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GAME OF THRONES


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Not a bad opener I suppose, but the buckling under its own weight is as present as it ever was, and really I only sort of have a very vague clue about what everyone's motivations are these days, where they are up to and why they are currently where they are. So many lost characters and once major subplots forgotten, I only really care about Winter arriving now, which they kept saying it had come; but I kept wondering about that since in most scenes the weather seemed quite delightful to me.

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The schizophrenic jumping between locations is often a weakness of the show.  It can work in the books, where Martin clearly puts no limits on himself in terms of length.

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Sure, books are a totally different ballgame. 

 

But yeah, country hopping Game of Thrones on TV makes the erratic locales of Twin Peaks: The Return look like Coronation Street.

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Yeah, it's clear in as far as I know all that ("there's war brewing on all fronts" isn't really difficult to work out). But the various intracies of how they all got to where they all are now? I've forgotten most of it. When Jorah showed up, I'd practically forgotten he actually existed and at one time was even a key character. There will be loads like me who had all but forgotten about Beric Dondarrion and his whole minor appearance years ago, but now he's back and apparently it matters (I only knew he was a follower of the Lord of the Light after they explained it again). What about about Robert's bastard son who escaped with Arya? In the recap, there was also a brief shot of Max Von Sydow being pulverised. Fuck knows.

 

That map scene with Jamie and Cersei was funny though. Useful, but still amusing.

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5 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

- Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger, Brienne, Podrick, Tormund [and Davos] all are at Winterfell and intend to go North to stop the Walkers.

 

This one isn't as clear-cut as you implied! Jon, Tormund and Davos are concerned exclusively with the threat of the White Walkers (though, apart from Tormund, haven't yet expressed any intention of going north; indeed, they seem to be preparing for the likelihood of conflict south of the Wall).

 

Sansa is also concerned about the threat from Cersei in the south, and chastised Jon for ignoring this.

 

As for Littlefinger, however, I don't recall him ever uttering a single word in relation to the White Walkers over the course of the series, and there's no indication that he's been persuaded to join that cause during his time at Winterfell. On the contrary, it all seems business as usual with him, taking every opportunity to encourage distrust between Jon and Sansa. To what end...?

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At this point, Littlefinger's motives are so opaque it's more frustrating than ever.  And it's been pretty frustrating in the past.  It started as interesting, mysterious characterization but at this point it's just irritating that we've been following this character for years now and have no idea, ever, what he's actually trying to do.  It's the kind of thing where, no matter what happens, people can act like it was always part of his plan.

 

Not dissimilar from the way some talk about Trump, actually.  Like he's always playing 5 dimensional chess, 10 moves ahead of you.

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He seems obscure and even redundant now. The writers are probably cooking up some convoluted comeback for the character though. Let's face it - they'd better be.

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I keep waiting for him to reveal that he and Grandma Tyrrell had a hand in killing Joffrey, but that plot thread seems to have been abandoned intentionally. It's only important that Joffrey is dead and Cersei thinks Tyrion did it. 

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14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Seriously? Don't like the character nor the actor playing him. I see what they're trying to do with him, but it's just not working (I think Pilou Asbek doesn't play him very well. He's overdoing it). I personally hope the character will be killed off quickly (since the King's Landing plot should be resolved this season, it won't take long I suppose!).

 

Eh I dunno, I was charmed by his scene!  He's a bit different than all the other characters wanting power, you know?  He's fun.

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Oh, and the scene with all the nice Lannisters was heavy-handed as hell. "Hey, look Arya, not all Lannisters are bad!", with each and every one of them being a sweetheart. Also having Sheeran in there took me out of the scene.

 

I didn't really think of the scene that way.  I really like the way it was edited, with her being so cautious, eyeing where their weapons are, etc.  It was a moment to show the audience how cautious she is, while also showing her let her guard down once she considered them not a threat.  Now, that was all I took away from it, but my wife had a different interpretation: She thinks next week she'll kill all, or at least one of them, and take their face and use it to infiltrate King's Landing to try to kill Cersei.

 

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

That being said, good episode, though. Good to have Bran and Meera finally at Castle Black (doesn't seem that the fact the Night King touched Bran on the arm affected the spells protecting the Wall, as some (including myself) thought it could have. Or it hasn't been revealed yet that Bran crossing the Wall has affected it).

 

Yea, I think if Bran crossing the wall with the mark on him mattered, they would have focused on his arm in-episode, or at least included the Night King touching his arm in the recap.

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

And nice sequence with the Brotherhood Without Banner and the Hound (cool character development there).

 

Yea, he's really been on of the most interesting characters of the past 2 seasons, really.  Rory McCann's acting plays a big role in that.  Incidentally, I loved his line "It’s my fucking luck I end up with a bunch of fire-worshipers." :lol:

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Oh, and I agree with LeBlanc: the sequence with Dany-O arriving at Dragonstone looked great but the music clearly didn't leave up to such an important moment in the story. The scene could have made (and should have made!) a much bigger impact with a proper cue written for it and recorded with an actual fully symphonic orchestra! Bah!

 

A recurring disappoint in this show!

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

It's looking like Sam will go ask for the help of Daenerys, and then it'll be fire (Dany-O) and ice (Jon) at last!

 

I dunno about that:  I don't see why Daenerys would care about that "threat" she knows nothing about and has no personal experience with.  Do you think Sam will really leave The Citadel already?  And be able to convince Daenerys of anything?  Her entire goal right now is The Iron Throne.  I can't imagine anything we've ever seen about her or her counselors would have them abandon their Iron Throne goal to shift north to fight a different threat at all.  This season seems to be about her taking over King's Landing, with next season being fire and ice vs the White Walkers to finish the story.

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Also looking less and less likely that there'll be a Hound/Mountain brawl, as fans had hoped (with the Hound now seemingly going north to stop the Walkers, and the Mountain to fight in the upcoming battle of King's Landing (possibly killed by the Sand Snakes, thus avenging the death of their father?)).

 

Yea, that seems more likely.

 

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

P.S.: Based on the trailer for the next episode...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

You watch the next time on previews?  You disappoint me, BB!

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2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

(deep breath)

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Maybe he could delete his music career next and retire from public life?

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Euron was pretty unremarkable after his first appearances - like, who the hell is this guy? - but his scene this week I think sold him with a bit more personality. 

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Just another shoehorned in character to me, purely to facilitate the plugging of a gaping [plot] hole in Cersei's military spending budget.

 

But I wonder what shall be the actual deus ex machina of this story, before the end.

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1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

Well, yes, and that's fine, but the way they're presenting him, as some sort of roguish rock star (well, that's what this outfit in this episode made me think of), just doesn't work for me. Plus, again, I think Asbek is trying too hard to make him look badass, which ends up having the opposite effect.

 

Hmm, oh well, to each their own.  I doubt he'll be around for too long anyway, regardless!

 

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

Well, yes, it was clearly shown in the scene Arya was being cautious and all. But ultimately, this scene was clearly there for Arya to realize the people she thought were evil are actually not ALL bad. Some of them are just people that are forced to participate in the conflict even though they'd rather be with their family and all that crap.

 

Maybe it's a set-up for something later in the story: as she's about to kill Cersei, Arya realizes she's just a mad woman who loved her children and who was only trying to protect them, even if it was a stupid ways and with disastrous consequences. And she'll spare her life because of that, thus ending the endless cycle of hatred between the Starks and the Lannisters!

 

You don't think its possible she'll use one of their faces to get near Cersei?

 

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

Well, I never wanted to suggest everything was going to happen in the next episode or anything. But it seems clear to me Sam is going to go to Dragonstone at some point to collect dragonglass. It will most likely happen after Daenerys has taken King's Landing. As for convincing her, I'm sure he'll manage that somehow (or something else will convince her to help him. Maybe Jorah will play a part in that?).

 

I don't think its clear at all... when he realized dragonglass wasn't there, he wasn't like "Gilly, let's go!", he was like "I have to tell Jon!".  Now, MAYBE Jon will write back and tell Sam to go get it himself... or maybe he'll send, I dunno, Brienne of Tarth down to get it?

 

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

On a sidenote, something I forgot to mention: I really hope we'll finally get to see Casterly Rock this season, after having heard of it for so long. Feels a bit like Minas Tirith in LOTR: the characters keep on talking and talking about that place during 2/3rds of the story, creating a great sense of anticipation before we finally get to see the damn place in the last act, in all its glorious beauty! Hopefully, this is what will happen here too.

 

Ultimately, I don't think its that important of a location.  It's about to be buried in snow, anyway, like everywhere else.  I think seeing Valyria is more likely!

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Sam will tell Jon where the motherlode of dragonglass is located, which will prompt Jon to seek an alliance with Dany. Hopefully he will wait at Winterfell long enough for Bran to arrive with word of Jon's heritage for leverage. 

 

Thing is, what does Jon have to offer Dany in return? Very little. She wants the Iron Throne, her birthright. She does not want or need to enter a war on a second front, the North. For now, she can ignore the White Walkers as long as the folks in the North can hold out. 

 

Jon can reveal his heritage to her, but how will she handle this revelation?

 

Jon's best hope for alliance with Dany is that Tyrion remembers what kind of man Jon is and can vouch for him, assuming that Dany dismisses the distant family tie. We saw how she reacted to her brother's fate. 

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2 minutes ago, Woj said:

Sam will tell Jon where the motherlode of dragonglass is located, which will prompt Jon to seek an alliance with Dany. Hopefully he will wait at Winterfell long enough for Bran to arrive with word of Jon's heritage for leverage. 

 

Damn you're right, that makes more sense.

 

2 minutes ago, Woj said:

Thing is, what does Jon have to offer Dany in return? Very little. She wants the Iron Throne, her birthright. She does not want or need to enter a war on a second front, the North. For now, she can ignore the White Walkers as long as the folks in the North can hold out. 

 

You're right, it will basically be "I want your dragonglass" / "You can have it if you help me take over King's Landing", and now the Season 7 penultimate battle is set!

 

2 minutes ago, Woj said:

Jon can reveal his heritage to her, but how will she handle this revelation?

 

They might actually fall in love with each other when they meet and she would marry him for love more than status, who knows.

 

2 minutes ago, Woj said:

Jon's best hope for alliance with Dany is that Tyrion remembers what kind of man Jon is and can vouch for him, assuming that Dany dismisses the distant family tie. We saw how she reacted to her brother's fate. 

 

Right!

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10 minutes ago, Jay said:

You're right, it will basically be "I want your dragonglass" / "You can have it if you help me take over King's Landing", and now the Season 7 penultimate battle is set!

 

But that would force Jon to divide his troops and send some south to attack KL. I think we're meant to believe he's already outnumbered and can't spare any to send south. That was the argument Sansa was trying to make. 

 

I could see Dany falling in love or marrying for power. I just don't see Jon as offering a position of power to entice her, at least not with his birthright in question. 

 

OTOH, incest is not out of the realm of possibility for the Targaryen family. 

 

I can now see him making the request for dragonglass before he learns of his heritage, and being spurned. It'd be a cool moment if she rebukes him and sends the dragons to eat him, but of course they bow in deference. That would just make Bran's entire plot arc redundant so it probably won't happen. 

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I think that the nub of the matter is that Jon is correct about the fact that they all have a common problem which will overwhelm the conflicts between them. The issue that he faces is squarely one of persuasion - persuading the other factions (a) that the White Walkers are real and are a major threat, and (b) that they should sort out their personal differences pronto and start to coordinate their efforts. One would expect that if Daenerys could be convinced about (a) then she'd have the wit and responsibility to get around to (b), unless her sense of entitlement warps her judgement completely. With Cersei, I wouldn't make any such assumptions...

 

34 minutes ago, Woj said:

Jon can reveal his heritage to her, but how will she handle this revelation? 

 

I wonder if Bran even knows the full story about Jon's heritage. So far, all we've seen him learn is the identity of the mother.

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5 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

I wonder if Bran even knows the full story about Jon's heritage. So far, all we've seen him learn is the identity of the mother.


Littlefinger would likely know that Ned's sis was shacked up with Dany's brother

 

I mean, everybody at that tournament saw him walk past his wife (the Martel) and pick Lyanna as the Queen of beauty instead

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Just now, Jay said:

Littlefinger would likely know that Ned's sis was shacked up with Dany's brother

 

Well, everyone "knows" that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar and, given the look that Littlefinger gave when Sansa mentioned that to him in the crypt, he may well have his suspicions or even knowledge that there was a relationship of mutual affection between the two of them (if indeed there was). But does he know that Jon is their son?

 

More to the point, if Jon's real parentage is revealed, so what? He's still Jon Snow, a bastard (albeit with different parents than previously thought) and no more right to any titles (according to their laws of heredity) than Gendry has.

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The world knowing his parentage doesn't affect their likelihood of giving him titles, but could affect Dany's view of him as the sole other living Targaryen.

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Just now, BloodBoal said:

He can ride a fucking dragon, that's what!

 

Indeed, it could be relevant in that sort of respect. I was talking purely about the ramifications for his legal status!

 

One doesn't have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon, though. (According to George R. R. Martin, at least. Maybe they'll change that for the show, but I dunno; they made a big deal the affinity Tyrion had with them...)

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3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

But there's that theory that Tyrion could also be a Targaryen...

 

True! But I very much doubt that either Benioff & Weiss or George R.R. Martin would go down the road of having both Jon and Tyrion turn out to be unwitting Targaryens! Could be wrong, though...

 

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

The world knowing his parentage doesn't affect their likelihood of giving him titles, but could affect Dany's view of him as the sole other living Targaryen.

 

Maybe. What I was really getting at is that, although we viewers have this apparently crucial bit of information of which the characters are ignorant, I'm not sure that it helps us see where the story is headed. If anything, it's a further complication at the moment...

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Well, George RR Martin made him half Targaryen for a reason, right?  As a book reader, do you have any hints as to why he would have done so that isn't apparent to only show watchers?

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People (including BloodBoal above, I think) often refer to Jon and Daenerys as representing "Ice" and "Fire", respectively. To me, that view seems to render Jon's dual Stark / Targaryen parentage redundant. It seems a lot more fitting that Jon can represent both sides of the ice-and-fire coin simultaneously, and that this is why Martin made him half Targaryen. I'd guess that the implications are more to do with the magical aspects of such heritage rather than the "legal" aspects, but it's still mostly a mystery. It might well have something to do with how his resurrection comes about in the books (you've probably seen the theories concerning Ghost, which came to nothing in the show).

 

In any case, I think that any claim to titles that Jon could make on the basis of his parentage will be irrelevant by the end, because I'm sure that he's doomed. (At least, I hope he is...no offence, Jon).

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That last suggestion should have spoiler tags!

 

Another important point is that Martin seems to plant seeds for things just in case he later wants them to sprout. There are lots of hints in the early books pointing towards Tyrion being a Targaryen, but I think most people agree that, by the time Tyrion killed Tywin, Martin had decided that they really were father and son. It might be that he didn't have a clear idea himself of how Jon's parentage would impact the story in the early stages. Maybe he still doesn't!

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