Which is better?

[Quintus 5,399]

Heh heh...

[Josh500 1,615]

A mediocre John Williams vs. a mediocre James Horner.

No contest, Crystal Skull is better! Jungle Chase, A Whirl Through Academe, Irina's Theme, you kidding?

[Quintus 5,399]

I prefer Avatar.

I bet you didn't see that coming!

[Josh500 1,615]

Now, if this was about the movies, there would be no contest there, either!

Avatar, of course!

[Charlie Brigden 7]

KOTCS for movie and score.

[Quintus 5,399]

Nonsense!

[Brónach 1,301]

Now, I reaaally don't know... KOTCS is less boring and repetitive, but its highlights are not Avatar's highlights... or the other way around...

[Score 770]

I really cannot listen to Avatar's score without thinking all the time that the first two bars of the main theme are copied note-by-note from the beginning of the cue "Tartar Steppes" from the film score of "Ivan the Terrible", by Prokofiev. Which, by the way, is an outstanding cue from a wonderful score, by one of my all-time favourite composers. There are several other plagiarisms in Avatar, as it was already pointed out, but this single one really ruins it all for me. Especially because Horner could surely avoid to copy that fragment, and come up with two "original" bars! And for me it's very painful to hear those two bars followed by the Horner's prosecution, having in mind the pure beauty of Prokofiev's score.

I surely prefer good old John Williams, even in his minor efforts.

[Jonesy 55]

I prefer KOTCS , because has more action themes than Avatar.

[Melange 446]

I really cannot listen to Avatar's score without thinking all the time that the.................

Yeah that happens a lot with Horner's scores. For over a decade I'd listen to genius moments in Horner's scores that I thought he'd come up with originally, only to hear a Khachaturian piece on the radio and notice Horner had borrowed it for the beginning of "Stealing of The Enterprise" from Star Trek III. But I found that you get over the cheekiness and enjoy Horner's works still. Cheeky, yes. But he interwove such 'borrowed' moments, well. Nowadays he just re-uses his earlier creations instead.

[Andy 4,088]

KOTCS, easily. If only for the End Titles alone.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

KOTCS, Jungle chase alone is worth the ticket of admission.

[indy4 155]

This is actually tough for me. Not being a major Horner fan (I really should be, I love his stuff), I don't have many of his soundtracks, so the only Hornerism I can recognize in Avatar is the danger motif (I don't count the similarities between the love theme with that of Titanic as a Hornerism). If it really is as unoriginal as I've heard, it discredits it a litte, but I do still love most variations of the love theme.

I think overall, KotCS is better in that I like all aspects of the score--quite music, funny music, action music, etc. In Avatar the only really genius bit is the love theme, the rest is good but average.

Filmwise, easily KotCS.

[Desplat13 1]

Avatar for me.

[steb74 53]

Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull

[Brónach 1,301]

KOTCS has got something that Avatar lacks completely: great villain themes.

The love theme is better, too

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

I don't understand why KOTCS (at least, the score) got so critically panned. Maybe its because it carries the weight of hate the fans have towards the film, or to Lucas/Spielberg. Maybe the expectations were to high, I don't know really... It must be something similar to the case of ROTS, where some people love it and others say its Johnny on auto-pilot. While I agree that KOTCS has many auto-pilot stuff, there's a lot of stuff that its great. Take Irina's Theme, for example. That is something that is very fresh for Johnny, something he practically has never done before. Sure, the concert version of the CD is nothing compared to the concert arrangement, which I wish would have included on the CD. The Russians Theme is really great also.

Also, take "The Adventures of Mutt". I think it's a great theme, the problem is that its filled with so many different ideas from Hook and Home Alone that you get lost on what a great theme this is. Let's take out so much up and down scales, and the silly Home Alone bits, and we have a very good theme! And now the theme is focused, and people can whistle it more easily. Same thing goes applied to Battle of the Heroes.

I was going to continue with Call of the Crystal, but I don't wanna bother you, so I'll get straight to the point...

Is the problem the lack of a more thematic development? This must be it, because I would have loved to hear more of that variation of The Russians Theme (on the Finale cue) more developed through the score and not only heared on the Jungle Chase (which was an amazing variation, but I want more!).

Again, I ask... Could someone explain?

My vote goes to KOTCS, no doubt. The only track I hear regularly from Avatar is "Climbing up...".

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ehh...

[Trent B 337]

This is easy for me...

Avatar for both film and score.

[Ollie 1,059]

KOTCS.

Horner just doesn't bring enough new ideas to the table.

[John Crichton 4]

Indy 4: Unfortunately the majority of it sounds dull, tired, and uninspired. There are some nice redeeming qualities though: a few really good new themes, some decent and heavily thematic action cues, and a nice end credits suite that has an interesting new twist on the Raiders March.

Avatar: Basically the same old Horner, with just a smidgen more effort thrown in.

Indy 4 wins.

As far as the films go, I guess it's just a question of if you can appreciate Indy 4 for what it is- a harmless nostalgia ride, and think that's better than Avatar's visual sumptuousness. Both stories are rather crap so that's a wash.

[Red 75]

Avatar for the film.

For score? That's considerably harder to decide. For right now I'd have to go with KOTCS based just on the nostalgic feel and overall fun it has. It's not perfect by a long shot, in fact at times it's flat-out disappointing, but hearing new arrangements of the Raider's march and Marion's theme among others gave me a rush that nothing in Avatar did. I think Avatar suffers from a lack of an exceptionally strong main theme actually.

[Josh500 1,615]

KOTCS has got something that Avatar lacks completely: great villain themes.

The love theme is better, too

Yes, that's right! There is no Quaritch theme, is there? ... WTF!?

[Datameister 2,037]

Meh...I dunno. Neither composer brought too many new and exciting ideas to the table for these particular scores. I probably prefer KOTCS on the whole, but Avatar really has a way of pulling me in sometimes. Oddly enough, I even enjoyed watching Indy 4 more than I enjoyed watching Avatar - but there were a lot of reasons for that, many of which had nothing to do with the quality of the films themselves.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,505]

While neither film, nor score, were the acme of modern cinema, I did enjoy KOTCS. I own the "Avatar" c.d., but have not wanted to play it since I bought it, last December, but I might get around to it, one day... I couldn't give a rat's ass about the film, so, I guess my indiference towards "Avatar" kind of speaks for itself. KOTCS wins it, by default.

While neither film, nor score, were the acme of modern cinema, I did enjoy KOTCS. I own the "Avatar" c.d., but have not wanted to play it since I bought it, last December, but I might get around to it, one day... I couldn't give a rat's ass about the film, so, I guess my indiference towards "Avatar" kind of speaks for itself. KOTCS wins it, by default. Now, if you said "SpaceCamp" vs. "The name Of The Rose", you would get a very different response...

[Morlock 11]

I'm taking one of those ideological stances that Quint hates, and saying Indy 4. Avatar succeeds more, but it risks so much less.

[Quintus 5,399]

Ideologies cause world wars!

Besides, the only thing I saw Indy 4 "risk" (apart from putting it's star's back out, again) was the reputation of the bearded duo who threw it together, and one half of that tag team's rep was already in tatters to begin with!

Oh we're talking about the muuuuuusic? Well then I can totally appreciate your point

[Morlock 11]

I think that there was more thought and effort put into it, and with more modesty. Horner used the grand opportunity to play it as safe as any score he's ever done, and he presents it like a Herculian triumph.

EDIT: Yes, I was talking about the music.

EDIT2: And....I by mistake voted Avatar. D'oh!

[Quintus 5,399]

I agree about the way he presents it, but then he has always been a bit of a hard-done-by drama queen.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Avatar by far.

It's not even close but you can bet the lemmings here will vote for KOTCS,

Morlock talking about Horner playing it safe,

get a clue. Williams played it safe and produced a score that is only worth listening to once a year

[Morlock 11]

It would be almost impossible to play it more safe than Horner. The man used almost nothing but tried and true music. It may be more enjoyable, but that ain't because of daring or creativity. All composers push buttons for a living, but no one does it as cynically as Horner does. There are absolutely no intellectual grounds on which Horner beats Williams, only emotional grounds. In this case, that isn't strong enough for me to ignore what I take to be the particularly clinical application of music in Avatar.

[Datameister 2,037]

There is absolutely no intellectual grounds on which Horner beats Williams, only emotional grounds.

That's a good way of putting it.

[Quintus 5,399]

As much as I like Avatar's music, I have to agree with Morlock's summary of it and it's composer. This inspite of the fact that it still remains a far more successful (and I'm not talking money) score than Indy 4, and if that means an "intellectual" trade off then colour me emotional.

In this instance, the grizzled technician was outplayed by the cold and calculating exploits of a master manipulator.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

I still haven't picked up Avatar.

[steb74 53]

As much as I like Avatar's music, I have to agree with Morlock's summary of it and it's composer. This inspite of the fact that it still remains a far more successful (and I'm not talking money) score than Indy 4, and if that means an "intellectual" trade off then colour me emotional.

In this instance, the grizzled technician was outplayed by the cold and calculating exploits of a master manipulator.

Are you still on holiday man?

Anyway, I almost always take it as a given that a Williams score will be far more intellectual than most others but ultimately I think that falls into the 'big deal' category, so an emotional response is generally all that matters to me and there are many emotions to consider.

That said, I still find KOTCS infinitely more rewarding and emotionally satisfying than Avatar, even though it's a Horner score that I do actually enjoy.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

My enjoyment of AVATAR (the score) has suffered somewhat on subsequent listens and the inevitable connection with the film, but it's still okay. But even its emotional attempts seem trite and hollow, even if they did initially draw me in.

KOTCS suffers from some uninteresting and occasionally boring passages and some uninspiring action music (as well as the album presentation) but the 50's esque SF tones and the Skull theme, as well as some nice and patiently tense underscore lift it up a bit, as well as that incredible final end credit swell. Irina's Theme is pretty nifty, too.

[Datameister 2,037]

I really love the sense of "he's baaaaack..." in the first statement of the Raiders March as we Indy for the first time. And incidentally, I love that whole reintroduction of the character. The hat on the ground, the shadow, the music - it all works really well for me.

This is the part where someone tells me that moment was self-important and too showy, with a crappy rehash of existing thematic material for the score.

[Jay 37,312]

That moment was self-important and too showy, with a crappy rehash of existing thematic material for the score

[steb74 53]

I really love the sense of "he's baaaaack..." in the first statement of the Raiders March as we Indy for the first time. And incidentally, I love that whole reintroduction of the character. The hat on the ground, the shadow, the music - it all works really well for me.

That's also a part I like very much, especially the music.

I think the brass sounds great, very Golden Age to me.

This is the part where someone tells me that moment was self-important and too showy, with a crappy rehash of existing thematic material for the score.

That's when you grin, give a virtual pat on the head and walk away with a patronizing laugh

[Datameister 2,037]

It's a skill this site has given me a great deal of experience with!

Also, Jay:

[Quintus 5,399]

By the way, I do like Williams' Indy 4 score, which is actually a measure of it's quality, in my mind - I do after all despise the movie and this coupled with the fact that my taste in film music is more often than not influenced by my opinion of the film itself and JW's 'minor' achievement is clear. It's the Across the Stars effect.

@ste

Yeah mate, flew back early hours Sunday morning. Had a nice time but glad to be back - I miss my home comforts too much

[steb74 53]

Yeah mate, flew back early hours Sunday morning. Had a nice time but glad to be back - I miss my home comforts too much

Great man, glad you had a good time ....I know what you mean about home comforts, it's only when I pop back to the UK that I remember how much I love waffles, fish fingers, beans and brown sauce

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm having sausage, bacon, eggs and beans for dinner! God I've missed it!

[steb74 53]

I'm having sausage, bacon, eggs and beans for dinner! God I've missed it!

Damn, that sounds great!!

I'd take that over KOTCS and Avatar for emotional satisfaction any day of the week!

[Richard Penna 3,674]

Avatar - film and score. Easy peasy.

It's a decent film with a crap story but incredible visuals. KotCS gets worse every time I see bits of it, and has nothing that the trilogy had for me.

Horner's score may be a bit paint by numbers, but I find it an entertaining one. Outside of a few action sequences, KotCS bores the pants off me, frankly.

[John Crichton 4]

I'd rather have a mediocre Williams score that I listen to a couple/few times a year than just another Horner score that sounds more or less like all the other ones.

[Quintus 5,399]

I wouldn't, depending on the movie.

[Desplat13 1]

There are absolutely no intellectual grounds on which Horner beats Williams, only emotional grounds.

And this is why I like Avatar more.

[King Mark 3,626]

I'd rather have a mediocre Williams score that I listen to a couple/few times a year than just another Horner score that sounds more or less like all the other ones.

yeah for sure. avatar is still pretty good...by lack of any good scores coming out anyways

[Naïve Old Fart 9,505]

I still haven't picked up Avatar.

Don't bother. Horner hasn't composed a truly great score since "The Name Of The Rose".