Lost

[fommes 153]

Yeah, it revolves around realization. Like in Plato, they're looking at shadows; the sun, then, is the electromagnetic white light of course.

[ashinyobject 0]

Rose moved on.

She was in the church with Bernard.

[Datameister 2,037]

Oh, right, forgot about that. Still lame that she had to suffer through cancer again, though, even if she didn't stick around long enough for it to kill her.

Don't make them have to earn it all over again. It's just silly.

But they don't. When they remember, they stop their "virtual lives" because they realise they don't have to go through it all now anymore.

Exactly - they had to go through thirty, forty years of not remembering just so they could get to the point where they're all together again. They all learned that being together was important while they were alive. Why should they have to learn it all over again? Why should they have to go through decades of NOT remembering? They've already had the "realization", every one of 'em. That's what the show was about. Live together or die alone. Turns out it's actually more along the lines of: live together or die alone, but either way, live (sorta) alone again afterward, only to die (sorta) again together.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Locke very clearly says to Jack, "You don't have a son." It is not determined when the Sideways world originated. The characters might not have lived it in real time. In fact, a lot of them seemed to drag their frustrations from their real lives only to realize they have the answers right around them.

[Datameister 2,037]

Of course Jack didn't have a son. That doesn't mean he hasn't "lived" the last decade and a half having an experience that's indistinguishable from actually having a son. We can throw around theories about the sideways actually starting on flight 815 or about time elapsing differently - I've thought about those, too - but the bottom line is, everything suggests that these characters have been subjected to an experience that is 100% convincing. It feels just like reality to them. We've seen them experiencing everything in real time, and even if they didn't really "live" through Jack's marriage to Juliet and Hurley becoming lucky after winning the lottery and Ben living on the Island with his dad and so forth, they remember these things as if they're real. They still have impact on their current circumstances, their emotional states, their development as people. The results are indistinguishable from how they'd be if those things had "really" happened in the sideways. So it's a moot point.

The bottom line is that the sideways is just way too unsatisfying an afterlife to my way of thinking. I certainly hope I won't have to find my wife all over again after I die, just so I can be engulfed in some cheesy light. I'm having a hard enough time finding her as it is!

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Hey maybe you're living in your own Sideways purgatory and you don't know it.

[Datameister 2,037]

It's true, I could be! No weird flashes of emotionally charged memories yet, but you never know...

[Desplat13 1]

Sorry you can't enjoy the finale, Datameister. Honestly, I have never found Lost intellectually stimulating, just emotionally. I go to art for emotion, not for intellect. Maybe that's just me, but it's always been pretty easy for me to forget about things that don't make perfect sense, and still enjoying something immensely. This is kind of how the finale was for me. But I gotta say, I loved it, and found it very moving. I am just not at all sure how you managed to enjoy the first 5 seasons if you require it to make sense, since none of them really have from the beginning.

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, don't get me wrong...I still enjoy it. It's a very moving finale. But my pleasure is greatly diminished by the ending because for me, LOST was always about the perfect mixture of emotional and intellectual stimulation. Getting to know and love these characters was important, but I also deeply enjoyed all the mysterious mythology of the Island. It forced me to think, in a good way. There were certainly plenty of things we didn't have explanations for, and even some minor inconsistencies...but that's not to say that the first five seasons just haven't made any sense, period. That's an unfair assessment of the show, IMO. This last season, though, spends all this time and effort creating the perfect illusion of a genuine alternate timeline in which the Incident never took place, and in which there's some potential for consciousness to cross over with the original timeline. Everything fits perfectly up till the very end, when an explicitly religious ending is suddenly forced onto the show, turning that thoroughly unusual but thoroughly logical alternate timeline into a thoroughly cliche and thoroughly illogical afterlife.

As I've said, it wouldn't have bothered me much if that final revelation made me go, "Oh, no wonder X, Y, and Z happened! I never thought of that, yet it makes so much more sense!" But there is nothing in the sideways that is inconsistent with an alternate timeline. It just fits. And frankly, I would have been much more emotionally satisfied if that's what it had been, and the characters' consciousnesses had been able to merge into this ever-improving sideways timeline, abandoning the original one that the Island has managed to ruin so badly.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Isn't that then just the equivalent of the massive reset button? If they merged into the sideways-universe then everything that happened on the Island would have become meaningless and all the deaths reversed just for the sake of a happy ending. That's not what the show's about - one of the many themes is dealing with life and death and moving on from that. I would have been most unsatisfied if Jin and Sun's deaths ended up not mattering because they're alive and well in the other universe, it's a cheap and tired trick. Having the writers literally create an entire universe in one season just so the characters can jump over to it at the and and live happy lives would have been disrespectful to everything that came before. But spiritually and metaphorically creating a universe in the character's minds for the purpose of self-reflection and redemption is more than fitting.

What they were trying to show was that yes, in life we lose loved ones and some truly awful things can happen. We don't get second chances - whatever happens, happens and we have to deal with that in our own way. It's only in death that we can give ourselves that much needed reprieve and to be at peace with the self and others. We have the power to control our own resolution because only we can decide what we need. That's a powerful message.

[Datameister 2,037]

It's not a reset button because they retain memories of all the experiences they already had. Those experiences wouldn't be meaningless - they would just be another part of their past. An important part. As for characters' deaths not mattering...well, when we saw those deaths, we had no reason to think the sideways wasn't an alternate timeline at that point. So it amounts to the same thing. It's not as if discovering that they aren't alive in the sideways in the last ten minutes suddenly makes their death more meaningful.

I don't think having a happy ending is disrespectful at all to what happens beforehand. The deaths and the pain and the wrongdoing would still be real. And if the characters had to die in the original timeline to get to the alternate one, it'd certainly be bittersweet. It's just that they'd all be ultimately reunited, rather than having rather sad endings to their lives. Bear in mind that things did not end well in real life. Jack died alone. (Almost.) Kate and Sawyer escaped, only to live the rest of their lives without the people they loved. Hurley got stuck protecting the Island from a threat we still know nothing about, with the help of a murderer. Claire's crazy. A whole bunch of people died needlessly. And all of this is the Island's fault. Making it clear in the end that the Island is the real bad guy would have been interesting.

It's only in death that we can give ourselves that much needed reprieve and to be at peace with the self and others. We have the power to control our own resolution because only we can decide what we need. That's a powerful message.

That's not what I got at all. I got...sometimes, if you blow up a big enough nuke, you can accidentally condemn yourself to "living" through similar pains all over again after you die. Once you're in your thirties or forties, you might be lucky enough to realize what's going on, right as things are getting better and better, and then instead of sticking around to enjoy it, you get engulfed in a bright light. Unless you made a single mistake, in which case you just spend all your time hanging out in Hawaii. But at least you know you're dead and get cool powers, like teleportation, invisibility, and creepy surround-sound whispering. The good people aren't so lucky!

Powerful indeed.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It's not a reset button because they retain memories of all the experiences they already had. Those experiences wouldn't be meaningless - they would just be another part of their past. An important part. As for characters' deaths not mattering...well, when we saw those deaths, we had no reason to think the sideways wasn't an alternate timeline at that point. So it amounts to the same thing. It's not as if discovering that they aren't alive in the sideways in the last ten minutes suddenly makes their death more meaningful.

It's not supposed to give their deaths meaning - it's supposed to give their lives up until that point meaning. We had no reason to assume anything about the sideways universe, as the writers hinted very early on that it's not an alternate timeline at all, but something more. If you ignored that and were expecting your own ending then I'm not surprised you're disappointed.

I don't think having a happy ending is disrespectful at all to what happens beforehand. The deaths and the pain and the wrongdoing would still be real. And if the characters had to die in the original timeline to get to the alternate one, it'd certainly be bittersweet. It's just that they'd all be ultimately reunited, rather than having rather sad endings to their lives. Bear in mind that things did not end well in real life. Jack died alone. (Almost.) Kate and Sawyer escaped, only to live the rest of their lives without the people they loved. Hurley got stuck protecting the Island from a threat we still know nothing about, with the help of a murderer. Claire's crazy. A whole bunch of people died needlessly. And all of this is the Island's fault. Making it clear in the end that the Island is the real bad guy would have been interesting.

It's hardly a realistic message though. The death and pain and wrongdoing would still ultimately not be "real" and it's tantamount to making the whole thing a dream. The Island has always been the backdrop for these characters lives and relationships and their constant battles with themselves. To simply make the Island the reason for all their woes would completely wipe away the meaning of all their numerous flaws. Jack was interesting to watch because he was a flawed leader, a man obsessed with fixing things and who was never good enough for his father or himself. He was his own antagonist, as were all the characters. Not the Island.

That's not what I got at all. I got...sometimes, if you blow up a big enough nuke, you can accidentally condemn yourself to "living" through similar pains all over again after you die. Once you're in your thirties or forties, you might be lucky enough to realize what's going on, right as things are getting better and better, and then instead of sticking around to enjoy it, you get engulfed in a bright light. Unless you made a single mistake, in which case you just spend all your time hanging out in Hawaii. But at least you know you're dead and get cool powers, like teleportation, invisibility, and creepy surround-sound whispering. The good people aren't so lucky!

Powerful indeed.

Wait, so instead if you blow up a nuke then all your problems will go away because a better, more poetic universe will take its place? That's a terrible message.

I got the impression that the nuke was a red herring. It was simply the Incident as it always happened, and its only real function was restoring everyone to their own time.

I also think you're taking the sideways universe too literally. It's merely a representation of the inner workings of the characters when they die. Everything that happened in it didn't happen in a literal way - all the deaths and coincidences and events were ultimately just the complex workings of the human mind trying to comprehend its own demise, and we got to see an interpretation of that from two writers who - like the rest of us - have no idea what happens when we die but hope it's something good.

[Datameister 2,037]

It's not supposed to give their deaths meaning - it's supposed to give their lives up until that point meaning. We had no reason to assume anything about the sideways universe, as the writers hinted very early on that it's not an alternate timeline at all, but something more. If you ignored that and were expecting your own ending then I'm not surprised you're disappointed.

I didn't ignore it - I misinterpreted it. I thought they were just trying to drive the point home that this timeline was every bit as legitimate as the "original." I thought they were quibbling over semantics, and I was mistaken. I didn't expect "my" ending, either - I expected them to have come up with something I'd never though of, something that'd blow my mind with its amazingness. And...well, they did one of those two things.

It's hardly a realistic message though. The death and pain and wrongdoing would still ultimately not be "real" and it's tantamount to making the whole thing a dream. The Island has always been the backdrop for these characters lives and relationships and their constant battles with themselves. To simply make the Island the reason for all their woes would completely wipe away the meaning of all their numerous flaws. Jack was interesting to watch because he was a flawed leader, a man obsessed with fixing things and who was never good enough for his father or himself. He was his own antagonist, as were all the characters. Not the Island.

Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive. The Island has had an influence on their lives - and so have their own decisions and flaws. They're both important parts of the story. I never said the Island was the cause of everything bad that's ever happened.

Wait, so instead if you blow up a nuke then all your problems will go away because a better, more poetic universe will take its place? That's a terrible message.

That's why I never would have created an alternate timeline in the first place. But if you've presented something as an alternate timeline, at least stick with it!

I got the impression that the nuke was a red herring. It was simply the Incident as it always happened, and its only real function was restoring everyone to their own time.

Also lame!

I also think you're taking the sideways universe too literally. It's merely a representation of the inner workings of the characters when they die. Everything that happened in it didn't happen in a literal way - all the deaths and coincidences and events were ultimately just the complex workings of the human mind trying to comprehend its own demise, and we got to see an interpretation of that from two writers who - like the rest of us - have no idea what happens when we die but hope it's something good.

Well, if that were the case, we'd only be getting one character's side of things, which would be pretty unfair. Also, I personally am not really interested in spending half of an entire season watching a character's perimortem hallucination. I'd rather watch things that really happened. And everything in the show seems to indicate that the sideways "really" happened - just not in the real world. In other words, these would really be the characters, not just visions of them in Jack's head or Kate's head or whoever's head we're inside. It's a collective experience they're having together, not just a vision one of them is having as they die.

When all is said and done, I don't know how I would have ended the show if given control of the creative direction of all six seasons, and I certainly never could have made it as amazing as the cast and crew did, so it's not like I have anything to be mad or resentful or holier-than-thou about. I just didn't expect to be this frustrated with the end of the show. I thought there'd be a lot of unanswered questions, and I was pretty much okay with that. I wasn't anticipating a twist that would develop into a real annoyance for me.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Haha, I'm a little tired now so I don't think I'll continue this discussion but I do completely accept that you don't like the finale. We all have different ideas of what happened, I doubt even Darlton both have the same theories as each other. Thanks for the argument though, I enjoy it every now and then!

[Datameister 2,037]

Certainly! Thanks for being there to discuss this with. As I've said before, I'm very happy for anyone who enjoyed that twist more than I did.

[Wycket 36]

I guess the reason I really didn't have a problem with the alt. timeline is because I never really accepted that it was an alternate timeline. I don't follow stuff that closely, but did they ever say that's what it was or was that just an assumption that people made that everyone excepted as fact given what we were presented.

As for the whole suffering in the alternate timeline, the way I look at it that world went into existence when they should have crashed on 815 but didn't. The "it worked" statement by Juliet was my inclination that that was when they timeline began and that anything that these people lived in this alt. world was just implanted into their minds/souls/whatever so that they could go on living this life until they all came together. As Christian said, there is no time there so I don't believe that they had to go on living a whole new life just to find each other and move on. Jack's son was there for a purpose, as was Rose's cancer probably as she had to learn something from it (or perhaps Bernard had to learn to let go).

I'm sorry you can't enjoy the finale Data, but I think that maybe you were a little too swayed by what you thought the world was, that when it wasn't what you expected you felt cheated. I actually rather enjoyed the finale as it was religious in a sense, but really it was just a way for everyone to come together again. I'm not a religious man by any means, but considering that Lost really was about Jack more than anyone, he truly went full circle from a man of science to a man of faith, and the end was simply a perfect coda to that journey.

[Datameister 2,037]

I guess the reason I really didn't have a problem with the alt. timeline is because I never really accepted that it was an alternate timeline. I don't follow stuff that closely, but did they ever say that's what it was or was that just an assumption that people made that everyone excepted as fact given what we were presented.

They made comments that, in retrospect, subtly suggest it was not an alternate timeline. But everything in the show pointed to that being exactly what it was. Up until the last ten minutes of the show, it fit perfectly.

I'm sorry you can't enjoy the finale Data...

That's the second time in this thread that someone's said that to me. As I said, I do enjoy the finale, and I especially did the first time. It's just the final revelation about the sideways that really bugs me. Other than that, I thought it was an enormously satisfying, character-driven finale to the series.

I think that maybe you were a little too swayed by what you thought the world was, that when it wasn't what you expected you felt cheated.

I did feel cheated, yes, because the point of explaining a mystery is to create that "Oh, no wonder! Now that makes sense!" sort of feeling in the audience, IMO. Even if there are still many questions to be asked, the point of answering any one of them is to create a sense of satisfaction or relief. It's all about tension and release. With the sideways, there was no tension about what it was - it was clear that this was an alternate timeline created by the nuke, and the only mystery was how it was going to have relevance to events in the main timeline. So the finale essentially answered a nonexistent question. Even that can be okay if it still makes everything suddenly "click" in a way it didn't before, but that's the opposite of what it did. It took a mysterious and interesting world that nevertheless had an internal logic to it and suddenly caused it to make no sense whatsoever. My reaction was, "Huh?", not "Oh, okay, now that finally makes sense."

I actually rather enjoyed the finale as it was religious in a sense...

I'd say "in a sense" is an understatement - it was very explicitly religious. That was part of what annoyed me. I've never liked it when LOST delved into religion very much. Something about the way they approach it always bothers me. Eko's and Desmond's experiences with the Catholic church drive me crazy. And I don't have anything inherently against religion, mind you. I think it's very important in real life. But being told what happens to these characters after they die was the last question I needed the show to address.

[Wycket 36]

It's all about tension and release. With the sideways, there was no tension about what it was - it was clear that this was an alternate timeline created by the nuke, and the only mystery was how it was going to have relevance to events in the main timeline. So the finale essentially answered a nonexistent question. Even that can be okay if it still makes everything suddenly "click" in a way it didn't before, but that's the opposite of what it did. It took a mysterious and interesting world that nevertheless had an internal logic to it and suddenly caused it to make no sense whatsoever. My reaction was, "Huh?", not "Oh, okay, now that finally makes sense."

Well I can't agree with that statement at all. Fans implied that what we were seeing was a sideways world caused by the nuke. In a way we were, as the purgatory that was the sideways universe was what they wanted: a world in which the island never existed. And they got their wish. To me, creating a real alternate universe so that they could live happily ever after would have been too deus ex machina for my likings. Clearly you have problems with the faith elements of the show, but they've been their since the beginning.

Matthew Fox said something on the Jimmy Kimmel show that really helped me feel better about the whole sideways world (not that I had problems with it) in which he said that people experience a lifetime before they die. Its a well used plot device, but thats all I consider the sideways world really to be. All of the Losties experienced this world in the split-second they are between life and death. Is it real or simply all in their heads? Who knows? People who have had near death experiences talk about white light in a context outside of religion, so I really don't feel the need to connect the two together as much as you seemingly do. Going on that, all the sideways world could have been was Jack's last moments before he died and the world he created so that he felt he succeeded with Jughead (Juliet could have done a similar thing, or simply could have been trying to comfort Sawyer), and the neck wound coming back could simply be the way of his mortality coming through to end his hallucination before he dies. Personally, I have no problem with a more literal interpretation of the ending, though I hope you would agree Data that the other scenario I presented isn't hard to believe.

Either way I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the finale (this time I'll remember the wink ).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

With the sideways, there was no tension about what it was - it was clear that this was an alternate timeline created by the nuke, and the only mystery was how it was going to have relevance to events in the main timeline.

That's your problem. Lindelof and Cuse blatantly said the sideways was not an alternate timeline at the beginning of the season.

[Datameister 2,037]

That's your problem. Lindelof and Cuse blatantly said the sideways was not an alternate timeline at the beginning of the season.

When did they ever say that? As far as I know, they said that they were not referring to it in-house as an "alternate timeline." They never said it wasn't a timeline at all; based on the information we had at the time, the most reasonable assumption I could make was that they were stressing the validity of the sideways. It wasn't some alternate thing - it was every bit as real as the so-called "original" timeline, not just some bastard child. I'm repeating myself here...I've already explained all this. If they ever explicitly said that this wasn't another real version of 2004, please cite that.

AND...in any case, it's a moot point. Although Darlton's communication with the fans over the years is to be highly commended and appreciated, one should not have to depend on that to understand the show. As they've said, the show should speak for itself, to a certain extent. And the show did speak for itself. It quite clearly suggested that this was an alternate timeline in which there was some sort of mysterious cross-over of memories and emotions. As I've said, my biggest problem with the final explanation is that it doesn't explain anything. It takes something that was already very clear and makes it very unclear.

Clearly you have problems with the faith elements of the show, but they've been their since the beginning.

No - I have problems with the religious elements of the show. They're quite distinct. Faith has been an ever-present element that I've usually enjoyed. The end of "The End" had nothing to do with faith and everything to do with religion, which has been a much less frequent theme in the show and, to my tastes, a much less enjoyable one.

Fans implied that what we were seeing was a sideways world caused by the nuke.

Only because that's what we were purposely led to believe.

In a way we were, as the purgatory that was the sideways universe was what they wanted: a world in which the island never existed. And they got their wish.

Yes and no. Jack, Juliet, Sayid, and Jin weren't hoping to die on the Island...Sawyer and Kate weren't hoping to live the rest of their lives without their loved ones...Hurley wasn't hoping to be stuck on the Island, protecting it from some unknown threat. They got to have the Island-less experience they wanted, yes, but only after suffering a lot of the sort of hardship they were trying to avoid.

To me, creating a real alternate universe so that they could live happily ever after would have been too deus ex machina for my likings.

I agree. I never would have done anything with the nuke in the first place. No idea how they would have got out of 1977 in the first place, though...

All of the Losties experienced this world in the split-second they are between life and death. Is it real or simply all in their heads? Who knows?

As I've said, I'm unsatisfied either way. If it's just happening in their heads at the moment of death, this can only be one character's experience, not all of them. If it's all a cognitive phenomenon at the moment of death, each person would experience the sideways very differently, and so we'd only be getting one side of the story.

People who have had near death experiences talk about white light in a context outside of religion, so I really don't feel the need to connect the two together as much as you seemingly do.

Maybe it was the fact that it happened in a church, surrounded by symbols from countless religions? Besides, I'm not just talking about organized religion here. I'm talking about general ideas about what happens to people after they die. I didn't need LOST to ever address that. In the context of this show, "dead is dead" worked just fine for me.

Personally, I have no problem with a more literal interpretation of the ending, though I hope you would agree Data that the other scenario I presented isn't hard to believe.

Either way is pretty hard for me to believe.

In any case, at the moment, I'm not on a huge LOST kick anymore. Probably my brain's way of reducing cognitive dissonance because the show's over and I didn't particularly like one of the elements of how it ended. But I'm sure at some point I will re-watch some or all of the show (and then again...and again...) and I'll get to enjoy all of the show's many strengths yet again. It blows me away that in this day and age of endless reboots, crappy made-for-TV movies, infinite permutations of the standard crime drama, Hannah Montana, and the like...we got something like LOST. An intelligent, interesting, funny, dramatic, action-packed, thoughtful, philosophical, mysterious, discussion-provoking show that bent all the rules and earned a huge fanbase of people like us. Regardless of how I may feel about ~7 minutes of material at the end of the finale, the show as a whole is phenomenal. Television at its finest. And I'm looking forward to getting more perspective on that once my significant annoyance at this one piece of the puzzle fades.

[Jacob 0]

I re-watched the pilot (for the second time only) and then watched the finale again, back to back.

It was great being reintroduced to all the characters again (after having forgotten so much) and knowing how it was all going to turn out.

*cue dramatic camera angles of John Locke*

The finale certainly wasn't as impactful as the first time around, but still had me grinning ridiculously at many parts.

(Also, I think Hurley and Jack's scene at the end is one that was just as powerful the second time through.)

I can't say that I'm fully satisfied with the twist itself, but it doesn't actively annoy me either.

It was more of a "oh... what?" moment that kind of got lost in all the emotion.

Admittedly it didn't really feel like a classic LOST "damn that was brilliant" moment.

It's still weird that it's all over now. But I've been re-watching the series and thoroughly enjoying it (again).

Giachinno's music is really standing out to me this time around.

I'm up to White Rabbit.

[fommes 153]

I read somebody talking in the Karate Kid thread about a Season 6 theme; is it that sideways theme that's mostly played when Desmond is pulling the strings? I love that! It's my favourite new theme, I think. So it'll be left off the season 6 soundtrack for sure!

[Datameister 2,037]

It'll be on there, I'm sure. And yes, we're thinking of the same theme. As usual, Koray and I can't see quite eye-to-eye on things - he thinks the theme is one of S6's best, whereas I think it's pretty good but not truly exceptional.

[fommes 153]

I agree with Koray though! What theme(s) do you prefer?

[Datameister 2,037]

I really liked Giacchino's work in S6 overall, but Richard's theme, the two MIB themes, and maybe Jack's sideways theme are among my favorites. I think the Temple theme is really good, but sometimes it starts to annoy me, mostly by virtue of its association with Dogen, whose presence in the show really aggravated me.

[Red 75]

I think the Temple theme is really good, but sometimes it starts to annoy me, mostly by virtue of its association with Dogen, whose presence in the show really aggravated me.

Good thing he was only a few episodes then.

And the sideways was not the afterlife, or at least not in the traditional way. It was a place that existed outside of space and time created for the island people, for them to find one another again and move on to that big bright light (effectively Heaven). It's important to remember that it did not run on a specific time-table, these characters constructed their false lives in a nanosecond, they didn't really live entire lives there. It seems to me that its creation had something to do with the island since it was only for those who had helped the island in some way, so characters like Dogen were there even though they did not play a big role in all the Losties' lives. So it wasn't just a fabrication of the Losties, although that was never explicitly stated in the episode. It was an alternate timeline in a sense with strange cross-overs to the Island timeline, the reveal that it was a construct for these characters after their lives doesn't change that. In fact it only cements what exactly the timeline was and how it connected to the island timeline, which is what we were all wondering anyway.

[Datameister 2,037]

Good thing he was only a few episodes then.

Seriously...I've never been so happy to see a LOST character die!

And the sideways was not the afterlife, or at least not in the traditional way.

But it happened...after...life...

It was a place that existed outside of space and time created for the island people, for them to find one another again and move on to that big bright light (effectively Heaven). It's important to remember that it did not run on a specific time-table, these characters constructed their false lives in a nanosecond, they didn't really live entire lives there.

The actual, literal, physical duration of the experience is unknown and - more to the point - 100% irrelevant. To the characters, it ostensibly felt like half a lifetime. Sure, Rose didn't actually have cancer all over again. But to her spirit or soul or whatever people have in the LOST universe, the illusory experience of suffering with cancer was identical to the real thing. Sun didn't really get shot; she'd already drowned long ago. But she still had all the same feelings that she would have had if she'd been shot in real life.

It seems to me that its creation had something to do with the island since it was only for those who had helped the island in some way...

Well, we don't really know that. There were plenty of people seen in the sideways that had nothing to do with the Island, and we simply don't know if they were other real dead people or just figments of the Losties' imaginations.

It was an alternate timeline in a sense with strange cross-overs to the Island timeline, the reveal that it was a construct for these characters after their lives doesn't change that.

By its very definition, an alternate timeline happens right alongside other timelines. It happens simultaneously, not afterward. As far as we can tell, the sideways happened in the same timeline we've been seeing all along. It just happened after all the characters had died. The sideways 815 didn't land in 2004; it landed much later, once all of them were dead. And I was much more interested in finding out what would have happened (both character-wise and mythologically) if flight 815 had never crashed than in finding out what did happen to the characters after they died.

[fommes 153]

It could also be argued that Rose knew all along, that they were in fact the first to 'awaken' (so she didn't have to drag along the cancer again...). 1) She told Jack he could let go now + 2) Bernard also appeared to know already, when he said "of course" when Jack asked how come he still remembered Locke as a patient.

[Red 75]

^ I could buy that, since Rose was the first in the alt to tell Jack to "let go", and when he visited Bernard later he seemed very aware of what was really going on.

By its very definition, an alternate timeline happens right alongside other timelines. It happens simultaneously, not afterward. As far as we can tell, the sideways happened in the same timeline we've been seeing all along. It just happened after all the characters had died. The sideways 815 didn't land in 2004; it landed much later, once all of them were dead.

Like I said the sideways exists outside of time, it did not occur after or before anything. It took place in a dimension outside of the real, living world. Basically it was purgatory, a way-station created by island inhabitants that exists between life and Heaven (or whatever you call the afterlife).

[Datameister 2,037]

Actually, you said:

...it was a construct for these characters after their lives...

[emphasis mine]

Of course, it may have been an unintentional way of wording it, but it came out as the truth. Although the all-knowing dead Christian Shepherd says that time doesn't really have meaning in the sideways, it's clear that it happens after the events in the show, because everyone is dead. Within this sideways world, maybe time kinda does its own thing, but it doesn't completely lack any temporal relationship with the real events of the show. It happens after those events. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense for Jack to (correctly, according to Christian) say, "I died."

[Red 75]

But they all die at different times, whether it was in Season 1 or in the case of Hurley and Ben possibly hundreds of years after the events on the island. It doesn't matter when, only that they all eventually pass on and find themselves in the sideways on Oceanic 815 all over again. The "after" would only relevant to the individual, not the entirety of the timeline.

[Datameister 2,037]

...I'm not following. Yes, they all die at different times, and yet they all end up experiencing the sideways simultaneously. After they die. Not simultaneously with the events of season 1, which is how it would be if it were a true alternate timeline, as the entire season suggested till the last ten minutes.

[Red 75]

...I'm not following. Yes, they all die at different times, and yet they all end up experiencing the sideways simultaneously. After they die. Not simultaneously with the events of season 1, which is how it would be if it were a true alternate timeline, as the entire season suggested till the last ten minutes.

Ok, so it does take place over they die. But that doesn't mean it wasn't an alternate timeline, it doesn't have to run parallel to the real timeline for it to be. If anything it was an epilogue, what collectively happens to all the characters after they die.

[Datameister 2,037]

But that doesn't mean it wasn't an alternate timeline, it doesn't have to run parallel to the real timeline for it to be.

As far as I know, that's generally what alternate timeline means. It refers to a parallel universe of sorts that diverges from another when some event occurs differently for whatever reason. Of course, in some fiction, such as the BTTF universe, you just overwrite the original timeline when something changes, and in some fiction, such as Harry Potter, you can't change it at all. But the third option is to have these alternate timelines that run parallel to the so-called "original", with simultaneous events happening differently because of some key discrepancy.

If anything it was an epilogue, what collectively happens to all the characters after they die.

Exactly. It's an epilogue. A metaphysical flash-forward. Not a genuine glimpse of what happened in a parallel universe in which the Incident never took place. Which disappoints me, because that was a very viable concept for exploring the characters and the mythology of the show. This whole time, I was trying to figure out how the Island's absence was causing all these differences, and I was looking forward to that tying into the plot somehow, in addition to all the great character-driven stuff. Turns out we still have no idea what actually would have happened if the Incident had never taken place. Which I would have been fine with if I hadn't spent the last few months being led to believe that's what we were getting to see!

[Red 75]

I see no problem with it being an alternate timeline of sorts that exists after or outside of the regular timeline, I don't think there's any rule that a another timeline/universe has to run parallel to another (in fact many people theorized early in S6 that it was an epilogue, showing events that happened after whatever happened on the island). And it could still be argued that it's parallel anyway since it technically doesn't take place in any specific time, in such a case the characters would only need to "switch" to this reality once they've died and exist there until they remember their past lives and move on into the true afterlife. It still showed what these characters' lives would have been like without the island/crash/incident, regardless of its origin or true nature.

[Datameister 2,037]

I see no problem with it being an alternate timeline of sorts that exists after or outside of the regular timeline, I don't think there's any rule that a another timeline/universe has to run parallel to another...

In my experience, that's what "alternate timeline" generally means. And based on the all-knowing Wikipedia and Memory Alpha, I get the impression I'm not alone on that. I mean, certainly, there can be other timelines that are just part of a totally different canon. For instance, I would argue that the Harry Potter books and The X-Files do NOT take place in parallel timelines. Both start in the early 90s, but I consider them part of completely different fictional universes. They are not simply alternate possibilities of what could have happened in the same universe, had things played out a little differently. But we're talking about a single franchise in which the first 15.9 episodes of the final season clearly implied that we were viewing an honest-to-goodness alternate timeline. Rather than rewriting the audio data on Faraday's figurative temporal record, Jughead's detonation made a duplicate disc in which everything's different after the 8th track. But they sometimes rub together when the conditions are right, which allows information - memories, emotions, even physical wounds - to bleed across a little. That's what the entire season was suggesting up until the final ten minutes, at which point they completely changed the game with a different explanation that doesn't fit everything we've already seen.

(in fact many people theorized early in S6 that it was an epilogue, showing events that happened after whatever happened on the island).

I had a friend who suggested that early on. I blew it off, and I was basically right - it wasn't a flash-forward in the sense that he thought it was. But it was a flash-forward. Just a metaphysical one.

And it could still be argued that it's parallel anyway since it technically doesn't take place in any specific time, in such a case the characters would only need to "switch" to this reality once they've died and exist there until they remember their past lives and move on into the true afterlife.

See, in the same sentence you're contradicting yourself. The phrase I put in bold says one thing - time has no meaning, it doesn't take place at any point in time, etc. - and the stuff in underlined italics says another - this takes place in a somewhat specific part of the real-world timeline, and events within it do have real temporal relationships between them, so that one event can happen after another. Not that I blame you - the show contradicts itself in the same way. That's part of why the whole thing is so silly!

And can ANYONE explain why Christian died again in the sideways...only to randomly show up again as a "living" person? Especially when folks like Keamy were able to die in the sideways for real? Furthermore, if he spent his "life" in the sideways as a difficult, drunken man, why did he become all kindly and sober guy once he'd died for the second time? And why does he suddenly know everything? Not only is he aware of everything that happened to Jack and all these people he never met on an island he never visited, but he knows the real nature of the sideways and gets to open the doors to the light.

It still showed what these characters' lives would have been like without the island/crash/incident, regardless of its origin or true nature.

What makes you think this is how things would have played out in real life? There's no evidence of that.

Gasp! I just though of an explanation I really like. Maybe I'll finally be able to sleep at night. Okay, here goes:

The sideways is a genuine alternate timeline, just like we were lead to believe. In this timeline, the detonation of Jughead released the light that's supposed to be bottled up under the Island. That light is actually just part of the same entity as the black smoke; they make up complementary halves of the same being. Yin and yang, as it were. That's why the smoke monster came out of the light in the first place in "Across the Sea." Now both have been released into the world - and surprisingly, it's a better place, for whatever reason. But they still want the candidates dead in this timeline, because they could potentially discover the secret to resurrecting the Island and trapping the dark AND the light yet again. So Smokey assumes the form of Christian, convinces as many candidates as possible that they're dead, gathers them in the church - a nice, enclosed space where they can't escape - and lets the light in so it can give everyone a really killer sunburn. Problem solved, show over.

I feel much better now.

[Incanus 5,713]

Nice to see that you are now ready to move on Data. This thread has actually been just a purgatory-like state where you have been able to solve some unsolved issues about the Lost finale.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

[Datameister 2,037]

This.

[fommes 153]

That's it! The white light is killer sunburn! Excellent.

[Red 75]

And can ANYONE explain why Christian died again in the sideways...only to randomly show up again as a "living" person? Especially when folks like Keamy were able to die in the sideways for real? Furthermore, if he spent his "life" in the sideways as a difficult, drunken man, why did he become all kindly and sober guy once he'd died for the second time? And why does he suddenly know everything? Not only is he aware of everything that happened to Jack and all these people he never met on an island he never visited, but he knows the real nature of the sideways and gets to open the doors to the light.

He didn't die again, that was only Jack imagining his death again, the coffin was empty. Keamy wasn't real. Chances are Christian (being the Shepard) always knew about the sideways and didn't confront Jack until he was ready, whatever "life" he lived there doesn't make any difference. It's unclear why he knew, but then again he was always tapped in to the mythology of the show for unknown reasons.

[Datameister 2,037]

He didn't die again, that was only Jack imagining his death again, the coffin was empty.

So what was Christian doing between his apparent death and his appearance in the church? Just taking a nap in the coffin? Sightseeing? Starting a third family? Of course he didn't literally die again, just like Oceanic 815 didn't literally land in LAX, and Sun didn't literally get shot, and so forth. But within the sideways, all these things happened. That's the only sensible way to talk about it. And there's nothing to indicate that Christian's death within the sideways was just imagined.

Keamy wasn't real.

Why not? There's no evidence of that whatsoever. Furthermore, the all-knowing Christian said that everything that'd happened was..."real"...

Chances are Christian (being the Shepard) always knew about the sideways and didn't confront Jack until he was ready, whatever "life" he lived there doesn't make any difference. It's unclear why he knew, but then again he was always tapped in to the mythology of the show for unknown reasons.

There's virtually nothing unknown about his previous involvement in the mythology*. He was a pathetic guy who drunk himself to death in Sydney. His son picked up his body and was flying it back to the States. But because his son was a candidate, he was brought to the Island, which (to Smokey's delight) brought a very convenient dead body with him. Smokey assumed Christian's form to lead Jack to fresh water so that the Losties could survive long enough to ensure that the plan to kill Jacob went off flawlessly. He also helped that plan along by pretending to speak for Jacob so Locke would listen to his instructions. It also allowed him to gain influence over Claire, who became a significant ally for a while. Once the plan to kill Jacob succeeded, Smokey stuck with Locke's body, and Christian's involvement in the mythology was over.

In other words, Christian wasn't involved at all in the mythology. He was just some guy whose appearance Smokey mimicked. But in the sideways, he suddenly becomes this kind dude with all the answers. It just doesn't make any sense. It's totally inconsistent with all that's happened.

And if that one post was truly written by one of the show's writers, that ending was written before Jack's father had even been introduced in the show. So it's unsurprising that he's a totally different character in that scene than in any other part of the show.

* Okay, we don't know why his body disappeared, or why he was able to appear on the freighter to Michael even though Smokey can't cross large bodies of water. But I'm thinking these were both instances of the creators of the show simply not knowing everything that was going to happen.

[Red 75]

Keamy wasn't real.

Why not? There's no evidence of that whatsoever. Furthermore, the all-knowing Christian said that everything that'd happened was..."real"...

Everything that happened on the island was real, but the sideways was a construct. Locke tells Jack point-blank that he does not have a son, because he was made-up by Jack in this world to deal with his daddy issues. Keamy (and other side characters who died in the sideways) were made-up by the characters as well.

[Brónach 1,301]

If the sideways world is disconnected of the original world I don't see the point of it.

[Datameister 2,037]

Everything that happened on the island was real, but the sideways was a construct....Keamy (and other side characters who died in the sideways) were made-up by the characters as well.

And yet Christian tells Jack that both of them are "real", just like everyone in the church. We have no way of knowing if anyone in the sideways wasn't real.

Locke tells Jack point-blank that he does not have a son, because he was made-up by Jack in this world to deal with his daddy issues.

So now Locke is all-knowing, too? Locke was remembering his experiences on the Island, in which Jack surely mentioned at some point that he had no son. That's all I interpreted it to mean. The line might as well have been, "You didn't have a son."

This is why this is all so messy. It creates confusion where there was previously some understanding and satisfaction. Jack getting to actually have a literal living son and connect with him is far more compelling than him imagining a nonexistent son with whom he can resolve daddy issues he already let go of.

Speaking of which...there's this idea that all the characters are using the sideways to move past their problems. Can anyone point me to any specific examples? Jack was no longer hung up on his father's opinions. Rose had accepted her cancer and been healed afterward to boot. Ben was a great number 2 and presumably redeemed himself while he was alive. Kate had learned to stop running. Sawyer had moved past his issues with Anthony Cooper. Miles had resolved his daddy issues. Boone had let go of his attachment to his sister, who had learned (sorta) to stop being superficial and so forth with her relationships. Hurley didn't seem to consider himself unlucky anymore. Sayid had repented for his actions in the war and even managed to redeem himself again after he'd been involuntarily transformed into a smoke monster zombie. Sun and Jin had moved past their issues with trust and intimacy and kindness and...physical togetherness.

All this happened in real life. What was there left to take care of afterward? Claiming they still had issues to work out simply doesn't match up with the facts. All they had left to do was be together again - and that could have been taken care of much more simply. Just send them directly into the light together when they die! That simple. Don't even need to show it.

[Brónach 1,301]

I find myself smiling in agreement everytime Datameister writes about this show.

Plus, I think there's a huge problem withe the original world ending: it's not conclusive, and we don't know what is going on really. There's no reason why the viewers should care about some things that happen. I thought there would be a brief "revelation" moment when Desmond first goes into the cave, but no.

But for example, in The Last Crusade, everything is explained before the ending so you know what's happening and care about it.

[Jay 37,287]

Speaking of which...there's this idea that all the characters are using the sideways to move past their problems. Can anyone point me to any specific examples? Jack was no longer hung up on his father's opinions. Rose had accepted her cancer and been healed afterward to boot. Ben was a great number 2 and presumably redeemed himself while he was alive. Kate had learned to stop running. Sawyer had moved past his issues with Anthony Cooper. Miles had resolved his daddy issues. Boone had let go of his attachment to his sister, who had learned (sorta) to stop being superficial and so forth with her relationships. Hurley didn't seem to consider himself unlucky anymore. Sayid had repented for his actions in the war and even managed to redeem himself again after he'd been involuntarily transformed into a smoke monster zombie. Sun and Jin had moved past their issues with trust and intimacy and kindness and...physical togetherness.

Woah...... you're completely wrong here.

- When Jack died in real life, he hadn't worked out all his daddy issues yet. He needed to be a dad in the sideways in order to understand and be able to "let go"

- When Boone died in real life, he was still in love with Shannon, and had only a month prior paid once again for a guy to leave her alone. He needed to allow her to be happy with Sayid in the sideways to be able to "let go"

- When Sayid died in real life, he was still in love with Nadia. He had to "let go" of his romantic pursuit of her and accept her as nothing more than a sister-in-law

- Sawyer and Miles were conmen and swindlers in real life. In the sideways, they got up be police officers and help humanity rather than hurt it

- In real life, Charlie was consumed by a quest for fame, ultimately becoming a heroin addict because of it. In the sideways, he was able to "let go" of that pursuit, shown when he was more interested in his vision of Claire than the rock concert

[fommes 153]

Well argued, Jason.

I always found the son really exemplified the sideways, as a viewer. On the one hand, you get to like him; he's fun + it's one of the best, if not the best sideways scenes when Jack and him come to terms with each other. On the other hand, it's really obvious that he's a construct: he looks like Jack, he acts the same way, he walks the same way, they even wear pretty much the same clothes - which is something everyone noticed but him being a construct really explains that; it's one of the few actual ah-now-it-comes-together things that the final twist reveals.

[Datameister 2,037]

Sorry, Jay, but I definitely disagree:

When Jack died in real life, he hadn't worked out all his daddy issues yet. He needed to be a dad in the sideways in order to understand and be able to "let go"

Where's the evidence of that? In the final episodes, he was certain of his importance, of his worth. He knew he'd screwed a lot of things up, yes, but he wasn't living in the shadow of his father anymore. He'd buried him.

When Boone died in real life, he was still in love with Shannon, and had only a month prior paid once again for a guy to leave her alone. He needed to allow her to be happy with Sayid in the sideways to be able to "let go"

That's not at all true. Locke tied him up and drugged him to help him "let go", which he did. He realized the hold his sister had on him, and he stopped being jealous and possessive. He let her be with Sayid. Then he died.

When Sayid died in real life, he was still in love with Nadia. He had to "let go" of his romantic pursuit of her and accept her as nothing more than a sister-in-law

Which still makes no sense to me. Why should he have to let go of her? For all the other folks, it was important to restore their relationships, not abandon them. Of course he was attached to her - they were meant to be together! They were so happy while they were married. I don't buy the whole thing about her representing his past as a torturer, either; as I've said, I think she was what got him out of that in the first place.

Sawyer and Miles were conmen and swindlers in real life. In the sideways, they got up be police officers and help humanity rather than hurt it

That's what they were before coming to the Island. Sawyer became an honest man who helped his friends, protected the DHARMA Initiative, and nearly married a woman with whom he was in a healthy relationship. He was redeemed, which was a huge part of why his character was so interesting. Similarly, Miles went from being a really unpleasant guy to someone trustworthy and real, who also helped protect the DHARMA folks, and so forth. He was redeemed, too.

In real life, Charlie was consumed by a quest for fame, ultimately becoming a heroin addict because of it. In the sideways, he was able to "let go" of that pursuit, shown when he was more interested in his vision of Claire than the rock concert

He no longer cared much about fame or heroin when he died. He was more interested in protecting and saving Claire than in his own fortunes, and he'd kicked the heroin habit already. He, too, was redeemed.

All these characters were healed on the Island. They found themselves. That was the spiritual thrust of the show, the highest purpose for the show's name. These people were lost, and the only way they could find themselves was, ironically, to become lost. That's what happened to them, one by one. They overcame their past weaknesses and became better people, together. I was emotionally connected to that story. For me, it cheapens the whole thing for them to have to start at square one and be redeemed all over again after they die.

Another example: Claire overcame her desire to just abandon Aaron with whoever would adopt him. She became a loving mother and, even after going totally insane, she still wanted to protect and raise him. In the sideways, she had to start all over again with wanting him out of her life and then realizing she wanted him after all, yet again. Like all the others, the point was that the experiences on the Island helped heal her. This totally contradicts that by saying they have to relearn it all again.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Joe, there's a huge difference between learning to live with your issues and actually solving them.