GAME OF THRONES

[Holko 9,499]

7 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Then, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, along with 30 (or so) Dunedains and Elrond's sons took the ships and arrived at the battle. That's it.

 

I just remembered he also collected all the Gondorian lazy bastards who didn't go with Imrahil to Minas Tirith, so it was a relatively significant force.

 

The fifth book is where it all falls apart for me.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Nope. The Army Of The Dead was only used to kill the pirates of Umbar (their oath was then considered fulfilled). Then, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, along with 30 (or so) Dunedains and Elrond's sons took the ships and arrived at the battle. That's it.

 

It's a pity they made the changes I suppose, but I can also see why they did. Back when Jacko and his women were condensers not extenders. Good times.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

It was a smart decision for a big Hollywood feature of that size. Wouldn't have been as satisfying in the context of PJ's spectacle to see about 50 men somehow help win the losing battle.

 

Most of PJ & crew's adaptations of the text had an intelligent narrative function with the LOTR films.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

My issue with the Army of the Dead in ROTK was their green glow and ethereal nature. I would have preferred they have a more physical, tangible presence. I understand that their appearance was due to budget, and more likely, time constraints in creating the effects.  The end results are disappointing nonetheless, and gives the battle a "fantasy" feel that Helm's Deep mercifully lacked.

 

Then again (and I know I speak sacrilege here), I think their presence at all is one of Tolkien's few missteps.

5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Yep.

 

Which makes their decisions on the Hobbit all the more baffling. I mean, we can blame some of it on the lack of proper pre-production, but that can't excuse everything.

 

Again, it's Jackson's cockiness, which actually began to rear its ugly head in ROTK. It's basically a variation of what happened to George Lucas as well.  Unlimited creative freedom + arrogance and no one to check your self-indulgence.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,291]

Agreed with all that

 

You could also argue it happened immediately with the Wachowskis, with the Matrix sequels being so poorly received compared to the original.  And if they were to do a revival now, it would be even worse!

Then again, in that case, I dunno if they were surrounded by yes men who enabled them, or if they were truly trying to make the followup they thought was best, and had the cache to do it with a full budget

[Quintus 5,399]

There was no need for the "to some extent" in brackets part when listing Lynch in that.

[Jay 37,291]

Hard to really say until the whole thing is over to fully judge

[KK 3,307]

I still think if you cut out a bunch of the middle episodes, you can salvage a pretty great 9 episode season out of it.

[Jay 37,291]

So will the Wight Dragon breath fire, or breath ice?

If it breathes fire, will that be how the Walkers get through the wall?

 

If it breathes ice, will it essentially be as effective of a soldier-killing sky sweeper as a normal dragon is (instantly killing those its breath lands on)... and also if so, I imagine next year will feature a sweet battle between one of Dany's remaining dragons and this one, that should be cool

[Wojo 2,453]

We'll find out tomorrow when HBO Spain screws up again. 

[crocodile 7,984]

3 minutes ago, KK said:

I still think if you cut out a bunch of the middle episodes, you can salvage a pretty great 9 episode season out of it.

Oh so only half of it is complete bullcrap then

 

Karol

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

2 minutes ago, Woj said:

We'll find out tomorrow when HBO Spain screws up again. 

 

Well let's hope that someone screws up!

[KK 3,307]

Yes, but the other half is generally pretty brilliant.

[Wojo 2,453]

It's common knowledge that Dany has three dragons, so word will spread quickly that one was killed. If one can, they all can. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. On one hand, it lends strength to John's story that the NK is very powerful. On the other hand, it shows Dany's weakness. 

 

Once the ice dragon makes its presence known, Dany could be undermined as being irresponsible for permitting this weapon to fall into the hands of the enemy. 

 

This is all a win-win for Cersei. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

The difference is whether a bunch of people cancel their HBO this week or next. It still won't take effect until the end of the month. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

I don't think the leaks make a damn bit of difference.  I don't think one less person watches because of the leaks.  If anything, it just creates more interest in the show.

[Jay 37,291]

OK, but what do you guys all think?  Will the wight dragon breath fire, or breath ice?

Don't reply if you read spoilers!

[Glóin the Dark 1,219]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

So will the Wight Dragon breath fire, or breath ice?

 

If it's the latter, will he be able to exhale an elevated frozen track that the Night King can whizz along, like that fellow "Ice Man" that used to be on TV before school each morning?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Some say the dragons will breathe fire, 
Some say ice. 
But for killing squires
I hold with those who favor fire. 
 

[Jay 37,291]

1 minute ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

If it's the latter, will he be able to exhale an elevated frozen track that the Night King can whizz along, like that fellow "Ice Man" that used to be on TV before school each morning?

 

Hahaha, that's awesome!

[Wojo 2,453]

I think it will breathe ice or frost breath. 

 

That completes the dichotomy of the titular Song of Ice and Fire. 

 

John is Ice, Dany is Fire. 

 

The White Walkers are Ice, the Dragons and their mother are Fire.

 

Now they have an Ice Dragon, it will be Ice to challenge its Fiery brothers. 

 

There are no spoilers to read yet because the books never got this far, though in the books John remembers Old Nan's tales of an ancient ice dragon from eons ago. It breathed what it breathed. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

While I'd love to see a proper ice dragon, I wonder what good is breathing ice for getting them past The Wall? What, an ice bridge?

[crumbs 14,302]

I'm having terrible flashbacks to the ice beam gun in Batman and Robin, yet I think that's the direction they'll take. Possibly an ice beam that instantly turns people into wights? 

 

Perhaps it breathes fire but it's blue in colour and it will be more devastating than standard fire. Is that how they bring down the wall?

 

One thing I will say: the more we've seen of the White Walkers, the less scary they've become. When you think back to the series opener, they were utterly terrifying. Just goes to show that when you take the mystery away from something, it loses much of its intrigue.

[Wojo 2,453]

The ice bridge would only work for walking out over the sea to go around the Wall, or to go up over. 

 

No, this article is either full of speculation or spoilers, and I must admit I should reverse my lengthy diatribe above. A reanimated fire breathing dragon does not instantly develop the internal anatomy required to make ice. It's still a fire breathing dragon. 

 

https://www.bustle.com/p/why-viserion-isnt-actually-ice-dragon-on-game-of-thrones-78016

 

A true ice dragon has yet to be seen or mentioned on the show. 

54 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Perhaps it breathes fire but it's blue in colour and it will be more devastating than standard fire. Is that how they bring down the wall?

 

Blue is always used in media to show things that are cold, yet blue flamed are hotter than orange. And I could see the show using blue flame to distinguish from orange when the camera is so close that the dragon is offscreen. 

 

Like how X-Wings and TIE Fighters probably use the same technology for laser beams, while good is orange and bad is green. So we know who's shooting. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

58 minutes ago, crumbs said:

One thing I will say: the more we've seen of the White Walkers, the less scary they've become. When you think back to the series opener, they were utterly terrifying. Just goes to show that when you take the mystery away from something, it loses much of its intrigue.

 

This.  How terrifying was that opening prologue in the first episode? The white walkers always worked because they tapped into a kind of primordial mystery and terror about far north, frozen places. Now we've just seen too much of them and the just don't seem so scary. The whole point of GOT, I thought, was about the people playing the game of thrones. The point of The Wall was telling the story of the people manning the wall.  That's certainly where the books are at.

 

That said, it's a tough call creatively. How can you hint about the white walkers for years and then NOT feature them? The answer is, you can't. But I think you can use them more effectively than has been done.  They're basically popsicle walkers...the frozen walking dead...and people are just desensitized to that by now.  

58 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Perhaps it breathes fire but it's blue in colour and it will be more devastating than standard fire. Is that how they bring down the wall?

 

No matter what they do, I think it's clear that dragon is going to be instrumental in getting the wights past the wall.

 

Which begs the question...what was the Night King's plan B if he didn't happen to stumble upon a dragon that he could turn undead in the far north?

[crumbs 14,302]

Surely a battle between the dragons is inevitable next season, so yeah, it makes sense they'd use different coloured flame to distinguish between the dragons. Blue flame also looks incredibly cool and would be a fun way to destroy the Wall (though the Night King could just fly over it now, if he wanted -- can he survive outside the North before Winter spreads south?)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crumbs 14,302]

18 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

That said, it's a tough call creatively. How can you hint about the white walkers for years and then NOT feature them? The answer is, you can't. But I think you can use them more effectively than has been done.  They're basically popsicle walkers...the frozen walking dead...and people are just desensitized to that by now.  

 

Bingo. Compare the terrifying buildup and atmosphere of the Walkers arriving in Hardhome to this episode, where they just stumble upon a party of wights led by a White Walker in broad daylight. Not particularly scary! And killing them now seems as easy as knocking over an ice statue.

 

Contrast that with the creepy snowstorm reveal of the four horsemen atop the cliff watching the battle at Hardhome. And the Night King being a badass by resurrecting all the dead wildlings. In this episode they seemingly stood around for days doing nothing -- it was neither atmospheric nor suspenseful. Frankly I found Alan Taylor's direction fairly mediocre here.

 

You can reveal more about their species and still maintain the atmosphere when showing them. I vividly remember that excellent epilogue with the Night King taking the infant far north to convert him, at some kind of supernatural White Walker kingdom. We've never seen that location again but I always figured we'd go further north and discover their civilisation.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Hard to really say until the whole thing is over to fully judge

 

I was saying that up until about three episodes ago, but now, even if the final three hours are masterful genius, I can no longer reconcile with the 6 or so hours of boring flotsam which have for me badly hampered the overall sweep of the experience. I wouldn't give Vince Gilligan or Matthew Weiner a pass if they committed the same narrative, pacing and structural sins with their own work, so I don't see why I should treat Lynch or whoever else any differently. To me, doing so would be like an alternative reality wherein Nic Pizzolatto's second season of True Detective, problems intact, was still universally praised by everyone and their dog, just because, you know, it's Nic Pizzolatto - the man behind the brilliant first series. His work is beyond reproach! Yeah, it doesn't work like that. For me, Twin Peaks season 3 is a very uneven creation and even near to a mess in places. Same as plenty of other shows which have their own ardent fans.

 

But I digress, this is the Game of Thrones thread...

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Agree Hardhome was amazing, and pretty f*cking terrifying.

 

But as for this recent episode, I found the undead bear to scarier than the entire wight army they fought.

[Quintus 5,399]

51 minutes ago, crumbs said:

One thing I will say: the more we've seen of the White Walkers, the less scary they've become. When you think back to the series opener, they were utterly terrifying. Just goes to show that when you take the mystery away from something, it loses much of its intrigue.

 

I meant to make a post about their original reveal in the show the other day, and the way it was shot and directed. That fleeting glimpse of a very different White Walker was so supremely evocative to me, it was just pure seduction, and scary with it.

 

I miss that design, I think it was better than the one they eventually adjusted it to and settled on. There was something more uncanny and primal about that first White Walker, as opposed to the still quite cool but much more relatable redo. Whom just look like pale soldiers with normal facial proportions and their own problems. 

[Jay 37,291]

My first thought when they resurrected it was that it would be an ice-breathing dragon, which fits into the whole aesthetic of the white walkers and their wights, including the wight bear, etc.

 

But then I thought well, surely the dragon will have something to do with the wall coming down, and I would think it breathing fire on the wall to melt it makes more sense than it breathing ice on the wall to... erm, I dunno what.

You guys bring up an interesting idea that it could be blue flames but they're still hot.  I hadn't thought of that.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

You guys bring up an interesting idea that it could be blue flames but they're still hot.  I hadn't thought of that.

 

I think it will probably be something like that. They're going to have to do something (beyond the blue eyes) to distinguish it from Dany's dragons.

[Quintus 5,399]

You guys have zero imagination and are crap at thinking outside of the box; it's obviously going to shoot lasers out of its eyes.

[Glóin the Dark 1,219]

If one of the other two dragons would drink a vat of wildfire, we could have a very colourful final battle.

[Jay 37,291]

So are we anticipating the wall coming down, or at least being breached, as the final shot of this season, or something they're saving for next year?

And is it FINALLY going to snow in King's Landing this week?

[crocodile 7,984]

The walking dead are clearly not in any rush to get to that wall. 

 

Karol

[Glóin the Dark 1,219]

I thought there was about a 50% chance of both of those things happening in the final episode of Season 6. I'd say there's about a 90% chance of both of them happening in the final episode of Season 7...

[Jay 37,291]

1 minute ago, crocodile said:

The walking dead are clearly not in any rush to get to that wall. 

 

Karol

 

But did obtaining a dragon accelerate their plans?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

So are we anticipating the wall coming down, or at least being breached, as the final shot of this season, or something they're saving for next year?

And is it FINALLY going to snow in King's Landing this week?

 

My prediction is that the little meet & greet at Kings Landing is going to get all busted up by Ice Viserion and on his back is...well, I guess it wouldn't be a white walker because he's not walking anymore.

Wait...so the Night King is now a ...White Rider!? Gandalf is rolling over in Valinor.

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

6 minutes ago, crocodile said:

The walking dead are clearly not in any rush to get to that wall. 

 

 

As of this season, you don't have to be in a rush to arrive anywhere anytime you like.

[crocodile 7,984]

Do you think we'll get to see some familiar deceased in the final season?

 

Karol

[Jay 37,291]

14 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Do you think we'll get to see some familiar deceased in the final season?

 

Karol

 

What do you mean, like Benjen and Thoros?  Hodor?  Craster, Sr Mormont, Jojen? Craster wives?

[crocodile 7,984]

Yeah. Some characters brought to life.

 

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Ghosts of the Night's Watch, like Force ghosts?