GAME OF THRONES

[Jay 37,249]

Wojo, you beat me to it!  I just got done editing my post to include that since I forgot it the first time around

 

This is what I added to the above

 

 

 

Since at this point Robert had decreed all Targaryens must be killed, Ned knew Robert would never let Lyanna's son live, so he took him home to Winterfell and pretended it was his own son, a result of a tryst during the war, and never told anyone the truth - not even his wife Catelyn, who would grow to hate Jon Snow ruthlessly (in the books more-so than the show).  Though, Ned did promise to finally tell Jon the truth the next time they saw each other when they parted ways when he was summoned to King's Landing to be Robert's Hand (after Jon Arryn was poisoned after he figured out Cersei's kids were really Jaime's and not Robert's) back in season 1, but he of course died before he could tell him (or anyone else).  

 

So currently Bran knows one half of the story (Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark) and Sam/Gilly know the other half (Lyanna Stark was legally wed to Prince Rhaegar Targaryen at the time) -- if they can put 2 and 2 together that is.

[Wojo 2,453]

Ned was disgusted by the murder of Rheagar's other young children, but of course he could not communicate that to Robert. The best he could do was protect Jon. 

 

They're going to have to think of something fast. Lannisters are blonde, making Joffrey and his siblings obvious, but Jon has the hair color of his mother, which is the same as Ned. 

[Quintus 5,399]

Okay I got all that, but who's dad is the Night King? 

[Jay 37,249]

His only "children" are the wights he raises from the dead, and the babies Craster gave him that he touched their foreheads to turn into Walkers.

[Wojo 2,453]

As far as we know so far. 

[Jay 37,249]

I have a feeling that ultimately, the final season explanation of what The Night King is (beyond a weapon created by the Children of the Forest that backfired) and what his goals and motivations are, will be underwhelming...

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

This basically was the final spark to convince Robert, Ned, Tywin (The Mad King's Hand) and Jaime (the Mad King's Kingsguard) to overthrow him.

 

I thought Jamie never actually joined the rebellion, and just decided to kill the Mad King when Aerys ordered King's Landing to be burned to the ground? Wasn't it more of a spontaneous decision? I think Robert & Co. were already in the process of sacking King's Landing when Jamie became the Kingslayer.

 

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

I have a feeling that ultimately, the final season explanation of what The Night King is (beyond a weapon created by the Children of the Forest that backfired) and what his goals and motivations are, will be underwhelming...

 

The current fan theory is that Bran is the Night King.

[Wojo 2,453]

They'll probably turn the situation on its head with something stupid. Imagine that the White Walkers built The Wall to keep Men out of the frozen wastes of the north, the sanctuary of the White Walkers, but it got perverted over the centuries. We have only ever seen the White Walkers killing and reanimating people north of The Wall, where they were just defending their homeland against hostile trespassers. 

 

I believe that Tywin Lannister stayed out of Robert's Rebellion until he had a clear picture that Robert would win. When this happened, Aerys ordered Jaime to kill his Hand. Given the choice between killing his King and his father, Jaime became the Kingslayer. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

Spoiler

 

[mstrox 6,637]

Littlefinger is the Night King.

[Jay 37,249]

11 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I thought Jamie never actually joined the rebellion, and just decided to kill the Mad King when Aerys ordered King's Landing to be burned to the ground? Wasn't it more of a spontaneous decision? I think Robert & Co. were already in the process of sacking King's Landing when Jamie became the Kingslayer.

 

Eh whatever, I was trying to summarize a large detailed story in a few paragraphs, ya know?

 

11 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

The current fan theory is that Bran is the Night King.

I hate time travel in stories like these.  Almost ruined Harry Potter, too

 

6 minutes ago, Woj said:

They'll probably turn the situation on its head with something stupid. Imagine that the White Walkers built The Wall to keep Men out of the frozen wastes of the north, the sanctuary of the White Walkers, but it got perverted over the centuries. We have only ever seen the White Walkers killing and reanimating people north of The Wall, where they were just defending their homeland against hostile trespassers. 

 

Well, the wights that made it south of the wall attacked men in Castle Black

 

6 minutes ago, Woj said:

I believe that Tywin Lannister stayed out of Robert's Rebellion until he had a clear picture that Robert would win. When this happened, Aerys ordered Jaime to kill his Hand. Given the choice between killing his King and his father, Jaime became the Kingslayer. 

 

Yea, something like that, I was trying to condense a large detailed story down, and all, especially since the focus was suppose to be on how Dany and Jon are related

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

I hate time travel in stories like these.  Almost ruined Harry Potter, too

 

 

Timey wimey weirdness has provided what I think is still the most thrilling sequence of the past few seasons (the "Hold the Door" sequence).

[Jay 37,249]

18 hours ago, Jay said:

The Dragon and the Wolf... Dany and Jon?

 

18 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Or Rhaegar and Lyanna!

 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

I actually thought the "time travel" with the Hodor thing was handled remarkably well.  Which makes sense given it was Martin's idea and not Weiss & Beinoffs.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I actually thought the "time travel" with the Hodor thing was handled remarkably well.  Which makes sense given it was Martin's idea and not Weiss & Beinoffs.

 

 

 

This is true.  I don't trust the Davids to use the timey wimey stuff wisely or with any nuance.

[Jay 37,249]

I doubt Benioff and Weiss would make Bran be a time traveling Night King unless Martin was planning on doing it too

[Jay 37,249]

And here's the making of featurette for the week

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

...a weapon created by the Children of the Forest that backfired...

 

There's been no suggestion (in-story) that it backfired.

[Wojo 2,453]

2 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

There's been no suggestion (in-story) that it backfired.

 

Really? We see the Children of the Forest create it, and recently, it's attacked them. 

[Jay 37,249]

Exactly

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I was referring to the events of the original Long Night.

 

As far as the recent events go, true enough, it appears on the surface as though the White Walkers and the Children of the Forest were at cross-purposes!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

I was referring to the events of the original Long Night.

 

As far as the recent events go, true enough, it appears on the surface as though the White Walkers and the Children of the Forest were at cross-purposes!

 

I thought the Children created the White Walkers but then they had to ally with humans to beat back their own creations.

[Jay 37,249]

Exactly!

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I thought the Children created the White Walkers but then they had to ally with humans to beat back their own creations.

 

We know that the Children created the White Walkers, of course, but it's never been established that they somehow behaved differently than intended.

 

The humans in Westeros have no idea that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. They don't believe that the White Walkers were a weapon. They believe that they were a separate, independent race of creatures that were intent on wiping them out, until the humans managed to seek out and reconcile with the Children, who then helped them defeat the White Walkers (thereby saving mankind). Because that's exactly what they were supposed to think!

 

(Just as they're supposed to think now, once again...)

[Disco Stu 15,495]

My assumption has been that the Children created the White Walkers to wipe out humans but that the White Walkers didn't discriminate between humans and Children so they had to ally with the enemy they had intended to defeat.

 

But I guess that was never spelled out exactly, yeah.

[Jay 37,249]

7 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

We know that the Children created the White Walkers, of course, but it's never been established that they somehow behaved differently than intended.

 

The humans in Westeros have no idea that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. They don't believe that the White Walkers were a weapon. They believe that they were a separate, independent race of creatures that were intent on wiping them out, until the humans managed to seek out and reconcile with the Children, who then helped them defeat the White Walkers (thereby saving mankind). Because that's exactly what they were supposed to think!

 

(Just as they're supposed to think now, once again...)

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, then.  What are you not saying?  If the White Walkers are acting as the Children intended, then what is the Children's ultimate plan?  Simply to fool the humans into thinking they won for 800 years until ultimately being defeated by them when they grew in numbers?

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

My assumption has been that the Children created the White Walkers to wipe out humans but that the White Walkers didn't discriminate between humans and Children so they had to ally with the enemy they had intended to defeat.

 

Yeah, I guess that's what we're supposed to assume, but it doesn't quite ring true for me. Apart from the fact that none of the human stories have any mention of the Children being responsible for the White Walkers, there's also the fact that the one myth that does incorporate the two races says that the "Last Hero" set out into the dead lands to find the Children and seek their help...which then apparently worked.

 

Most of all though, that interpretation fails the most important test: it's not compatible with Martin's mantra "We don't need any more Dark Lords"!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, Glóin the Dark said:

"We don't need any more Dark Lords"!

 

But that's exactly what the Night King is!  At least in the show, I'm not a book reader.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, then.  What are you not saying?  If the White Walkers are acting as the Children intended, then what is the Children's ultimate plan?  Simply to fool the humans into thinking they won for 800 years until ultimately being defeated by them when they grew in numbers?

 

To fool them, yes, though not simply into thinking that they'd won.

 

The Children and the Men had been in a state of perpetual war for, apparently, thousands of years because of their incompatible ways of life and the lack of restraint on the side of the humans. My hypothesis is that the Children, as a last resort, gathered all of their powers to create the appearance of a greater enemy, something that would frighten the bejeezus out of the Men, necessitate (in their minds) an alliance with the Children, and give them a genuine, lasting incentive to stick to the terms of that alliance long after the immediate conflict had ended.

 

That's why the human myths don't say "So there were these White Walkers created by the Children of the Forest..."

 

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

But that's exactly what the Night King is!  At least in the show, I'm not a book reader.

 

I know! That's why I don't buy the popular interpretation of what he's up to. It goes against Martin's well-known attitude to fantasy stories.

 

Everyone in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" connoisseur community knows this quote of Martin's, and yet almost everyone explains it away in some manner, as though he didn't mean it to apply to the White Walkers!

[Jay 37,249]

6 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

The Children and the Men had been in a state of perpetual war for, apparently, thousands of years because of their incompatible ways of life and the lack of restraint on the side of the humans. My hypothesis is that the Children, as a last resort, gathered all of their powers to create the appearance of a greater enemy, something that would frighten the bejeezus out of the Men, necessitate (in their minds) an alliance with the Children, and give them a genuine, lasting incentive to stick to the terms of that alliance long after the immediate conflict had ended.

 

OK, but how have the men been sticking to the terms of their alliance with the Children since the end of the Long Night?  And also, how does this tie into the Walkers marching south now in the endgame of the whole tale?

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

33 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 If the White Walkers are acting as the Children intended, then what is the Children's ultimate plan?  Simply to fool the humans into thinking they won for 800 years until ultimately being defeated by them when they grew in numbers?

 

 

35 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

But that's exactly what the Night King is!  At least in the show, I'm not a book reader.

 

He is essentially a Dark Lord, and that's part of why the show has gone of the rails. It's pretty much just a typical fantasy show now, with typical fantasy tropes.

 

More than anything, this season is REALLY making me want to go back and watch the first four.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

OK, but how have the men been sticking to the terms of their alliance with the Children since the end of the Long Night?

 

They probably haven't (we don't know exactly what the terms of that alliance would have been). But the Long Night was a very long time ago. There could well have been a period of millennia, in its aftermath, when the Men remembered it well enough and stuck to their side of whatever bargain was struck. In the era of the story, of course, the Long Night is largely forgotten by much of Westeros, and no longer thought of as cause for concern even in the North.

 

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

 And also, how does this tie into the Walkers marching south now in the endgame of the whole tale?

 

It doesn't, except in that they're using the same basic tactic again.

 

The Children of the Forest are on their way out. There are hardly any of them left, and they seem to be resigned to extinction in the not-too-distant future (from their perspective), with Men being the inheritors of their homeland. But the world that Men have created is itself one of perpetual warfare, destruction and suffering. The feudal power structure is never robustly stable. Before they bow out once and for all, the Children are harnessing their old magics for one last push, and using the same deceptive ploy that worked for them in the original Long Night: creating a terrible, greater enemy that will force the humans into a state of cooperation - not, this time, with the Children of the Forest, but with themselves.

 

There are lots of forms that this state of cooperation should take (after the conflict), but it would likely be some combination of principles that emerged in Europe as its nations gradually transitioned from feudal times into the Enlightenment era - separation of powers, constitutions, regional representation, a greater voice for the common folk, less emphasis on hereditary power, etc. In general, a state of organisation and government designed to make the whole thing less vulnerable to conflict and collapse.

[Jay 37,249]

So the ultimate endgame of the show / books is a lesson in man becoming a better species?

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

So the ultimate endgame of the show / books is a lesson in man becoming a better species?

 

Yeah...or, at least, a better organised one. I'd put money on that.

 

There has to be jeopardy, obviously. It has to be possible for them to fail. I imagine "Improve or die!" will be the choice they're presented with.

 

There's a quote from George R. R. Martin which I think is one of the best keys to understanding what his work is about. On his attitude to writing fantasy, he said "You treat it like history, but you make everything bigger". This includes making things literally bigger in their physical dimensions (like the Wall, etc.) but more generally exaggerating and sensationalising things, making them more colourful and emphatic.

 

The history that he's dealing with in A Song of Ice and Fire is well-known to have been inspired by the Wars of the Roses, and then to have expanded in conception to incorporate elements of world history from many places and eras. But it's mostly focused on ideas relating to mediaeval Europe and its power structures. And what happened in mediaeval Europe in the long run? [Spoiler alert!] The feudal systems died out, and the types of government that replaced them have their own problems but are generally thought to be something of an improvement.

 

Take that basic outline, make everything "bigger", throw in some ice and fire, and there you have it...

[Jay 37,249]

Sounds right to me!

 

But will Benioff and Weiss pull that off as elegantly as Martin will (or, as well as the Martin who wrote the original trilogy in a timely manner before he got rich could have?)

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I'm going to guess "No" for that one. 

 

But I still have reasonable hope that it's not going to turn out to be the standard zombie story that most people already assume it is.

[Jay 37,249]

Eh, the story you've outlined is pretty standard too though, its basically the plot of Watchmen

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I'm not saying that it would be unique in that respect (though I've never seen or read Watchmen, and can't think of another example of that type of story, at least off the top of my head). I meant, specifically, that it would not be a "standard zombie story".

 

How standard or original the story would be (either in the books or the TV show) would, I suppose, be dependent on a more detailed outline than the basic ideas I suggested... 

[Jay 37,249]

Agreed!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

26 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

What I don't understand in Gloin's logic is that he keeps on saying the Night King isn't "your typical Dark Lord"...

 

You mean I keep quoting George R. R. Martin's statement to that effect?! I haven't proved this with any in-story arguments because I take it as an axiom, coming, as it does, straight from the horse's mouth!

 

33 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

But in order for that to work, they had to have the White Walkers want to kill humans, no?

 

Not necessarily. And especially not if they have the sort of control over the White Walkers' desires that your wording implies!

 

It's important to bear in mind that we don't really know what the White Walkers are, except that they are transformed humans - bodily, at least.

 

For instance, one theory - totally speculative but not too far-fetched in the given context - is that they are simply avatars, controlled using warging powers by the Children or other human wargs working with them like Bran. That's one scenario in which your objection is answered, and doubtless there are others. None of these scenarios needs to be proved true for my argument to hold up; they just need to exist as possibilities, meaning that Martin's Axiom can't be dismissed as an impossibility, which in turn means that I think we must accept it...

[Jay 37,249]

Exactly, BB! Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't figure out how to say. 

 

We know the Children created the first White Walker as a "weapon" to fight man. There's two ways to look at what this means:

 

A) The straightforward way: the Children wanted the Walkers to kill mankind. 

 

B) The nuanced way: The Children wanted to create a "bigger enemy" for man to team up with them to fight, and maybe come to better understanding with each other in the process. 

 

If A, the plan backfired: the Walkers did not kill all men, and became a threat to the Children as well, forcing them to team up with man to force them north and build the wall to block them.  And now, 8,000 years later, the walkers still kill Children as well as man. 

 

If B, the plan either backfired, or didn't, we can't know yet. The first part worked: Man teamed up with the Children and pushed back the Walkers. But man and the Children didn't seem to really come to an understanding with each other, and the Walkers seem to be a genuine threat to the remaining Children (doesn't seem staged to me) as well as man. But was the Children's plan to see how man would govern itself for 8,000 years before returning for final judgment, or was blocking the Walkers instead of killing them a stop-gap and they still haven't come up with a way to kill them, and are just as screwed as man if they can't stop them? Actually, aren't all the Children dead now anyway? Didn't the last if them die when the Night King invaded the 3ER's hut and Hodor died? 

 

I wonder if any of this will even be touched on in the season finale, or if it's questions B&W would rather wait until the final year to have to tackle... 

2 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

For instance, one theory - totally speculative but not too far-fetched in the given context - is that they are simply avatars, controlled using warging powers by the Children or other human wargs working with them like Bran. That's one scenario in which your objection is answered, and doubtless there are others. None of these scenarios needs to be proved true for my argument to hold up; they just need to exist as possibilities, meaning that Martin's Axiom can't be dismissed as an impossibility, which in turn means that I think we must accept it...

 

That would be interesting, but I can't see how it ultimately makes sense. We saw the Night King take a Craster baby and touch its forehead and turn it into a walker. The Walkers surely have their own culture and they grow from baby to adult, etc. 

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

56 minutes ago, Jay said:

If A, the plan backfired: the Walkers did not kill all men, and became a threat to the Children as well, forcing them to team up with man to force them north and build the wall to block them.  And now, 8,000 years later, the walkers still kill Children as well as man. 

 

Not only that; the White Walkers have been completely out of the picture for most of the intervening millennia, even north of the Wall. Reports of their reappearance are a fairly recent development, so it wasn't just the Wall holding them back. I'm not saying this is inexplicable in scenario A, but it is odd, while not an issue at all in scenario B.

 

In fact, there isn't any indication that any of the White Walkers in the present day story are the same ones that were around during the Long Night, or that there were any intermediate ones. (I don't read much into the fact that, in the show, the actor who plays the Night King also played the man that the Children turned into a Walker. In the books, there isn't even a Night King - as yet, anyway.) The only known source of modern White Walkers is Craster's sons; it's entirely possible - even probable - that they make up the entire existing population.

 

In my interpretation, the conspiring Children (which I mean as a shorthand for the group that Bran has interacted with, along with the Three-Eyed Raven and any other collaborators they may have) somehow communicated to Craster that it would be very much in his interests to hand over his male children, and used them to create a new batch of White Walkers from scratch. The old models are probably long gone... 

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

The first part worked: Man teamed up with the Children and pushed back the Walkers. But man and the Children didn't seem to really come to an understanding with each other... 

 

I'm not so sure. Relations between the Children and the First Men might have remained good. It was supposedly thousands of years after the Long Night that the Andal migration began, the second big wave which brought with it big cultural changes, with the Faith of the Seven displacing the worship of the Old Gods, etc.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Actually, aren't all the Children dead now anyway? Didn't the last if them die when the Night King invaded the 3ER's hut and Hodor died? 

 

I don't think that it was ever stated that they were literally the last, though it might have been the intention.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

The Walkers surely have their own culture and they grow from baby to adult, etc. 

 

"History, certainly, but I don’t know about culture...I don’t know if they have a culture" is what George R. R. Martin said when asked whether we'll ever learn more about the White Walkers' history and culture. 

[Jay 37,249]

7 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

the White Walkers have been completely out of the picture for most of the intervening millennia, even north of the Wall. Reports of their reappearance are a fairly recent development, so it wasn't just the Wall holding them back. 

 

Aha! I either hadn't realized, or had forgotten, that. 

 

Quote

In fact, there isn't any indication that any of the White Walkers in the present day story are the same ones that were around during the Long Night, or that there were any intermediate ones. (I don't read much into the fact that, in the show, the actor who plays the Night King also played the man that the Children turned into a Walker. In the books, there isn't even a Night King - as yet, anyway.) The only known source of modern White Walkers is Craster's sons; it's entirely possible - even probable - that they make up the entire existing population.

 

In my interpretation, the conspiring Children (which I mean as a shorthand for the group that Bran has interacted with, along with the Three-Eyed Raven and any other collaborators they may have) somehow communicated to Craster that it would be very much in his interests to hand over his male children, and used them to create a new batch of White Walkers from scratch. The old models are probably long gone... 

 

Fascinating. I hadn't thought of that possibility. Sadly, I think using the same actor is actually a big sign they're supposed to be the same. 

 

 

Quote

I'm not so sure. Relations between the Children and the First Men might have remained good. It was supposedly thousands of years after the Long Night that the Andal migration began, the second big wave which brought with it big cultural changes, with the Faith of the Seven displacing the worship of the Old Gods, etc.

 

Good point! 

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

Sadly, I think using the same actor is actually a big sign they're supposed to be the same. 

 

Yeah, I think you're right that they're implying it's the same person. In saying that I don't read much into it, I mean I think they did it for "TV reasons" (just like having his involuntary heart surgery be carried out by the very same Child of the Forest that Bran knows) rather than anything to do with plot details. I guess it means they had enough of a fondness for their original that they kept him around (perhaps in the fridge?) while he was out of action. He's their Dolores!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

So in the end, do you think you guys will have spent more time speculating and theorising over what might happen next than you have actually watching it?

[Bilbo 3,709]

9 minutes ago, Quintus said:

So in the end, do you think you guys will have spent more time speculating and theorising over what might happen next than you have actually watching it?

 

I think a lot of the speculating comes from a misguided idea that Martin has any idea what he's doing/going to happen. 

 

The end is going to be cliched fantasy and the books will never end because Martin can't be arsed/won't be able to work out how to untie himself from pointless plot lines/won't be able to do something "better" than the show. 

 

I wouldnt be surprised if he henuinely hadnt a clue how the series ends yet and that's why the showrunners had to make so much stuff up. 

[KK 3,307]

You really don't like Martin eh?

 

14 minutes ago, Quintus said:

So in the end, do you think you guys will have spent more time speculating and theorising over what might happen next than you have actually watching it?

 

I don't give enough of a crap about the showrunner's version of the narrative to really speculate about plot details.

 

But what'd you expect? It's big budget fantasy. Of course members of an online forum are going to waste hours away with speculation posts. Just like they do with Star Wars, LOTR, etc.