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Potterdom Film/Score Series Thread


John Crichton

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Sorry  i didn't mean to sully this thread with Lotr talk. I care nothing for those films and the music is uninteresting to me. 

I am  glad for those who like it, glad it reaches them. 

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Hey Potterdom is my creation i created it during the HP/Lotr battle. Alex demanded some relief thus Potterdom. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Are you John Crichton?

No. John C was a mod back then. My original Potterdom thread had long exceeded the then maximum allowed 100 pages. It was closed and John created the 2nd  thread to continue the discussion. 

 

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That’s just what makes Howard Shore Howard Shore and what makes John Williams John Williams.

 

The one takes such a profoundly scholarly approach; the other, a more...I don’t know...theatrical?...one. Which in no way suggests that Shore’s approach lacks in emotional heft or that Williams’ lacks in cerebral depths.

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There's also the fact that I don't think Williams ever needed to write something as operatic as Shore's Lord of the Rings. As Chen said, the schedules of the productions for say, Star Wars, didn't facilitate this kind of grand pre-planning, but that's what's great about the later films - they can be accommodating to a myriad of themes in the way they couldn't have from the beginning. I don't think we'll ever know what he would've done given the opportunity, but don't you think he started something with Potter, probably expecting to keep developing the themes on? I guess the shake-up in directors also pissed that dream away...

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6 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

But Williams’ is stronger at the per film level.

 

I wouldn’t know about that. The Breaking of the Fellowship and other climactic pieces of his still get me going like few things.

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10 hours ago, Arpy said:

There's also the fact that I don't think Williams ever needed to write something as operatic as Shore's Lord of the Rings. As Chen said, the schedules of the productions for say, Star Wars, didn't facilitate this kind of grand pre-planning, but that's what's great about the later films - they can be accommodating to a myriad of themes in the way they couldn't have from the beginning. I don't think we'll ever know what he would've done given the opportunity, but don't you think he started something with Potter, probably expecting to keep developing the themes on? I guess the shake-up in directors also pissed that dream away...

 

Williams has never had an equivalent opportunity - for the 3 series for which he wrote 3 scores each - Star Wars, Indiana Jones and HP - they all had different circumstances.

 

Stars Wars as noted above was written film from film. There was no grand design, atleast none communicated to Williams. So he scored them film to film. Also the films were shot and released over a 7 year period and Williams was in his prolific period then. He couldn't just stop - write themes for a movie coming out 7 years later and then then score 6 years later etc. And again, there was no sense of a grand design.

 

Indiana Jones is individual episodes with a new adventure in every episode. So characters etc do not carry over from one installment to the other typically. So there is no concept of a grand design there.

 

Harry potter is the closest in comparison. A grand saga that Williams could indeed have potentially planned for because he would know exactly where the story was going to go, which characters were going to emerge etc. But even hear, having different directors made each film so entirely different, that a consistent tapestry was not possible. HP 3 is so entirely different in tone, directorial style, color palette, themes, even set design and costume design, cinematography from what came previously that Williams wrote a completely new score - chucking out most of his old themes and writing in a new may. Also the 3rd film abandons the central Harry-Voldemort conflict and does a different story.

 

One would say, with these enormous challenges, Williams managed quite well. His still managed to establish an overarching main theme for each franchise and provide each series with a unmistakable musical identity.

 

One would say Shore hasn't done quite well. When I ask people what is the main theme or music identity of the LOTR films - I get 3 responses - Shire Theme, Fellowship theme and Gondor theme. So maybe Shore did not do a great job of establishing 1 primary overall idea.

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I wouldn’t know about that. The Breaking of the Fellowship and other climactic pieces of his still get me going like few things.

You know, I wish I could agree with this, but I find FOTR to be a very simplistic score to listen to. Great themes, but no development at all and quite repetitive.

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1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

One would say Shore hasn't done quite well. When I ask people what is the main theme or music identity of the LOTR films - I get 3 responses - Shire Theme, Fellowship theme and Gondor theme. So maybe Shore did not do a great job of establishing 1 primary overall idea.

 

Shore didn’t work with the concept of a “main theme” in mind. If ever there was one, it would be The History of the One Ring Theme rather than any of the other ones you mentioned. But these scores really aren’t constructed that way.

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There is an entire Tolkien subform to discuss this d&d borefest. Wouldn't you all be happier there?. 

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That works too.

John Williams scores I think are better than the Lotr stuff.

 

The Reivers,

The Cowboys,

The Towering Inferno,

JAWS, 

Star Wars,

Close Encounters of the Third Kind,

Superman the Movie,

1941,

The Empire Strikes Back,

Raiders of the Lost Ark, 

E.T. the Extra-terrestrial and his Adventure on Earth. 

Return of the Jedi

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom,

The Color Purple,

Empire of the Sun,

Home Alone

Jurassic Park, 

Schindler's List,

The Phantom Menace 

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone 

Harry Potter and the Chamber if Secrets

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

The Terminal

War Horse

TinTin

Star Wars The Force Awakens.

 

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54 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

quite repetitive.

 

Listen to something like Kilar's intended Dracula and then you'll learn what repetitive means.

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I really like it and respect the effort to include as much as possible. But yeah it's a toolbox you pretty much have to wittle down and personalise to make listenable - it's the reason I'm debating actually getting it, since I would listen to Discs 1+2 very rarely as they are.

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1 hour ago, Holko said:

For a story and adaptation as grand as LotR, do you even need a single primary idea to drive it? That seems very arbitrary.

 

Of course. To give it coherence and tie it all together. LotR is a single novel, a single book, a single work, even though it might have multiple parts.

 

It kinda shows the diffuseness of his work and a weakness of construction. 

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9 minutes ago, Holko said:

I really like it and respect the effort to include as much as possible. But yeah it's a toolbox you pretty much have to wittle down and personalise to make listenable - it's the reason I'm debating actually getting it, since I would listen to Discs 1+2 very rarely as they are.

 

Have you checked out his first piano concerto? It's quite repetitive, but I really like it!

 

 

10 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Of course. To give it coherence and tie it all together. LotR is a single novel, a single book, a single work, even though it might have multiple parts.

 

It kinda shows the diffuseness of his work and a weakness of construction. 

 

That's some weird shit.

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Unless they have the single volume editions. If you ever open them, they are further separated into two books each, numbered 1-6, even in the three-volume editions.

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What long-running, cyclical film series has one main theme binding all the entries, anyway?

 

Star Wars has the main title material but - looking at all eight entries - its not really used too extensively in the body of most of the scores in the series. You could say The Force Theme is the main theme, but that comes at the cost of it a) losing its original association as Old Ben's Theme and b) becoming damn near trivial (and thematically nebulous) due to its incessant use.

 

Does Wagner's Ring Cycle have a main theme?

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4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

That's an anthology. I was talking more about those film series which are more cyclical in nature.

No Bond is a correct answer. Star Wars and Jaws. Star Trek pretty much all have courage's theme especially Giacchinos scores where he uses to hide his poor ccontributions. JP. HP  The Hunger Games. 

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Judging by sales and the Live to Projection series I’d say that the general public isn’t too worried about what the singular theme is.

 

TBH I don’t know why anyone would be worried. 

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

What long-running, cyclical film series has one main theme binding all the entries, anyway?

 

Star Wars has the main title material but - looking at all eight entries - its not really used too extensively in the body of most of the scores in the series. You could say The Force Theme is the main theme, but that comes at the cost of it a) losing its original association as Old Ben's Theme and b) becoming damn near trivial (and thematically nebulous) due to its incessant use.

 

Does Wagner's Ring Cycle have a main theme?

 

Star Wars with the Force theme or Luke's theme. Harry Potter. Game of Thrones. Toy Story. Avengers. Gia's Star Trek. It isn't not an unusual idea. I think many series have a musical identity.

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And the main theme maintains its function as the main theme in every entry of each of these film series? I’m not sure. There are even Bond entries where that theme is scarcely heard.

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I am not saying it has to be heard per se.

 

I just mean ask a person reasonably interested in film music what's the avengers theme or Harry Potter theme or star wars theme or new Star trek theme or toy story theme. And you'd get the right answer.

 

Ask them what's the Lord of the rings theme and you will get confusion.

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@TheUlyssesian Williams' main themes are undoubtedly memorable, however, you could pull apart one of the LotR scores and find a handful of memorable themes that all have their significant values alongside the main theme.

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19 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I just mean ask a person reasonably interested in film music what's the avengers theme or Harry Potter theme or star wars theme or new Star trek theme or toy story theme. And you'd get the right answer.

What's the Toy Story theme? 'You've Got a Friend In Me'?

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