "Check Harp Pedalings" - I think it's under Plug-ins>Proofreading. You can set the notes you want and it will draw in a harp pedal diagram for you.