GAME OF THRONES

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yeah "subverting expectations" is one thing - lengthy plots with inadequate payoffs and bafflingly inconsistent characterizations/arcs are another.  

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

My problem is that after all this time building up arguably the greatest threat to human existence, everything was completely nixed in one episode.  I actually liked seeing how Arya defeated the Night King, it was reminiscent of the destruction of the One Ring in Return of the King - I just wished they had drawn this out further to the very end and made it feel like it was the climax of an epic struggle. 

 

I don't have a problem or disagree with anyone that Cersei is a real threat, but couldn't you have the two threats simultaneously, both working in tandem to draw the noose tighter from both ends. I had visions of the Walkers defeating the defense at Winterfell and heading further south to meet the battle at Kings Landing. Cersei's stubbornness would play to the strengths of having the white walkers encroach on all of Westeros. Then at the end Cersei would see the storm coming and still hold onto the throne. 

 

What threat is greater than a supernatural army of the dead who want to destroy all life and replace it with a world of winter and darkness? How do you go back to Cersei and her throne? So much of what I liked about the threat of the White Walkers was that it was one that people didn't believe until it was too late, and it was a long, bloody effort to unite most of the North, with friendships and unions between disparate houses. 

 

 

 

So you're judging the episode on what you thought they should have done, rather than on what you were watching?

I'm actually glad they (seem) to have killed the NK and his army of the dead. Like was said above, they weren't the point of the show originally. And unstoppable zombie armies without any motivation is just a but...dull.

 

They looked badass, and nothing else.

 

 

 

[Holko 9,516]

Yeah, buildup starting with the first scene of S01e01, the first thing we see being the gigantic Wall Bran the Builder built hundreds of years before to keep the Army out, then after 7 seasons of more buildup, we get the Army of the Dead finally walking South, stopping at the first real manned castle, fighting for no more than a few hours, taking down 5 named charaters out of the... 20 there?, only 2 of those 5 being major (and predictably dead btw), then get 100% annihilated in the third episode after people other than members of the Night's Watch start taking them seriously is just... shit. Feels like half the series was an almost complete waste if that's all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wow!

 

People are butt hurt over this episode! Awesome!

[Bilbo 3,709]

9 minutes ago, Knox Harrington said:

Yeah "subverting expectations" is one thing - lengthy plots with inadequate payoffs and bafflingly inconsistent characterizations/arcs are another.  

 

The whole army of the dead plot was what made Jon the character/man he is today. Made him the leader he is. It brought him and Dany together. The common cause was what joined them. It united many peoples and cultures that would never have been united. It’s basically what’s left of Westeros v Cersei now.

 

They’d probably never have seen eye to eye with the threat of the army of the dead. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It was just all very conventional.  I’m happy with the characters overall right now but that was a bad battle episode and a bad resolution to the Dead storyline.  Bring on the final three!  The show has always done the power struggles aspect best anyway!

[mstrox 6,649]

I was largely happy about it, but the Arya ending seemed a bit dumb.  Not the idea of it, just the execution of it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

4 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I was largely happy about it, but the Arya ending seemed a bit dumb.  Not the idea of it, just the execution of it.

 

What exactly?

[Alex 2,835]

Thank goodness for Melisandre deux ex machina

[mstrox 6,649]

It didn’t feel earned.  I know that they wanted to preserve the surprise of her appearance, but for me, having her come leaping from out of frame in a field full of enemies seemed very silly.  I’d have rather seen some inkling of how she made her approach in the episode.  Like I kind of mentioned above, I was happy with the battle, but at that point in the episode my spouse and I kind of looked at each other and shrugged 

[Alex 2,835]

This scene was great though 

 

[crocodile 7,999]

She was trained by faceless men who worship god of death. That is more than any of the other characters has on their resume. I'm not saying it's plausible, just that it will be as plausible as it can be.

 

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

She pulled that dropping of the knife move on Brienne in season 7 too so it’s not like that wasn’t forecasted either.

 

Bran made a deal of giving her that knife in the very spot she killed the NK in season 7 also.

[Fabulin 3,511]

.

[Arpy 4,145]

Of course not @Stefancos I'm disappointed by the fact that it cut off any chance for further development with a threat that deserved more attention and not too little, too late.

[leeallen01 2,135]

I have to say, what a disappointment. After so much talk of it being the battle to end all battles, it was quite frankly terrible. The entire episode was so dark that I couldn't see anything at all. I had to turn my tv brightness to full and still couldn't see anything. I had barely any idea of which character was still alive at any point, and where they were in the battle. The whole staging and execution was awful. The strategy writing of the battle was laughable also. Having your entire army OUTSIDE the castle walls so they can get slaughtered...okay, so what's the point of having a castle then?... Not using the dragons from the start...okay. Only using fire-loaded trebuchets for about 20 seconds...okay. Arya easily taking on about 50 of the dead single-handedly, but then gets scared and hides under a bed when there's a couple of them between some book shelves... BUT then five minutes later she isn't scared again and single-handedly kills the nightking with comical ease...okay. And of course there's sending all your women and children to the CRYPT where all the dead bodies are haha...okay. I guess every character completely lost their ability to think and instead acted like morons.

 

Ah well, at least I have another excuse to watch The Lord of the Rings to see how it should be done.

[Arpy 4,145]

I thought the stakes were higher at Winterfell, but the Battle for Helm's Deep has more emotional and visual satisfaction for me, especially with the arrival of Gandalf and the Rohirrim. 

[leeallen01 2,135]

They had the same basic premise of The Two Towers battle at Helms Deep; it's at night and has hoard of unstoppable killing machines swarming on a castle. They are outnumbered and all expect to die. They send the women and children underground, away from the battle. They have multiple heroes at different places in the battle. Part of the castle wall is blown up, allowing the enemy through etc.

 

The differences between the two though, are that in TTT you can see everything that's going on, despite it being night, the battle is expertly staged and paced so you know who is where and doing what at all times, and all the characters use their brains as well as their swords.

[Thor 7,490]

As others have said, it was too dark.

 

I made the mistake to see it earlier today, while the sun was shining brightly outside. I tried to shut the blinders and put up dark towels in front of the windows, but it didn't help. I could hardly make out anything. I wanted to see it early, so I could safely traverse social media and messageboards today without being spoiled, but not sure it was the right strategy. I probably need to rewatch it when it's darker outside to see what actually happened.

 

As for the content itself -- what I could make out of it, anyway -- it was pretty good. Not "The Red Wedding" good, but some cool variations on the familiar battle tropes.

[Fargo 297]

I don't even know how I feel about it. I'm not upset with No One being the hero in the end... but that basically means all prophesies that have been mentioned (most in the books) are pointless now. All the setup, foreshadowing, etc... all comes to an end because of one little sneaky girl.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What prophecies?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

[Fargo 297]

36 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

What prophecies?

 

Azor Ahai is the big one - that didn't happen (at least not in a way I can figure out).

 

The Valonqar is another big one, that could still happen but doubtful. I know we had a Maggie the Frog flashback in maybe season 3, but not sure if it was actually mentioned.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

2 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Azor Ahai is the big one.

 

That's just a religious belief. I think it's given way too much credence as an actual prediction by a lot of book readers. And, of course, it has barely featured in the show at all.

[Fargo 297]

4 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

That's just a religious belief. I think it's given way too much credence as an actual prediction by a lot of book readers. And, of course, it has barely featured in the show at all.

 

It's literally a prophesy,

 

"According to the prophecy of the One Who Was Promised, the One, a prophesied savior in the religion of R'hllor who is the reincarnation of legendary hero Azor Ahai, is destined to “lead the people against a darkness” by wielding a flaming sword called Lightbringer."

 

It's mentioned too many times in the book to be inconsequential. And it was mentioned in the show by Mel back when Stannis was still the Mannis.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The problem with Arya killing the NK is that it could have literally been anyone else who did it. Theon, Sam, Bran even.

1 minute ago, Fargo said:

 

"According to the prophecy of the One Who Was Promised, the One, a prophesied savior in the religion of R'hllor who is the reincarnation of legendary hero Azor Ahai, is destined to “lead the people against a darkness” by wielding a flaming sword called Lightbringer."

 

Beric Dondarion then!

[Wojo 2,453]

So Beric sacrifices himself to protect Arya and Sandor, then Arya satisfies the prophecy? 

[Fargo 297]

15 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Beric Dondarion then!

 

Apparently so. shrug

[crumbs 14,306]

Wow, I'm a little taken aback by all the negativity in here. Like, seriously? That was some fantastic drama, excellently directed. Through all the spectacle it retained a focus on the characters we care about. I thought it was brilliant the way they gave you an ember of hope before (literally) snuffing it out in the opening minutes with the Dothraki charge ending in a massacre.

 

What exactly were you all expecting to happen? There was only a handful of ways this could have gone; just because it didn't go the way you hoped doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

[mstrox 6,649]

I think this was a great episode for Arya.  I like the fact that her character got to fight like a madwoman, but the episode also managed to continue this season's mission softening/humanizing her after her life on the road.  I also think it's neat that once the battle starts, she basically only interacts with people on her kill list (Melisandre, the Hound, Beric), one of whom literally dies protecting her.
 

I think she was the right character to do the deed, and the set up was great, but then she just disappeared.  The dudes in the making-of video afterwards said that they were hoping you'd forget about Arya.  Maybe it's just me, but I hadn't forgotten her - I knew she left with a plan, and figured at that point that she'd be the one to finish it.  But because they were preserving the surprise, it just ended up seeming like her plan was "GET HIM."

 

If they'd tracked her in, shown her going through the effort - whether using her faceless man skills or not - of getting close, then we'd have a chance to get excited, and then see her "fail" (the Night King grabbing her) and then see her succeed with that move.  It could have had some dramatic weight.  But as it was presented, it was so out of nowhere and then so quick that it just fell flat for me.

 

This is kind of a minor nitpick, since I liked the episode overall.

[Jay 37,337]

My main problem with Arya killing the Night King is that she didn't seem to use any of her special Faceless Man powers or training at all, really; She just jumped towards him and then pricked him with a dagger.

 

It would have made a lot more sense if she used her Faceless Man disguise powers and basically was "wearing the face" of one of his lieutenants and that's why she was able to get close enough to stab him.  Something like that.

 

 

My other problem is just that it wasn't set up at all.  I get that the writers wanted it to be surprising but to me a surprise only works if its a satisfying result that still would have made sense if it wasn't done as a surprise, and if it was set up before hand and stands as a logical outcome of prior events.  Bran giving her the dagger in the same area and her doing the knife trick when training with Brienne isn't good enough in my book.

 

Her entire character arc has never had anything to do with the Walker/Night King threat, it's been about revenge against anyone that did her wrong and whether or not she was too far gone as a murderous psychopath or if she'd be able to lead a normal life.  If they had done SOMETHING this season to set up a special relationship with Bran, or if anyone had had a discussion about her specific powers/training and how it could be used in a siege situation like this or something, any sort of foreshadowing or setup would have helped a lot.  Instead it just felt like a cheap cop-out because the writers couldn't think of anything better.

 

It really feels like after 6 seasons of adapting a book series, they decided to cash out and write the quickest ending possible to air in 13 episodes and then move on to their next project.  Which is a shame.

 

If anything the show is making me more interested in reading the books now than I was before because I can't imagine much of what we've seen in seasons 7 and 8 is what GRRM was heading towards at all.  But it seems doubtful GRRM will live long enough to finish the story anyway so I probably won't bother lol

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I just didn't feel like I was in the hands of an assured storyteller in this episode.  It felt unfocused, rushed, poorly planned.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Just now, Fargo said:

It's literally a prophesy.

 

Indeed. That says nothing at all about its predictive value, just as the legend of the original Azor Ahai isn't a reliable source of historical fact. As you quoted, it's a tenet of the religion of R'hllor, and there's no reason to believe that the "Lord of Light" actually exists.

 

7 minutes ago, Fargo said:

It's mentioned too many times in the book to be inconsequential.

 

It's certainly consequential, but that's different from being true. Prophecies are significant in the work mainly through how awareness of them can affect people's actions.

 

11 minutes ago, Fargo said:

And it was mentioned in the show by Mel back when Stannis was still the Mannis.

 

And she has referred to the "Prince that was promised" a few times more recently. But these ideas haven't been treated as very significant issues in the show - in fact, I recall Benioff and Weiss saying that they deliberately avoided making a big deal of prophecies in order that the audience wouldn't get sidetracked trying to interpret them...

 

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The problem with Arya killing the NK is that it could have literally been anyone else who did it. Theon, Sam, Bran even.

 

I'd like to have seen Sam try to sneak up that way...

 

1 minute ago, Jay said:

My main problem with Arya killing the Night King is that she didn't seem to use any of her special Faceless Man powers or training at all, really

 

I think she did. We weren't shown how she got to that point in order to preserve the surprise, but it's implied that she was able to get there by virtue of her training.

[crumbs 14,306]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

My main problem with Arya killing the Night King is that she didn't seem to use any of her special Faceless Man powers or training at all, really; She just jumped towards him and then pricked him with a dagger. 

 

It would have made a lot more sense if she used her Faceless Man disguise powers and basically was "wearing the face" of one of his lieutenants and that's why she was able to get close enough to stab him.  Something like that. 

 

That's probably my only nitpick as well. It would have neatly tied in with that entire storyline and given the whole thing some weight.

 

However (and this is a big however) let's not forget there's still 3 episodes and a hell of a lot of story to play out here. We don't yet know how all these storylines resolve themselves. It's not a stretch to think Arya's faceless man training could factor into Cersei's (or someone else's) demise.

 

Nor do we know what Bran was doing, warging off in the middle of the battle for hours on end.

[Wojo 2,453]

If a minute of point blank fire breath does not even singe the Night King's magical outfit, what makes you think he would be fooled by Faceless Man copycat magic? I would have liked to see him see through it, but the person who has that skill is the same person they tapped to kill him. 

[Jay 37,337]

It does seem like Cersei is winning right now, doesn't it?

She basically got what she wanted; Almost the entire northern army wiped out defeating the undead for her.  And it seems like while both of Dany's dragons survived, they might not be at full operating capacity, like after the arena battle from a few seasons ago.

 

I'd think if she marched her new Golden army up north right now, she could take over the North without much issue.  Really only the Eyrie and the Iron Islands would be left, and that wouldn't last.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Just now, Disco Stu said:

I just didn't feel like I was in the hands of an assured storyteller in this episode.  It felt unfocused, rushed, poorly planned.

 

I felt that to some degree the first time I watched it; I was probably thinking too much and trying to second guess things. On a second viewing the structure and flow felt much more satisfying. I'll give it a third go before coming to any sort of judgment.

[mstrox 6,649]

.

[crumbs 14,306]

7 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

it's implied that she was able to get there by virtue of her training.

 

Well said, especially that shot of the White Walker noticing the rush of air beside him. Isn't part of the Faceless Man training that of stealth? There was always an air of mysticism and magic around their training; this conclusion fits perfectly into that mythos.

 

Jaqen similarly appeared mysteriously throughout early seasons.

[mstrox 6,649]

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Nor do we know what Bran was doing, warging off in the middle of the battle for hours on end.

 

Bran, if you're going to warg off, please just go to your room!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Nor do we know what Bran was doing, warging off in the middle of the battle for hours on end.

 

Yeah I'm really hoping Bran gets to do something cool still.  He's been a sack of potatoes for a while now.

 

It's just crazy that they reveal that he has the power to affect the past from the future, or at least to make the line between them indistinct, and have NEVER revisited that idea in any way.  I'm not saying I want time travel or something, but.... it's a crazy thing to introduce and never reference again.

[Wojo 2,453]

Did Gilly die? Some woman was dragged to her death by cryptkeepers, but it's unclear who it was. 

 

At least we learned definitively that the NK could reanimate based on proximity, not just direct touch. Cool skill for the ten minutes it was useful. 

[Jay 37,337]

Another issue I had is with Bran.  They built and built him up to be really super powerful, not only with the insight into events from around both time and location, but also the ability to warg into and control any animals OR HUMANS (Hodor).  When it finally came down to it, to the big battle, he fucks off to .... control a bird for a while and fly around?  Why?  What did that accomplish?  Was it just to have us the audience see the dragon battle in the sky?  We were already seeing that before he warged in.

 

It would have made a lot more sense if the defeat of the NIght King was something Arya and Bran pre-planned together, some combination of her training AND his powers.  Like her training allows her to sneak past his lieutenants and get close, which distracts the NK long enough to not realize Bran has warged into some animal or Theon's dying corpse or something to give the fatal wound... something like that, SOMETHING more interesting than just a sneak-past and jump-strike, with Bran playing no role in his death whatsoever.

[Holko 9,516]

We already learnt that at Hardhome.

Just now, xWxzek said:

 

At least we learned definitively that the NK could reanimate based on proximity, not just direct touch. Cool skill for the ten minutes it was useful. 

 

[crumbs 14,306]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

something like that, SOMETHING more interesting than just a sneak-past and jump-strike, with Bran playing no role in his death whatsoever.

 

Uh... you mean other than giving Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that ends up killing him, at the exact spot Arya kills him no less?

 

I'd say Bran played a pretty significant role in killing the Night King.

 

 

[Jay 37,337]

13 minutes ago, xWxzek said:

Did Gilly die? Some woman was dragged to her death by cryptkeepers, but it's unclear who it was. 

 

That was a random extra, Gilly is fine.

 

The only people who died were Theon, Jorah, Melisandre, Edd, Beric, and Lady Mormont

 

Quote

At least we learned definitively that the NK could reanimate based on proximity, not just direct touch. Cool skill for the ten minutes it was useful. 

 

We already saw that at Hardhome episode a few years ago

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Uh... you mean other than giving Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that ends up killing him, at the exact spot Arya kills him no less?

 

I'd say Bran played a pretty significant role in killing the Night King.

 

I'd like an explanation for why both Bran and NK can seemingly see the future, like IE the NK knew Danerys would come so had a ice spear ready to kill the dragon and chains ready to pull him out of the water, but then the NK can't see his own death coming.

This is why Disco Stu is completely right and the ultimate defeat of the NK should have had something sort of mystical/magical aspect to it, some final showdown between Bran and the NK in a vision or whatever... not just being stabbed in the gut by Valryan Steel.

[leeallen01 2,135]

42 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Wow, I'm a little taken aback by all the negativity in here. Like, seriously? That was some fantastic drama, excellently directed. Through all the spectacle it retained a focus on the characters we care about. I thought it was brilliant the way they gave you an ember of hope before (literally) snuffing it out in the opening minutes with the Dothraki charge ending in a massacre.

 

What exactly were you all expecting to happen? There was only a handful of ways this could have gone; just because it didn't go the way you hoped doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

 

 

I cannot fathom how you thought it was well directed. The pacing was shocking. There was only one sequence that was visually interesting (when the dragons were flying virtically through the clouds and we had a big beautiful wide shot of them above the clouds, but even that was a copy of Neo and Trinity's above the clouds moment in Matrix Revolutions.) All action scenes were handheld shaky cam, so you couldn't make out what was fighting what half the time. I thought every major hero died about 3 times each because I couldn't see anything. I had zero feeling of suspense because there were countless deus ex machina whenever a main character was about to die. That is bad directing and bad storytelling.

[Jay 37,337]

Another issue is really that there, ultimately, is no war between Man and the Undead.  It all comes down to just one Battle.

 

The War of the Five Kings lasted for years.  It consisted of many battles, some we saw on screen, some we heard talked about as happening off screen.

But the biggest threat we've been following since minute 1 of episode 1 ends up concluding after a single night of combat.

 

Weird.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Another issue is really that there, ultimately, is no war between Man and the Undead.  It all comes down to just one Battle.

 

The War of the Five Kings lasted for years.  It consisted of many battles, some we saw on screen, some we heard talked about as happening off screen.

But the biggest threat we've been following since minute 1 of episode 1 ends up concluding after a single night of combat.

 

The War of the Night King lasted for decades. We saw some of it onscreen (the massacre at Hardhome) and some we heard talked about as happening offscreen (the Battle of the Fist of the First Men). It seems as though virtually the entire population of Wildlings has been wiped out as well as almost all of the Night's Watch and large number of Northerners. It wasn't a single night of combat. Obviously, if it was going to end at all, it would be on some single day or night...

[Jay 37,337]

Hmm that's true, I didn't think of it that way.