GAME OF THRONES

[Quintus 5,399]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Doesn't mean the blokes are bad writers, though.

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

18 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

 

I don’t have a problem with criticism of the writing itself. 

 

It’s the idea that anyone involved in a big budget show like this just phones it in or doesn’t care. 

 

It’s obvious these guys weren’t up to the task of the final two seasons and seriously misjudged a lot of things but I’m sure they gave it their best and simply came up short. 

 

 

This is a dangerous argument to make. Taken to it's logical end, you would deny the inherent value of criticism itself.

 

You could literally pull out the "they tried" card for anything. We all try. We all try in our work too. But people still get bad ratings in performance reviews and people get laid off.

 

It's the output that's being criticized and it is perfectly okay to do so in any circumstance. Nothing is above criticism.

 

It you entertained "they tried" for everything, you would criticize nothing and all art would be meaningless.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Nobody's saying that.

 

But there's something to be said for toning one's criticisms down from the histrionic "worst thing everrrrrr" that the internet is trafficing in, for something more sensible and measured in its outlook.

 

If reminding oneself that people worked hard on the product is what gets you to rein-in your criticism and prevent it from turning into needless derision, than so be it.

[Arpy 4,145]

They tried and failed, it doesn't give anything or anyone a free pass to not be criticized nor does it suggest there's nothing of value in criticism itself. 

 

You can use D&D as punching bags, kick them, pull their nails out, but at the end of the day, with a massive ship to steer like GoT, don't you think that it could be conceivable that these writers are fallible humans, who weren't exactly geniuses from the beginning?

 

6 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

This is a dangerous argument to make. Taken to it's logical end, you would deny the inherent value of criticism itself.

 

You could literally pull out the "they tried" card for anything. We all try. We all try in our work too. But people still get bad ratings in performance reviews and people get laid off.

 

It's the output that's being criticized and it is perfectly okay to do so in any circumstance. Nothing is above criticism.

 

It you entertained "they tried" for everything, you would criticize nothing and all art would be meaningless.

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Criticism is fine.

 

Derision - not so much. Few and far between are the products who deserve that.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Criticism is fine.

 

Derision - not so much. Few and far between are the products who deserve that.

 

Says you!

[Chen G. 3,943]

You're free to disagree.

 

Personally, I don't see derision as very helpful anymore.

 

I like liking movies and TV shows, and when I absolutely have to dislike something, it brings me no joy to do so.

[Bilbo 3,709]

24 minutes ago, Arpy said:

They tried and failed, it doesn't give anything or anyone a free pass to not be criticized nor does it suggest there's nothing of value in criticism itself. 

 

You can use D&D as punching bags, kick them, pull their nails out, but at the end of the day, with a massive ship to steer like GoT, don't you think that it could be conceivable that these writers are fallible humans, who weren't exactly geniuses from the beginning?

 

 

 

Exactly. They’re also not the only people who deserve criticism. There’s the studio and producers (and Martin himself who is still credited as a co-producer) who were involved. 

 

43 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I still think maybe they'll be more suited for Star Wars, which doesn't call for the same depth and sophistication.  Just some world-building and a fairly simple hero's journey narrative.

 

Yeah. If they keep it simple I think they could knock it out of the park. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think you're all thinking about this way too hard

[Holko 9,499]

Well the big problem with the quality of the writing here is how it's been on a steady decline from great and it's not even near the same ballpark anymore. SW doesn't really have that standard and it would be a standalone thing anyway.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

You're free to disagree.

 

Personally, I don't see derision as very helpful anymore.

 

I like liking movies and TV shows, and when I absolutely have to dislike something, it brings me no joy to do so.

 

Again, take this to the logical end. Would you say this applies to the efforts of politicians too? That they can be subject to criticism but derision is going over the line and unacceptable?

[Chen G. 3,943]

Derision isn't necessarily over the line. It depends on the situation.

 

I don't think this season of Game of Thrones deserves derision: criticism? Sure. But derision? Its really not that bad.

[Jay 37,287]

This is what I've been saying:

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

They did have the plot points from Martin, didn't they?

 

I think they were told by Martin how he wants his books to end, and some details about a few characters. That isnt the same as plot point.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Doesn't mean the blokes are bad writers, though.

 

They may not be bad writers, but good writers can still deliver sub standard stuff. In a way that is actually worse if you think about it. 

I'm actually not sure how to classify D&D right now. Bad writers but solid adapters? Good showrunners but mediocre writers? 

Perhaps some of the shows other regular writers are in fact more talented, and they leaned on their talents and that of the books the show was once based on? 

 

I don't know right now?

[Jay 37,287]

So true:

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ouch ..

[Wojo 2,453]

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Do you really think the filmmakers aren't trying to give it everything they've got?

 

That's the odd thing about it all. Considering how many of these last episodes' problems stem not so much from things being handled badly or poorly (case in point: Dany's turning - it doesn't have nearly the impact it could have, but in itself it works and is certainly not one of the big problems), but simply *not* being handled (once Dany turns, she's reduced to a CGI blob in the sky; Euron shows up to fight Jamie why?; Cersei does... nothing? etc.), I really do have the impression that they've stopped caring.

 

Creating a huge fleet open sea sneak attack through a 180° camera turn doesn't really fit together with giving it everything you've got in my book.

 

(And I'm usually one to be mostly happy with series finals. I'm still defending the ending of Lost, or in fact I still don't see why it caused so much consternation)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[crocodile 7,984]

 

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

#TeamSansa!

[Bilbo 3,709]

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't even want the show to be good anymore! Let the last ep fail in SPECTACULAR fashion!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

This show is too dark and disturbing for me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nihilistic, nowadays.

 

Its a show an nothing!

[Quintus 5,399]

 

If it were a .gov petition with that amount of votes the UK government would now have to debate the matter in parliament.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wouldn't sign that out of principle, tbh.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It’s pathetic imo

[KK 3,307]

Just more attention-seeking desperation. Typical social media hoopla.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

THE SHOW HAS JUMPED THE SHARK MAN!!!11

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

9 hours ago, crocodile said:

 

Good parts pack!

On 5/14/2019 at 10:16 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

Interesting parallel there btw compared to the very first episode of the series, when Ned Stark sentences the deserter to death and executes him himself, because the law demands it and it is considered just, but deliberately regretting it

 

Thinking of it, the main story arc could come neatly full circle if Jon Snow ends up sentencing and executing Dany in the same way.

[Arpy 4,145]

I think it's too late for any good conclusion. Like @Jay said, there's so much to wrap up, and they screwed the pooch with this recent episode. 

The only convincing way to kill Daenerys now would be for Jon to do it unwillingly, after an internal struggle. He loves her so it has to be out of love and regret that he would kill her.

[Wojo 2,453]

I wish the leaked spoilers were wrong. 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

16 hours ago, Stefancos said:

#TeamSansa!

 

#fucksansa

 

Davos 2020

[Bilbo 3,709]

I dont’t think a redhead would make a good leader. 

[Arpy 4,145]

If Tyrion survives, he should be the king, or end the monarchy and create a republic governed by the people - that's breaking the wheel.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

I dont’t think a redhead would make a good leader. 

 

Fuck off!

[Bilbo 3,709]

37 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Fuck off!

 

A response typifying the hot headed nature that makes ginger’s unsuitable got leadership. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Up your hole!

[Bilbo 3,709]

See! You just keep proving my point!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How many tits have we seen this season? 8 pairs right? 6 in the first episode?

 

See, they're not even trying anymore!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Maybe that’s the problem. 

 

There haven’t been enough tits in a show about Tits and Dragons 

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Maybe that’s the problem. 

 

There haven’t been enough tits in a show about Tits and Dragons 

What're you talking about? I see hundreds of tits and one dragon! 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

 

[Quintus 5,399]

I was thinking about the arc and demise of the Varys character in this. Such an instrumental player in the story and a major presence in the show; just to be abruptly singed by dragon fire and conveniently binned off as little more than a spare loose end as the thing wraps. What a joke.

[Jay 37,287]

For a while, it seemed like everything happening in the show was an elaborate chess game played between Littlefinger and Varys.

 

And maybe it is in the books.  But the way the show writers unceremoniously killed off both Littlefinger and Varys without it ever seeming like they had more steps planned that never got to play out was pretty disappointing.

[SteveMc 2,674]

Sounds like the showrunners have lost interest, to me.

It happens.

[Holko 9,499]

So, Jon spent a lot of time thinking of his mother and true belonging back in the day I think. What does he think now about his parentage? How is he dealing with it? Will it even come into play other than making Dany a bit more moody than she already is? Nope, characters and dialogue are hard to write and take up precious time, so Jon is reduced into an overpaid extra saying any combination of "I love you", "She's/You're my Queen" and "I don't want it" this season.

[Jay 37,287]

Yea, that's another big problem with this season.  Jon is supposed to be, I'd say, as close to the "main character" as this series has, and the reveal of his parentage was an epic bomb drop.  Sure, it was lessened somewhat by groupthink sharing theories over the decades since the book series began that figured it out ahead of time, but the revelation should had massive implications about everything going forward.  And I even like that other characters knew it before Jon himself did, which allowed for other interesting angles to be considered in between seasons.

 

But now here we are, and the revelation has meant almost nothing after 5 episodes and 6 hours of screen time.  It literally has not changed his character at all, and only basically very slightly gave Daenerys more fuel to go mad, and that's it about it.  (I would say Jon telling Sansa after Dany asked him not to, and Sansa telling Tyrion after promising not to tell anyone was all in character).

The show used to have a political undercurrent running through it at all times, as all the different people in power spread over over all these different regions pursued different goals, and different plot points / character deaths affected them differently and moved different pieces into place and caused different people to take different actions that affected other things.  One action would have a cascading effect that rippled changes throughout other areas and stories.

 

But this season has no time for that, so we don't really get any time spend pondering oh how the different regions might have grown to back Jon vs Dany vs Cersei, what skirmishes or battles might have come from that, how each other those leaders might have responding to different areas pledging their allegiance.

 

We don't even check in with the other regions any more.  Dany wants to be the ruler of the "7 Kingdoms", but all we ever really see this season is The North (Winterfell), and The Crownlands (King's Landing and Dragonstone).  What's happening with The Vale (the Eyrie), The Iron Islands (Pyke), The Riverlands (Riverrun), The Westerlands (Casterly Rock), The Reach (Highgarden), Dorne (Sunspear), The Stormlands (Storm's End) lately?  Who knows!

[Holko 9,499]

The map only consists of Winterfell, KL and Dragonstone now. Every other location and its people go out of existence until a main character mentions them, in which case they pop back in but fade away again within 2 scenes unless a character from them is present.