GAME OF THRONES

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Yeah, Saruman the Wight.

[Wojo 2,453]

DAMMIT. 

[Jay 37,346]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

My brother has a theory that the whole thing was a trap set by the Walkers to get a dragon, they're in the same place as Bran saw them in the raven fly-by. That would explain why the NK had a spear and brought all those chains eh?

 

Oi!

 

On 8/17/2017 at 5:55 PM, Jay said:

Now, you may say "the Night King knew that, he was purposely starving them out, as they are mortal, and he has unlimited time.  Plus, he knew Dany would come with dragons, and he wanted one", well, that is possible, but if that isn't mentioned next week, I'm going to assume that wasn't the writer's intention, and its just lazy storytelling!
 

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't care either way, so many things are becoming contrivances of having to condense the storytelling.

 

What was telling was that Cold Hands return was basically a cop out by the writers to save John at the last minute!

 

[Jay 37,346]

Yea, it was stupid.  If Jon simply flew away on Dany's dragon with everyone else, the episode would have been exactly the same, and still could have had their bedside scene, etc.

 

The detour to having him fall under the ice, magically survive ice cold water and not be seen emerging, saved at the last minute by Benjen, who for some reason sends him off on his horse instead of them both simply riding off on the horse, just to have a scene where Dany waits for him on that balcony, is just a waste of time for everyone involved.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

For several years now, I've been inclined towards the view that the White Walkers' whole operation is largely staged anyway, so when things turn out improbably well for the protagonists, it bolsters my suspicions!

 

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

What was telling was that Cold Hands return was basically a cop out by the writers to save John at the last minute!

 

You could see it the other way round, too: Jon's predicament was a cop out to provide an occasion for Benjen to show up!

[Arpy 4,145]

 

3 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

You could see it the other way round, too: Jon's predicament was a cop out to provide an occasion for Benjen to show up!

You see? It's great writing all along!
 

I was hoping after his escape from the ice, Jon would infiltrate the Walkers camp and learn more about them, but I guess there isn't time for that bullshit!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

What a dumb excuse to have him randomly pop again. I guess they just needed to squeeze in Martin's notes about Cold Hands somewhere.

 

Anyone else notice the Dany/Jon "love theme" in action mode?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Shame how the Benjen character saw his final denouncement then; I'd always thought he was an interesting character way back when he first participated, rather enigmatic in his way of speaking. I long had a feeling he'd have a further part to play after he vanished, but in the end it didn't live up to the potential for something much more satisfying.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Holko 9,519]

I know this would be a cop-out, but could they really kill him? He's half-wight or something anyway, maybe they just ganged up on him to stop him, then sent him to the group therapist Jerry for re-conditioning.

[KK 3,307]

2 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

While I noticed the theme since it first appeared in the previous episode, I can't say I noticed the action variant in this one. I thought the action music was typical bland Djawadi material. In these last episodes, it's just going to be one major wasted opportunity for great music after another. To think what more competent composers could have come up with for scenes such as this one....

 

It was there as Dany kept flying over the sight of Jon. Not that it was anything remotely remarkable. The battle scene music has generally been pretty awful.

 

Not that the video says anything particularly new, but the comparison shots between the Hobbit and Drogon are jarring. It's ridiculous how much more impressive GoT's dragons are:

 

[Bilbo 3,709]

I don't think they're more impressive than Smaug. They're cool but I was floored when I saw Smaug in the cinema. 

[crocodile 8,000]

Dodgy seat?

 

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

3 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Dodgy seat?

 

Karol

 

[KK 3,307]

Smaug was somewhat impressive in DoS, and only in the Bilbo scenes really. He was a goofy cartoon in BotFA.

 

Dany's dragons look far more impressive in battle, at least in this season.

[Holko 9,519]

3 minutes ago, KK said:

Smaug was somewhat impressive in DoS, and only in the Bilbo scenes really. He was a goofy cartoon in BotFA.

 

Dany's dragons look far more impressive in battle, at least in this season.

 

I think that's because of major script and character differences. Smaug needed to be a character and a fairly major villain, who can do conversation scenes believably. So his design went mostly that way in 2013, that's what he's strong at - big, expressive face, exaggerated movement adapted from Benedict's mocap - and that's what they were stuck with for the battle scene. Dany's dragons just needed to be pets, and now, giant killing machines. They've been developing them since 2010/11, they've had plenty of time to figure out the perfect biology and physics of it all, what works, what doesn't.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Holko 9,519]

12 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

no four-legged dragon! Why? They're the best looking dragons out there!

 

On illustrations, yes, but once you start animating them, it's virtually impossible to get right. It's complete nonsense biologically, there's no real life reference to use, you'd have to spend months of research and trial and error to make it look right, you'd have to basically rewrite biology.

 

This was not a problem in the Harryhausen Stop-Motion era (or the Golden Age) because those effects tried to convince you that wat you saw wasn't real, it's a nonexistant creature played by an expensive and incredibly well-animated toy. But modern CG tries go out of its way to convince you that everything you see on screen is real, so it has to be at least semirealistic.

[Jay 37,346]

2 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

On illustrations, yes, but once you start animating them, it's virtually impossible to get right. It's complete nonsense biologically, there's no real life reference to use, you'd have to spend months of research and trial and error to make it look right, you'd have to basically rewrite biology.

 

Huh. I never thought of it that way. 

[Quintus 5,399]

I've considered it, during the onslaught on Jamie Lannister. They've done a superb job of it actually, they move absolutely wonderfully, it's majestic.

[Incanus 5,714]

23 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I too prefer the GOT dragons over Smaug, even though they all made the same mistake: no four-legged dragon! Why? They're the best looking dragons out there!

There should be FOUR LEGS! FOUR!

 

[crocodile 8,000]

Maybe Smaug had a gangrene in between films 1 and 2?

 

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Speaking of Jackson's Middle-Earth, I bet his Battle of the Pelennor Fields is the working "epic" benchmark for this show's great final conflict. I imagine they want to directly eclipse the visual spectacle of it, and on TV to boot. It'd be a hell of a thing to do, regardless of the medium. It's also one of the reason's I didn't think Karol's more unorthodox preference for this story's climax ever stood a chance, but we'll see.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Holko 9,519]

The Walkers must have spent all this time looking for their big weapon: Wight-Were-Worms to chew through the Wall!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

2 minutes ago, Holko said:

The Walkers must have spent all this time looking for their big weapon: Wight-Were-Worms to chew through the Wall!

 

No. In typical Martin style, the baddies of his story bring the Deus ex machina (army of the dead) with them. Aragorn and co. would be fucked!

[Incanus 5,714]

37 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

No. In typical Martin style, the baddies of his story bring the Deus ex machina (army of the dead) with them. Aragorn and co. would be fucked!

 

Ugh don't remind me of that awful RotK moment. Green slime ghosts sweeping up Mordor armies and Legolas taking down the Mûmakil.

47 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Maybe Smaug had a gangrene in between films 1 and 2?

 

Karol

I think the gangrene was in PJ's brain.

[Quintus 5,399]

Why on earth Jacko chose Ghostbusters green for those guys I'll never know. It was always headscratching that one.

 

Legolas versus Mumakil was a great moment though!

[Holko 9,519]

I guess it's fine when they're in the caves, all the green light is really otherworldy, and it's consistent with the Dead Marshes, but yeah, they're just a horrible blob of mess at Pelennor.

 

PJ hated them, by the way, he thought they don't make sense and it's a bit cheap. Still, he made them win the pelennor, because it's more believable onscreen than 30 good fighters and 2 elves turning the tide of a battle between 100K and elephants vs. 10K.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

The Army of the Dead harkens back to the Angel of Death in The Ten Commandments. I think PJ was told to make the effect with the video game Battle for ME in mind. 

[crumbs 14,306]

The VFX team were really up against it finishing ROTK. It's understandable they took a few shortcuts in the last few weeks of post or they wouldn't have finished the film in time. Didn't they have heaps of problems rendering out all the huge battles because Peter kept adding shots to make the battle bigger?

 

The Army of the Dead probably suffered as a result of time constraints.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

Now that I'm back at work today, the hot topic of GOT conversation is

 

1) Why would they do a "death" under the water scene 3 times in 2 episodes!?

 

2) Where did the Walkers get those chains!?

 

3) Why are the writers forcing this Arya/Sansa conflict?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I still haven't been able to watch the episode.  I just keep marking this thread as read and trying not to read any posts.  I'll develop a weird eye twitch or something if things keep going like this.

[KK 3,307]

This AV Club review sums up pretty much everything that was wrong with this episode, and it doesn't even bring up the travel time thing really:

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/game-changing-thrones-spectacle-buckles-under-pres-259689

 

Because everything hinges so heavily on cause-and-effect in a narrative context, the character writing is taking a backseat, and only to service the plot. 

[Jay 37,346]

Thanks for the tip, I love AV Club reviews, but haven't checked out any of their reviews for this season yet, I'll have to rectify that

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

Now that I'm back at work today, the hot topic of GOT conversation is

 

1) Why would they do a "death" under the water scene 3 times in 2 episodes!?

 

2) Where did the Walkers get those chains!?

 

3) Why are the writers forcing this Arya/Sansa conflict?

 

 

Sloppy & lazy storytelling.

 

These clowns have the exact same issue Peter Jackson had with The Hobbit. Early respect for the source material yielded amazing results.  Which resulted in a kind of cockiness and delusion that you, not the original creator, are responsible for what people are responding to. The success allowed Benioff & Weiss, like Jackson, Boyens & Walsh before them, to tell the the stories they wanted to tell rather than the one the author wrote.

 

Granted, Benioff & Weiss are hamstrung by the fact that Martin's story is not complete. So to that extent GOT's jumping the shark is not their "fault." But they could certainly do a better job of sticking to the spirit of the source material. And the decision to end the series with so few episodes (presumably b/c they're getting bored with it and want to move on to this misguided civil war alternate history series) is a travesty. And it shows. 

 

And GOT has jumped the shark. That happened the second they came up with this idea to deliver a wight to Cersei. The show is still wildly entertaining, and even compelling, but it's nowhere near the show it used to be.

 

[KK 3,307]

1 minute ago, Nick1066 said:

And GOT has jumped the shark. That happened the second they came up with this idea to deliver a wight to Cersei. The show is still wildly entertaining, and even compelling, but it's nowhere near the show it used to be.

 

 

Agreed.

 

The Twitter/FB/Insta-verse will naturally disagree with you. But it is the truth.

[Jay 37,346]

I think the capturing of a wight should have been a side effect of a north of the wall mission, not the main goal.

 

I think it would have been better this season if Bran wasn't back in Winterfell yet; He was still north of the wall, on the run after Hodor died and the Night King killed the 3ER.  I think he should have gotten a message down to Castle Black or Winterfell (either by telepathy, or by attaching a note to an animal he wargs into and controls down to the wall), and via some means Jon decides to go north to rescue him with the same crew.  I think while there, they still have the scene where Jon kills a Walker with Longclaw and all the Wights die except on, and only at that time do they realize if they could show it to people in Westeros, it would help them understand the problem them are facing.

 

And then things can be fairly similar, except Bran, Meera, and Benjen are all involved with the lake battle and rescue by Dany, etc.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Tbh, the Ghostbusters green colouring of the AOD (an old Battle for Middle-Earth abbreviation) was really the only thing about their inclusion in the film adaptation which bothered me. The way they washed over the evil forces like a tide was pretty much how I expected it to be shown, especially considering the genre and the Hollywood factor.

[KK 3,307]

Really? I assumed the internet would eat this shit up.

 

It is massively entertaining, just frustrating as well.

[Quintus 5,399]

Btw, how were Sauron's forces actually defeated at the Pelennor in the book? I thought it was a combination of the Rohirrim and the AOD, no? I can't remember.

[Jay 37,346]

In the book, the Army of the Dead kills those pirates guys that were going to come fight in the battle, then go away.  PJ & Co had them both kill the pirate ship guys, AND then come and finish off the battle

[BloodBoal 7,538]