The Fellowship of the Ring CR Edits...

[Alan 689]

Hi all, I was reading the Prequel Resource thread and started typing a reply that seemed to address far more the discussion about the FOTR CR edits than it did the Star Wars prequel scores so I thought I'd create a thread to try and keep the Star Wars thread on topic...

With regards to the Fellowship CR, there are some odd choices/possible slip ups here and there. Perhaps original complete versions of certain cues couldn't be tracked down and so the film versions were used?

The edits seem to be as follows:

- Film version of the "descending third" motif as the Last Alliance march towards mount doom in the Prologue. Complete version is (possibly) heard on the EE chapter selection though I'm not convinced this isn't in fact the unused material we have in Parth Galen

- 'A Shortcut to Mushrooms' also stays in line with the film edit when the choir first comes in after the encounter with the Ring Wraith at the log. On the OST there was a much longer choral build. (1:47 - 2:11 on the CR; 1:09 - 1:28 on the OST)

- 'Saruman the White' retains the choral mix from the film, with the choir being absent as Saruman beginds his attack on Gandalf (I actually prefer this version)

- 'Weathertop' again reflects the film versions treatment of the choir. More than any of the others, this seems like it could be a direct rip from the film version as the choir is not totally absent. It can still be heard very faintly once dialed down. Very odd choice indeed if this was deliberate.

- 'Balins Tomb' also appears to keep a film edit at 7:47. An identical and unedited passage can be heard at the start of The Caverns of Isengard.

Whether or not Fellowship's CR was sourced from cues prepared for an isolated score, we do know that a lot of effort went into completed all 3 CRs and even if less work went into Fellowship, it still stands that the music was treated with far more care and respect than in other franchises meaning that even an isolated score of Fellowship makes for a great listening experience, if you like the music in the first place of course.

It is clear though that more effort when in to TTT and ROTK as they present "as composed" versions of various cues that are radically different to what is heard in the film, without leaving film versions unreleased. These sets, in my opinion, still stand as examples of how these things should be done.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt very much that they just used the isolated score.

They did use the takes/versions used in the film rather then the sometimes radically different versions from the OST.

[Alan 689]

I doubt very much that they just used the isolated score.

They did use the takes/versions used in the film rather then the sometimes radically different versions from the OST.

I also don't really think an isolated score was used but I can see why some would think so. I think it's more likely that decisions were made on Fellowship to try and stick as close to the film as possible without loosing too much and also putting things back in that were taken out of the finished film. Also, composer preference seems to have played a big part in the sets as 'Give Up The Halfling' sticks with the OST version of the Ford scene actually leaving the film version unreleased (at least until Doug Adam's book finally gets released with the Rarities Archive)

I missed some edits off the list. 'The Council of Elrond Assembles', 'The Departure of Boromir' and 'The Road Goes Ever On...Pt1' all have edits that reflect the film versions.

[Danielle 0]

I missed some edits off the list. 'The Council of Elrond Assembles', 'The Departure of Boromir' and 'The Road Goes Ever On...Pt1' all have edits that reflect the film versions.

Ouch. I had no idea there were quite so many film edits in the set.

Regarding "A Shortcut to Mushrooms"... I always figured that the differences between the CR version and the OST were down to the OST being an alternate.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

I wouldn't say that 'less work' went into Fellowship. I'm just pondering why these creative decisions appear to have been applied to Fellowship and not to the other two, which are clearly 'as recorded'

But it's not necessarily a bad thing. I like being able to watch the film, and then hear the same mix on the soundtrack. Putting back missing instrumentation can be annoying a lot of the time (thankfully they're mostly subtle in TTT and RotK).

I actually hope there will be isolated scores on the extended blu-rays (I don't see any reason not to - no space issues, and a chance for lossless audio).

I missed some edits off the list. 'The Council of Elrond Assembles', 'The Departure of Boromir' and 'The Road Goes Ever On...Pt1' all have edits that reflect the film versions.

Regarding "A Shortcut to Mushrooms"... I always figured that the differences between the CR version and the OST were down to the OST being an alternate.

Yeah, I don't think the two should be compared strictly. There are edits to make it fit on CD, different takes, probably a differently cut scene.

[Jim Ware 526]

For reference - FOTR OST Breakdown

This details most of the alternate takes on the original album.

It neglects to mention that both 'The Prophecy' and the unused material at the end of 'At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony' are heavily edited.

Regarding the assembly of the CR, my recollection is that the DVD dub stems (i.e. the music as edited for the picture) were used as a starting point with edits being undone and unused material inserted where appropriate.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Hmm, they obviously did a more thorough job of undoing edits for TTT and RotK then, and missed at least one unused piece.

[Jim Ware 526]

Hmm, they obviously did a more thorough job of undoing edits for TTT and RotK then, and missed at least one unused piece.

Which unused piece?

[Richard Penna 3,686]

The final part of "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" which scores the shot of Gandalf on top of Orthanc - not on the CR.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I wondered at the time why they would make such edits. Or rather, why they would keep the ones made for the film.

I still have no satisfactory answer, other than Howard Shore wanting it this way.

It is still an unsatisfactory answer, but after realising he did not restore the unedited version of the Destruction Of Mordor for the Live Performances, it didn't seem that unlikely anymore.

[Incanus 5,714]

The final part of "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" which scores the shot of Gandalf on top of Orthanc - not on the CR.

Here we should separate unused from alternate. The Isengard percussion is an alternate piece underscoring Gandalf on the top of Orthanc. One preliminary draft. The first appearance of the Evil Times motif was used in the end, which is an actual new composition and rewrite for the scene, as the film makers wanted to save the Five Beat Pattern's introduction for later (for Caverns of Isengard). This is what the Annotated Score states. The CRs present unused material yes, but they do not as a rule present the music for the same scene twice or alternate takes on a scene. And CRs use the film versions of cues (mostly unedited and in original form barring few composer's personal preferences like the Flight to the Ford aleatoric horns VS the fade out and percussion of the film version). RotK deviates from the rule with Asëa Aranion sung by Sissel as Shore obviously wanted to included that on the set as it was the original draft of the Houses of Healing that was replaced in the film by Liv Tyler's song but it is another personal call from him.

I think there had to be a balance between a coherent and complete version of these scores (loyal to the EE film presentation) as seen by the composer VS an archival release containing all and everything from the films down the last alternate.

The FotR OST contains a whole plethora of alternate takes and theatrical versions of cues compared to the CRs which nearly always has the unedited EE film version of a cue plus possible unused music. OST tracks are also edited and contain music from different sections of the film.

I am of course by no means an expert of music edited in the film VS music on the albums but I do not think there was much blundering going on with the presentation of the FotR CR. They chose EE film versions of cues over the versions heard on the OST. The OST versions were not the final intention of the composer or the film makers but something along the way to the final composition, alternate takes on the scenes in question. And in the end you have to have a logic of what version to include and they chose to include the film versions. The film versions dialed out choir passages where there were some on the OST but that was to be expected as the OSTs usually are compiled so early on that they many times lack the final film takes of cues. But think on the bright side folks. We have all of this stuff on the CRs and the OST.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

On 3/29/2010 at 1:39 AM, Incanus said:

But think on the bright side folks. We have all of this stuff on the CRs and the OST.

 

mmm, no, not all. And its very unlikelly we get all the rest in the rarities 79 min cd.

[Incanus 5,714]

But think on the bright side folks. We have all of this stuff on the CRs and the OST.

mmm, no, not all. And its very unlikelly we get all the rest in the rarities 79 min cd.

I did not mean exactly that we have all of the music as there is hours and hours of it. I meant that we have plenty in what we already have. I am all for hearing more LotR music but would you really want every take of everything composed for those films? Even I, who consider myself an obsessive fan of this music, probably could not stomach all of it (I can't remember how many hours and takes there were, Doug Adams mentioned it somewhere a good while ago, but it was A LOT). And I am sure the Rarities will bring us the most significant alternate pieces even if not everything. It is actually amazing how well we are treated with these releases.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

No i just want the OST and Ratirities disc to contain all of the threatrical film exclusive cues. If there are interesting radical alternates it could be a nice addition, but since we dont know those, we are not missing anything.

The whole recording sessions are pointless aside from lecturing purposes to new composers.

On a side note this is one of the fears I have about a proper Phantom Menace release. There must be at least two versions of the whole (or almost) battle for naboo since the film was radically edited.

I would like the actual score contain the rough cut film order with Williams original vision, not trying to reconstruct a final film cut version witout any edits. I mean i want the original gungan march playing on the main body of the score...not that toned down version we got on the OST (and god forbid to use the film version...unless williams recorded those horns, which i doubt...)

And then, if possible a whole battle of naboo alternate version (so one can choose to listen to its prefered version) as bonus cues if it fits on the 2nd CD. If it does not just the different cues would suffice, but ALL of them...

If the SEs are an indication we will get the final revised cues in the main body of the score, sandly since unlike the OT (binary sunset, sail barge assult...) Williams original vision in this movie seems to be the better and more entertaining versions.

[Jay 37,353]

Luke, I'm with you in that I want all the theatrical versions of cues on CD. But there's no way that will happen.

 

I was really excited about the rarities when it was going to be a DVD, where you could go through menus and listen to multiple versions of every cue, follow its process from original version to CR version

 

I was less excited when I found out it was going to a be a 2CD set. But still, I figured that 160 minutes ought to be enough for everything really important. Some minor things would be omitted but I was pretty sure it'd make most everyone very happy.

 

But now that it's just one CD as a bonus with Doug's book, I just don't see how 79 minutes can contain everything we all want. I think I read once there was like 8 versions of the Prologue recording.... it wouldn't surprise me if what we get on TRA is a suite of some sections of various different versions

 

I'm still as excited for Doug's book as always, and am thankful we are getting any music at all instead of no release. It's just a shame that the powers that be decided to only give us 1 CD's worth of rarities, and include it in a sleeve inside a book. Would have been cool if it was a 2- or 3-CD release in packaging that matched the CR's of the 3 movies.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Its a shame.

The three OSTS + 2 rarities CDs surely would have been enough.

[Jim Ware 526]

I think I read once there was like 8 versions of the Prologue recording....

17.

[Incanus 5,714]

I think I read once there was like 8 versions of the Prologue recording....

17.

Sure fan the flames of their discontent Jim!

[Wojo 2,453]

When you guys buy novels, do you email the author for all the rough drafts that led to the final book?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I dont need every version, i never did.

In this case, to continue with the literary example, i want the novel in which the film is based on (The score for the Extended edition of the film) as well as the film novelisation (the score for the threatrical cut of the film).

Both works published officially with their respective movies, no rough draft whatsoever.

And do i have to remind that the score oscars for FOTR and ROTK belong to the threatrical versions?

Its a crime these academy award scores are unreleased on its entirety!

[Wojo 2,453]

In this case, to continue with the literary example, i want the novel in which the film is based on (The score for the Extended edition of the film) as well as the film novelisation (the score for the threatrical cut of the film).

I'm not sure that analogy is viable.

[gkgyver 1,645]

No i just want the OST and Ratirities disc to contain all of the threatrical film exclusive cues. If there are interesting radical alternates it could be a nice addition, but since we dont know those, we are not missing anything.

I'd like to hear them as well, but, as others pointed out, it's not going to happen.

I don't think it's extraordinarily queer to prefer something I've never heard over something I have heard already. I'd rather have alternate takes than all the theatrical versions.

And, really, do you actually think there were no significant alternate takes on these films? Some of us did hear them already, and judging on the reports, they are quite outstanding.

[Jay 37,353]

For me, its not about getting theatrical cuts VS alternate, never-before heard versions.... its about getting the BEST 80 minutes of music. I'm sure whatever they pick WILL indeed the best... I just wanted the 160 BEST minutes

[John Crichton 4]

I don't have any interest in more LotR music, I'm perfectly happy with the final scores as presented in the CRs.

I really want to read the book, though.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Luke, I'm with you in that I want all the theatrical versions of cues on CD. But there's no way that will happen.

I was really excited about the rarities when it was going to be a DVD, where you could go through menus and listen to multiple versions of every cue, follow its process from original version to CR version

I was less excited when I found out it was going to a be a 2CD set. But still, I figured that 160 minutes ought to be enough for everything really important. Some minor things would be omitted but I was pretty sure it'd make most everyone very happy.

But now that it's just one CD as a bonus with Doug's book, I just don't see how 79 minutes can contain everything we all want. I think I read once there was like 8 versions of the Prologue recording.... it wouldn't surprise me if what we get on TRA is a suite of some sections of various different versions

I'm still as excited for Doug's book as always, and am thankful we are getting any music at all instead of no release. It's just a shame that the powers that be decided to only give us 1 CD's worth of rarities, and include it in a sleeve inside a book. Would have been cool if it was a 2- or 3-CD release in packaging that matched the CR's of the 3 movies.

I have to also admit that the consolidation from a DVD full of music to just one CD is disappointing. In fact they said at one point that a DVD would be used as it was the only way to store the amount of material they wanted to present. I wonder what happened to that plan.

But a CD can hold a tad under 80 mins and that's actually quite a lot as long as there aren't any 12 minute alternates we don't know about.

[gkgyver 1,645]

But there is a lengthy alternate of the Destruction Of The Ring (part of which is on the OST).

I think the DVD was scrapped, once it was decided not to include the recorded video discussions between Doug and Mr. Shore.

[Jay 37,353]

No; At first (if i'm remembering correctly), there was goign to be two DVDs....A separately sold release of music, and the free dvd that came with the book that had the video chats. Then it was just the music release. Then it was just the book with the music included and paired down to 1 CD.

[gkgyver 1,645]

To be honest, I lost track of all the paths they took.

That's the danger of making this process public. If Doug weren't allowed to keep us on track whenever possible, nobody knew about all this. And we'd be glad to have this one disc.

But I agree that the decision to change the format was a tad obscure.

I just cross my fingers they know what they're doing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We've had an simply unbelievable amount of music from these films already released.

If we get even more, that would be nice.

But it's really not a tragedy if we don't....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Apologist pig!

[gkgyver 1,645]

We've had an simply unbelievable amount of music from these films already released.

If we get even more, that would be nice.

But it's really not a tragedy if we don't....

Says you

They moved this project around for several years, saying "this will make it better in the end", so by now, the bar is pretty high.

[John Crichton 4]

Last I looked at Doug's blog he said that they'd pretty much torn the whole book down right before it was finalized and decided on a completely different design.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's half of the story.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Now you can't go saying something like that and expect us not to be curious about "the other half"...

[gkgyver 1,645]

Oh, I know you may be curious, but I also expect you to know other methods of communicating.

[Trent B 337]

I messaged Doug on Facebook and he said the Rarities Archive will be available fourth quarter of this year.

[Jay 37,353]

Well yea - didn't you read this announcement?

http://themusicofthelordoftheringsfilms.blogspot.com/2010/02/of-books-and-release-dates.html

[Trent B 337]

I really don't visit his blog.

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes the TE versions would be nice but that is not going to happen. Can someone list the major unreleased TE versions from all the three scores? I would like to know what we are missing so I may (or may not) join the choir of complaint.

And I see that most people are assuming that these 3 scores yield by the fact that they have so much recorded material, discs and discs worth of interesting alternates. That really depends on what you would count as significant and interesting. Do we need 17 takes of the Prologue if they are mostly the same, or partial takes or change one oboe line here and mute trumpets there? Is the goal to present enlightening material to illustrate a process or provide a gigantic archive of raw materials for perusal? Is having all for the sake of having more better than a solid presentation of the relevant materials by the composer? I guess you could argue that if you had all of it, you could be the judge of what is significant and what is not.

I think the logic after the DVD idea was scrapped was that they would produce a single CD that contains all the material Shore thinks is most significantly different and most significantly illustrates the compositional process and how the music changed from his preliminary ideas to the final versions we hear on CRs/films. No doubt there would be more material but I guess the combination of making the single CD presentable and the financial and corporate realities (the powers that be) resulted in only 1 CD in the end. But I am sure the effort made on this book and Rarities archive has been enormous.

And as Georg said, they have set the bar pretty high at this point. And I am sure that they will deliver.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I dont think anybody needs the recoding sessions.

Just the cues that have two finished versions (EE and TE...)

Im repeating myself...again.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I think there are like three or four theatrical versions that I would actually be interested in hearing without SFX. The others aren't really radically different compositionally methinks.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

I wouldn't turn down the sessions...

But I echo Luke - it's the major theatrical vs extended alternate cues that I'd like. It's entirely possible - there aren't that many

gkgyver - which ones specifically are you looking for w/o sfx?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I have a hard time remembering them actually ...

One would be the exit from Bree. Maybe The Last Debate. The entrace to Caras Galadhon (or is that on the OST in its entirety?).

That's all I can think of.

There is the theatrical version of Aragorn's arrival on the Pelennor, but I have that already.

[Danielle 0]

I have a hard time remembering them actually ...

One would be the exit from Bree. Maybe The Last Debate. The entrace to Caras Galadhon (or is that on the OST in its entirety?).

That's all I can think of.

There is the theatrical version of Aragorn's arrival on the Pelennor, but I have that already.

The theatrical Last Debate can be found on Battle for Middle Earth 2.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Right, forgot about that.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't have any interest in more LotR music, I'm perfectly happy with the final scores as presented in the CRs.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Most film franchises don't have two distinct cuts of each film with cues properly adapted for the different scenes.

I don't think it's an unreasonable wish to want the last few bits that make both cuts complete. And it's true that most of it is in the BFME game but it's a noticeably lower bitrate than everything else.

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't stay awake all night crying to Superman because we're missing so much LOTR music. I'm pretty content with the ~$180 investment I have already made on the CRs.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

I'm just saying that since we're getting one more CD of music, it would be nice to have the theatrical alternates amongst the other interesting things there will be. I'm not 'crying' for anything.

[gkgyver 1,645]

In the end, it all depends on the approach to the product.

If they were aiming for just a CD with unreleased LOTR music, then the theatrical cuts were a good choice. However, I think the CD was produced to give an insight on the artistic process of scoring the films, and I don't think the theatrical versions fall into that category. They were rewritten/expanded because more footage was added, and not because the thought and intention of the music was reconsidered.

The disc is produced to cover the process of the creation, that's why mock-ups will be on there as well.

I'm not saying this in defense of the release (of which we don't even know yet what it will feature specifically), but to make it clear that it's not a question of cramming all possible alternates onto a disc, but to create a product that makes sense.