GAME OF THRONES

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

I quite like the poetic value of this motley crew and their mission. The resurrected going to meet the resurrected as adversaries.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

4 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

In the case of Gendry, as you said, it's of course possible he was brought back to be the wight used as proof for Cersei, but I doubt that. Him being the last of the Baratheons (even though a bastard, yes) is what makes me think he has another role to play in the story.

 

I was being facetious in "deducing" that Gendry is doomed for certain. I don't find it probable that he'll be the "wight exhibit" in the end (or, indeed, that any of the team will be). At the same time, I don't think that his character has some sort of inherent importance to the larger story that gives him plot armour for this expedition. His Baratheon heritage is something that's available for the writers to use if they want to, and to ignore if they don't; its significance is probably overrated.

 

The main reason for his reppearance now is surely because the writers wanted a large and diverse group of known characters for this mission. When they were initially planning the season, they probably went through a list of all remaining characters, ticking off the ones that they felt they could feasibly work into the Eastwatch storyliine!

 

Which reminds me, HBO still hasn't released a title for the upcoming episode, which I think is unprecedented (for Game of Thrones) so close to its broadcast.

 

I vote for Taking the Wight!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

 I don't find it probable that he'll be the "wight exhibit" in the end (or, indeed, that any of the team will be).

 

I'm not presuming that one of the team will be the wight to take south...but it would be a pretty cool twist.

 

3 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

I vote for Taking the Wight!

 

Wight Riot

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Snow, Wight, and the Huntsmen.

[Jay 37,339]

6 hours ago, Quintus said:

Huh? It wasn't shown of course, but I'm assuming the voyage from Dragonstone to Castle Black took them a good few days at least?

 

 

Dude, they didn't go to Castle Black; They went to Eastwatch!  It was in the opening credits and everything, it's the castle nearest to Hardhome, it's the place Tormund was sent off to episodes ago, it's the place Bran said the army was marching towards, it's the place nearest the arrowhead mountain The Hound saw them marching past in his vision, etc etc.  Eastwatch, NOT Castle Black!

 

 

And yea, when they arrived there, it would have been weeks after they left Dragonstone.  The next time we see Cersei, she'll be visibly pregnant most likely.  Time is passing on this show, they just don't have subtitles on the screen saying "2 weeks later" or some shit like that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Wight Makes Might

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

Dude, they didn't go to Castle Black; They went to Eastwatch!  It was in the opening credits and everything, it's the castle nearest to Hardhome, it's the place Tormund was sent off to episodes ago, it's the place Bran said the army was marching towards, it's the place nearest the arrowhead mountain The Hound saw them marching past in his vision, etc etc.  Eastwatch, NOT Castle Black!

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the correction, it's genuinely useful information to know for the future. But to me it's all just "The Wall" anyway.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

The Living Daywights

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

Good question

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

You (BloodBoal) answered that yourself at the time. It looked better, symbolically, to have them all appear north of the Wall and have to pass through at Castle Black!

 

Or, rather, you agreed with Quint's take on it.

 

On 6/9/2015 at 1:21 PM, BloodBoal said:

The most likely reason why they did that is, as Quintus said, it made for a nice imagery...

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

13 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

I did? I'm getting old. My memory ain't what it used to be...

 

Join the club.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

1 minute ago, BloodBoal said:

...is there a reason (maybe given in the books)? Are the waters near the Wall "unsailable" ? Do the spells that protect the Wall extend to the nearby sea? Just wondering.

 

Nah, it's more straightforward than that. It's a case of Benioff and Weiss condensing aspects of the book story, with the resulting parts not quite lining up (from a logical perspective). Here's the gist of how things go in the books, as far as I remember:

• After the defeat of Mance Rayder's attack, the wildling population that he has brought together breaks up somewhat. Some groups of them retreat to Hardhome, but many (most?), including a large faction led by Tormund, remain much closer to Castle Black.
• Jon negotiates with Tormund and allows the wildlings to pass through the tunnel at Castle Black (leading to the sort of scenario that was depicted in the show, but under different circumstances).
• Other emissaries from the Night's Watch have been sent up to Hardhome to treat with the wildlings who have gathered there. The last thing that has been heard from them is a distress message informing the Night's Watch that something terrible is happening there.

For obvious reasons, the showrunners wanted to depict the Hardhome incident onscreen, and to have Jon present at it. For the sake of streamlining, they simplified the scenario so that essentially all of the wildlings had retreated to Hardhome, incorporating the scene of the wildlings passing through the Wall. Evidently they preferred to retain the symbolic imagery of this event, even though it would have been averted in their version of the story.

 

Perhaps the ships were attacked by sea monsters, so everyone had to evacuate before they reached Eastwatch. (That would explain why the fleet was gone when we saw Eastwatch this week!)

[Jay 37,339]

5 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

Perhaps the ships were attacked by sea monsters, so everyone had to evacuate before they reached Eastwatch. (That would explain why the fleet was gone when we saw Eastwatch this week!)

 

Wait, does the world of this show (or, book I guess) literally contain sea monsters?

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

I wasn't serious about sea monsters being the explanation!

 

Nevertheless, there are dragons in that world, so it's not exactly incredible that the Greyjoys' "Kraken" sigil could be based on creatures that really existed...

[Jay 37,339]

I haven't read the books so I didn't know if monsters are a part of it or not

 

Anyways, good point about their boats not being seen when they arrived at Eastwatch

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

So!  The one aspect of this season I've struggled with is just what Littlefinger's plans up north are.  WELL, I just read this great post on reddit speculating what Littlefinger is up to, and I wanted to share it, its a good read!  There are no spoilers

 

Quote

Littlefinger wants Sansa and the Iron Throne; Jon is the roadblock in the way of both goals.

Littlefinger’s already told us what his basic strategy is; he lets his enemies destroy each other for him while he acquires more territory and an ever-larger army. Adding the North to his pile is his next step, and while he seems to be sitting around Winterfell twiddling his thumbs, he’s actually positioned exactly where he wants to be, with a fantastic excuse for staying out of the fiery bloodbath to the south.

While Littlefinger and his army are parked safely at Winterfell, his rivals are dropping like flies: the Martells and Tyrells are gone, half the Greyjoy fleet just sunk the other half, and Team Cersei and Team Daenerys are hacking away huge chunks of each other’s military might every time they clash.

In Littlefinger's plan, it doesn’t matter much whether it’s Cersei or Daenerys who wins; whichever one sits on the Iron Throne at the end will do so with heavy martial losses and a serious public relations problem. People hated Targaryens before one unleashed a Dothraki horde and burninated the countryside… and they hated Cersei before she blew up their religion and strutted around pregnant with her brother’s baby, thus proving the rumors true that Joffrey and Tommen were never legitimate kings.

And just imagine... into this mess rides the Queen in the North, trueborn supermodel daughter of the famously noble, recently vindicated Ned Stark, with the united armies (and food!) of the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands behind her, to be hailed as the liberator of the Seven Kingdoms. It would be sweet justice immortalized in a thousand songs.

But then Jon threw a wrench in this plan by not dying during the Battle of the Bastards... and another by being so impressive that no one in the North cared that Sansa outranked him... and yet another when he crowned himself King of the Cockblock.

But to Littlefinger, there’s something even worse and more dangerous about Jon: if Jon isn’t stopped soon, Jon is going to completely destroy Littlefinger's throne-taking army by marching it north to die fighting magical snow zombies.

So when Bran shows up, Littlefinger tries to turn him into an asset. Bran is physically weak and seems like he might have some mental problems to boot; at first glance, he seems like he might be as easy to manipulate as Sweetrobin. That could even be a sweet shortcut for Littlefinger; instead of having to painstakingly chip away at Sansa’s defenses, he could just get Bran to command Sansa to marry him.

So Littlefinger gives Bran a neat present, tries to ingratiate himself, and starts working the “Hey, y’know, YOU’RE the rightful Lord of Winterfell, not that bastard brother of yours” angle. If he can get Bran to challenge Jon, either outcome is a win; even if Jon stays in power, Jon will take a massive hit to his reputation and the loyalty of his Stark-sworn bannermen.

But instead, of course, Bran looks right through Littlefinger and tells him that “chaos is a ladder”. And while it’s plenty unsettling on the “I know about shit you said to Varys in private” level, it also implies that Bran knows exactly what Littlefinger is trying to do at Winterfell… create chaos so that he can climb the ladder.

And now Arya shows up. And Arya is a problem. Not just because Littlefinger recognizes that fighting style, but because any of the folks currently at Winterfell who spent time around the Stark kids before the war could have told him that Arya and Jon were best buddies. That’d be dangerous to have around even before you threw Arya’s currently unknown badass capabilities into the mix.

But if Littlefinger can set up a situation where Sansa and Arya are at odds with each other, it’s a huge win for him.

Right now, if Littlefinger tried to poison Sansa against Jon, Arya could talk some sense into her… but Arya will lose all her power to do that if Sansa no longer trusts her.

If Arya thinks Sansa is plotting against Jon, Arya will start undermining Sansa… and since Sansa is actually trying to help Jon, Arya will be making Jon’s situation worse. And once Sansa finds out what Arya’s done, they’ll be even madder at each other.

Moreover, when Jon returns, he’ll be asked to choose sides… either pissing off a terrifying little No One, or the woman half his army are more loyal to than him.

And maybe more importantly than any of that to Littlefinger, the situation would cause Sansa to feel utter despair. For years, Sansa has longed to go home, to escape backstabbing and intrigue and return to a place where she can truly feel safe, surrounded by love and honesty. If Sansa has finally gotten back to Winterfell, finally gotten back to the Starks, only to have the Bran-bot stare at a tree while Jon and Arya betray her... after everything Sansa's been through, that could be the thing that truly breaks her and sends her running into Littlefinger's arms.

So now Littlefinger’s doing what he was already planning to do… exploit Jon’s absence to sow doubt among Jon’s bannermen and try to flip their loyalty over to Sansa… but now he’s added a bonus: setting up Arya to believe that it was Sansa’s idea.

That scene we witnessed, with Littlefinger talking so earnestly to the young Karstark heir? I suspect he’s going to use her to frame Arya to Sansa just as he framed Sansa to Arya.

And then, please, PLEASE, let Littlefinger have underestimated one or all of them and die in some immensely satisfying, karmic retribution way.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6ttz2w/s7e5_theory_about_littlefingers_endgame/

 

What do you think?

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

That seems like a pretty good analysis!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

Nothing will be more satisfying than Littlefinger thinking he's managed to sow discord between the Stark siblings, only to have Bran/Sansa/Arya all team up and kick him out of Winterfell while somehow retaining his men.  Can that happen in 2 hours? We'll see!

 

 

BTW: The only thing bothering me about this season is that its still only snowing in the north.  I wish it was snowing in King's Landing by now!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

Nah, they just have to wait until the wintertime to film outdoor scenes!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

Maybe

[crumbs 14,306]

Arya can use other faces... Couldn't she try to get information out of him by pretending to be someone else?

[Jay 37,339]

I was wondering exactly that during the scenes with her and Baelish this week!

 

Like the siblings could tie him up, then Arya could impersonate him and command his troops to do whatever, right?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Like the siblings could tie him up, then Arya could impersonate him and command his troops to do whatever, right?

 

A person has to be dead for Arya to take their face.  No need to tie him up, just burn the body after taking the face.

[Jay 37,339]

11 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

A person has to be dead for Arya to take their face.

 

Is that true?  Was that laid out in the show itself, or is that something from the books?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well, she literally cuts their face off of their skull, right?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

I have no idea.  I don't remember anything like that, at least.  Her training storyline was kind of a weak point of last year so details have escaped me

[Wojo 2,453]

I have a new crazy theory. 

 

Jorah Mormont will not die. His recovery from the grayscale will make him immune to the white walkers. 

 

The solution will be to recruit the stonemen from the Valyrian ruins to fight north of the wall. 

[KK 3,307]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

Dude, they didn't go to Castle Black; They went to Eastwatch!  It was in the opening credits and everything, it's the castle nearest to Hardhome, it's the place Tormund was sent off to episodes ago, it's the place Bran said the army was marching towards, it's the place nearest the arrowhead mountain The Hound saw them marching past in his vision, etc etc.  Eastwatch, NOT Castle Black!

 

 

 

So, in the time that it took the Walkers to go from Hardhome to Eastwatch, Jon managed to trek to Castle Black, ride to and conquer Winterfell, rally the North and become their King, sail to Dragonstone (on the other side of Westeros), then sail back to the Wall?

[Jay 37,339]

4 minutes ago, KK said:

 

So, in the time that it took the Walkers to go from Hardhome to Eastwatch, Jon managed to trek to Castle Black, ride to and conquer Winterfell, rally the North and become their King, sail to Dragonstone (on the other side of Westeros), then sail back to the Wall?

 

No, that's not correct.  After Hardhome, the Night King and his cronies went north.  Remember the whole bit where they killed the Three Eyed Raven and Hodor lost his life, etc?

 

[KK 3,307]

Ah yes, forgot about that!

 

Still, much has happened since that attack too (Bran makes it to the Wall, then Winterfell, then he sends word to Jon, who then sails to the Wall). It's a miracle that they haven't taken the Wall by now!

[Jay 37,339]

Yea, apparently they move slower than a teenager carrying a crippled boy, since they all left the Raven's home at the same time and Bran's already been in Winterfell for however long

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

That's assuming that they want to get to the Wall as quickly as possible. But we don't know what their strategy is...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

They could be zigzagging down to incorporate remaining wildling packs into their army.

 

Also, the Night King could have sent half his army to somewhere else, say Castle Black, for a simultaneous attack of both that and Eastwatch.

The only problem with that, though, is that it seems unlikely Bran wouldn't find out about it.

[KK 3,307]

I'm really not sure the show writers are capable of designing plot mechanics any more complicated than having them all march toward a single destination with a single purpose in mind.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

What, I wonder, would be their objective in attacking Castle Black or Eastwatch? Why not go for, say, the Nightfort (or one of the other dozen abandoned castles)?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

the Knight King

 

*Night King

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but thought you'd want to know.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

27 minutes ago, KK said:

Still, much has happened since that attack too (Bran makes it to the Wall, then Winterfell, then he sends word to Jon, who then sails to the Wall). It's a miracle that they haven't taken the Wall by now!

 

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yea, apparently they move slower than a teenager carrying a crippled boy, since they all left the Raven's home at the same time and Bran's already been in Winterfell for however long

 

22 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

That's assuming that they want to get to the Wall as quickly as possible. But we don't know what their strategy is...

 

15 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

They're waiting for Cersei to kill Dany's dragons!

 

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

They could be zigzagging down to incorporate remaining wildling packs into their army.

 

 

Or it's just a plot hole.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

The White Walkers have been preparing for whatever they're up to for decades, and the building up of their Army of the Dead has been under way for years at least. They've never been a hasty crowd.