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7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

I found a lot of things risible about this episode.  But actually pretty much everything about Arya in this episode was fantastic.  Basically the only aspect of the episode that worked for me was her.

 

I don't even know why she was there, she doesnt actually do anything in the episode but try and escape the onslaught. But yeah, at least it gave the carnage a point of view.

 

But, yet another battle without any feeling of a narrative, or strategy, or eb and flow. At one point in the episode the all-encompassing firestorm begins, and that's it. 

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Episode 3 was a poor mans Battle of Helms Deep, and this episode was a poor mans Seige of Minas Tirith.

 

They could both be set side by side in a film class as examples of how to do it and how not to do it.

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5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But yeah, at least it gave the carnage a point of view.

 

It was definitely the most well-done part of the episode from that perspective as well, making sure we really feel it.

 

But yeah I'm pretty checked out at this point.  I don't feel the dramatic stakes at all.

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It's a bit apples and oranges in that comparison, even in my efforts to use LotR as fair example, the battles were both different in what they were hoping to achieve. Most of the King's Landing sequences in this episode were brilliant, brilliantly crafted, shot and executed. If they had made that feeling of helplessness in a situation like that last the majority of an episode, it would've been great. Unfortunately it seemed like they were trying to wrap up the character arcs of three different people and each one was lessened by just how rushed it all was.

5 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Episode 3 was a poor mans Battle of Helms Deep, and this episode was a poor mans Seige of Minas Tirith.

 

They could both be set side by side in a film class as examples of how to do it and how not to do it.

 

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7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

But yeah I'm pretty checked out at this point.  I don't feel the dramatic stakes at all.

 

There are none. Dany has become the new big bad of the series, after Joffrey, Ramsey, Little Finger, the Night King and Cersei are gone. All the show needs to do to finish is to have her killed, and put someone who's better than her (and this point anyone who's left) in charge.

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I loved Tyrion and Jaime, and Arya and Sandor, and uh... The Mountain and Qyburn. Good closure to those character relationship arcs. Was meh on Varys, and Cleganebowl was just okay. I imagined a lot better. Arya had the best arc here. Everything else this episode I pretty much hated. “The Long Night” was better. “The Last of the Starks” was better.

 

If they were doing Mad Queen Danaerys they did really a terrible job. Why couldn’t they have done ten episodes for each of the last two seasons? Given that time they could have done an actual arc where this happens. But this was a huge letdown after “The Last of the Starks” actually gave me a bit of hope this might be better. Now I have pretty little hope about the last episode.

 

Yavar

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I found that pretty poignant and affecting actually.  It was a hopeless situation and they were probably dead no matter what.  Like, it felt very purposeful to me, that minor story beat.

 

I sound like a defender of this episode, when I'm really not, it was mostly bad.  But that whole section after Arya leaves Sandor was very well-done, even if ultimately in service of rushed clumsy storytelling.

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It was a smart tactical call!  There was nowhere safe in the city - the only safe place was out!  For all we know, a giant rock fell on that building, or it got cooked. 

 

It seems like most of you here seem to be most grouchy about execution, but people on Twitter at least are very grumpy about the very idea of Mad Queen Dany. " The showrunners screwed it up, she would never, etc!"  And while it didn't seem like a bonkers sudden heel turn to me, I can see where people are coming from when they say that the show rushed it, mismanaged it, etc.  But bad news - Martin told them in broad strokes where he is going with the story, so if he ever puts out books 6-7, those people should prepare to again come to terms with a) Dany going bad, and b) their theories being wrong.

 

The Twitter stuff is almost TLJ-level in like "pissy because it's not what I wanted"

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It was definitely the execution of these various elements that felt silly and rushed and unintentionally comical.  I agree that her tyrannical hatred of being questioned and her temper have been set up for years.  She always had a penchant for cruelty against people who didn't immediately bow down before her.

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5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Yeah, Dany going bad has been a long time coming. Why it caught people unawares is beyond me.

 

Its not that it caught me at unawares, its that it didn't.

 

Compare it to Breaking Bad, when you suddenly realize Walt is a monster. And that happened at different times for most.

 

The change is subtle, gradual. With Daenerys its not, and you're not the one who suddenly realises the change, its forced upon you by the showrunners.

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Like I said, I'm not saying its brilliant storytelling by any means. But some people are reacting as though it was a twist on the part of the most recent episode.

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It was cemented in the previous episode. Without the benefit of a well thought out set-up for it.

 

In S8 she has the same problem Anakin had in the Prequels. Are we supposed to root for her? Not root for her? Is she the final big bad? The tragic hero?

 

I dunno.

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Varys repeated a line from an earlier season at the beginning about when a Targaryen is born it's like a coin flip if they'll be sadistic and crazy.  But boiling that down to a specific moment for Daenerys where it actually feels like a coin flip (the bells) whether she'll go on a rage-filled massacre or not felt so simplistic and silly, instead of like the culmination of a well set-up character arc.  Bad, bad storytelling.

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4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Varys repeated a line from an earlier season at the beginning about when a Targaryen is born it's like a coin flip if they'll be sadistic and crazy.  But boiling that down to a specific moment for Daenerys where it actually feels like a coin flip (the bells) whether she'll go on a rage-filled massacre or not felt so simplistic and silly, instead of like the culmination of a well set-up character arc.  Bad, bad storytelling.

 

Preach it!

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Jaime: I never cared about the innocent.

Also Jaime: Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men women and children were burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?"

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7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It was cemented in the previous episode. Without the benefit of a well thought out set-up for it.

 

In S8 she has the same problem Anakin had in the Prequels. Are we supposed to root for her? Not root for her? Is she the final big bad? The tragic hero?

 

It was cemented last season, when you see her fervor: "I was born to rule the seven kingdoms, and I will." The willingness to do anything to achieve it was there, so I can't say there isn't a setup.

 

Ideally, with a tragic hero, you're supposed to root for him/her, but only up a point.

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There's quite a big fucking jump from "I will rule" to "let's burn thousands of innocent civilians alive after they surrendered, for no goddamn reason".

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My biggest disappointment with the episode was the handling of Jaime and Cersei, two huge characters killed off without any big, drawn out show-stopping way. All Cersei has this episode are reaction shots. No confrontation. Nothing.

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5 minutes ago, Jay said:

but the execution of it was just terrible.  Like wouldn't her and The Hound had that conversation during their ride, not after sneaking into The Red Keep through a city under magical siege?

I thought about that, too, but the convo and decision came up because Dany was destroying the Keep while they were in it, the circumstances were unexpected.

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As with many storylines this year, sometime the end results isn't necessarily a bad one, it's just that they happen within seconds or minutes of screentime, instead of them being multi-episode threads that slowly build toward the end result.

 

Like I can imagine Varys turning on Daenerys and being discovered and burned being a perfectly fine plot line if it took half a season or so to play out.  Speaking of that... was he having that kid try to poison Daenerys in the beginning?  And who was he writing to?  And does Danerys really run her castle in a way that people can send ravens out without someone to oversee their content?

 

Back to Arya, her decision to NOT kill Cersei after getting so close also could have been fine if we had spent a lot more time since her return from Braavos and reuniting with her family, if we actually got to have goo scenes speckled throughout where she talks about her drive and motivations and others talk about their concern for her, and if the Hound and her had multiple longer conversations about revenge and what it does to you, etc.  Instead we just got two random beats of her and Gendry having a fling and then a single, short conversation with The Hound and that's that!

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It's clear now that there is no possible way Danereys is not dying in the final episode, and I can't imagine the writers having anyone but Jon being the one to do it, unless they want to subvert our expectations again and have Deus Ex Arya do the deed again

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17 minutes ago, Alex said:

“Okay Lena, we know you play one of the most important and most developed characters on show, but this season you’ll just be smirking, drinking wine and looking out over Kings Landing”

 

Did she literally get 10 lines of dialog this season? Couldn't have been above 2-3 pages of dialog total. For the supposed big baddie. She has precious little to do.

 

 
 
1
23 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

- Arya forcing a woman and child against their will to leave the safety of a building that they, and tens of people seem to be surviving fine in, and then 10 seconds later they die...

 

- Arya choosing to give up the 'revenge life' after the Hound said don't do it cause it's not good...

 

- Arya finding a perfectly calm and untouched horse to escape on...

 

Literally the entire episode I am waiting for Arya to do anything. Literally anything. I was like - she could have stayed in the North. She is not serving any purpose here at all. And then I thought as a story-writer, they just wanted a named character to experience this supposed tragedy. So transparent.

 

And literally 2 mins later in the behind the scenes, the makers admit, "You know who actually gives a single fuck about the people of King's Landing of all things. NOBODY! So for the forced carnage to make any sense at all, let's throw in a character that the audience actually likes to showcase the sense of tragedy. Otherwise its a bunch of extras running around."

 

Even they admit that their big plot point - Dany is bad because she killed all these people - is undercut by them themselves saying nobody gives a fuck about said people.

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3 minutes ago, Jay said:

As with many storylines this year, sometime the end results isn't necessarily a bad one, it's just that they happen within seconds or minutes of screentime, instead of them being multi-episode threads that slowly build toward the end result.

 

This is it, basically. Ever since S7 they have crammed about 4 seasons of plot into 2 short seasons, while skimming on character development.

 

Everything is driven by plot now.

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11 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I'll point out the major problem with this show - it is at this point completely transparent. Stories are constructions created by the author. The interest in stories is almost like those in magic tricks, you go through the story and then you admire the construction and the design and how it was put together. You also appreciate the internal logic - the glue that holds it all together. With this season, we can see the machinery inside, the wheels turning, the entire artifice is laid bare. This show has ceased to be about the choices that the characters will make. It is now all about the choices that the writers will make.

 

And this lends a degree of arbitrariness to the story that makes it completely meaningless. There are no stakes, no meaning, no nothing here because basically anything can happen. History does not matter, precedent doesn't matter, character logic, logic itself. The only thing that matters is whatever the hell the writers want to do.

 

The episode was fine for what it was - a big-budget spectacle. Almost like a disaster movie. But felt completely empty. There is no order here, no grand design. Only chaos. If that was the ultimate goal of the writers - to tell the audience that there is only ever chaos in life, it could have been done in a much more powerful and existential way rather than the pointless bloodletting of this final season.

 

Woah, this is spot on, especially the parts I bolded.

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52 minutes ago, mstrox said:

The Twitter stuff is almost TLJ-level in like "pissy because it's not what I wanted" 

 

Basically this.

 

On 5/10/2019 at 10:06 PM, Docteur Qui said:

The old adage of "No-one hates Star Wars more than fans of Star Wars" is very, very much in play here. 

 

And this.

 

Season 8 is not without its flaws but the level of vitriol being thrown around here is ridiculous. It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended.

 

Does that mean I wouldn't have preferred season 8 was a couple of episodes longer and had more room to breathe? Of course not, but it is what it is. Personally I've found the compression has heightened the drama, knowing that something overtly dramatic could happen without notice (like the iron fleet ambush last week), but I also understand why people take narrative issue with it. But I'm not going to suddenly hate on everything about the show and pick apart every plot point to within an inch of its life, just like those toxic Star Wars "fans" since TLJ  (remember how everyone despised the prequels but now they're apparently masterpieces and the new films are cinematic abominations?)

 

My recommendation is just enjoy this for what it is. If you build your expectations up to unreasonable levels, it's inevitably going to disappoint. This episode was a brilliant spectacle and had me clutching the edge of my seat. The downfall of Dany, succumbing to Targaryen madness, was tragic to behold. And in true Stark fashion, Jon's stubborn insistence on honour above making the tough decisions, was directly responsible for great suffering.

 

Looking forward to seeing how everything wraps up next week. Seeing as some posters are now openly discussing that they've read final episode spoilers, I doubt I'll bother venturing into this thread from now on.

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8 hours ago, Holko said:

I'll give it this: this episode looked and was staged damn well for the most part. It went back to at least showing the "what?" well while completely skimping on the "why?".

 

I agree with that; Miguel Sapochnik's directing was good in my opinion.  The script is, of course, the issue.

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

Why are they only bringing citizens in on the morning of the siege?

 

I didn't get that either; didn't they mention last week that she had brought everyone inside already to be human shields?

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

How come now the Iron Fleet only has one single scorpion? Last episode they were shooting like 20 arrows at the dragons at once before having to reload, now only Euron has one? ANd why is Dany only torching them now instead of last episode?

 

GREAT questions.

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

Sandor and Arya was touching, at least the Hound gets fine closure.

 

They make him state out loud that he realizes revenge is a bad thing, then rushes to enact it anyway, and that's closure?  Proper closure would have been giving up on fighting his brother, and going WITH Arya to help her, and dying was sacrificing himself to let her live.

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

Quiburn's death was great and satisfying!

 

I agree with that!

 

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

What was the point of Arya becoming a Faceless Man again beside growing her plot armor?

 

I thought so too!  When Qyburn showed up in her room, I was like "oh!  That's really Arya in disguise!"  Nope.  Then when she was alone and Jaime found her, I was like "Oh! That's really Arya in disguise!"  Nope.  You are left wandering what her plan was to try to kill Cersei, and we're all still left somewhat confused about how her magic powers really work.  It's the same thing as Bran really, the writers gave them massive powers that could theoretically enable them to take over the world if they wanted, but they actually really do nothing with them.

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1 minute ago, crumbs said:

It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended.

 

That's probably the case. But its all about execution. And the way its done on the show is...sloppy. it feels random.

 

Watch Better Call Saul for a modern show that does this sorta thing right. I can't predict what will happen next season, because the show is so character driven and well written. With GoT I can't predict who will sit on the Iron Throne next week, because it no longer makes any difference.

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6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Basically this.

 

 

And this.

 

Season 8 is not without its flaws but the level of vitriol being thrown around here is ridiculous. It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended.

 

Does that mean I wouldn't have preferred season 8 was a couple of episodes longer and had more room to breathe? Of course not, but it is what it is. Personally I've found the compression has heightened the drama, knowing that something overtly dramatic could happen without notice (like the iron fleet ambush last week), but I also understand why people take narrative issue with it. But I'm not going to suddenly hate on everything about the show and pick apart every plot point to within an inch of its life, just like those toxic Star Wars "fans" since TLJ  (remember how everyone despised the prequels but now they're apparently masterpieces and the new films are cinematic abominations?)

 

My recommendation is just enjoy this for what it is. If you build your expectations up to unreasonable levels, it's inevitably going to disappoint. This episode was a brilliant spectacle and had me clutching the edge of my seat. The downfall of Dany, succumbing to Targaryen madness, was tragic to behold. And in true Stark fashion, Jon's stubborn insistence on honour above making the tough decisions, was directly responsible for great suffering.

 

Looking forward to seeing how everything wraps up next week. Seeing as some posters are now openly discussing that they've read final episode spoilers, I doubt I'll bother venturing into this thread from now on.

 

Crumbs, come on.  You must be reacting to elsewhere on the internet, because in this thread, while we clearly don't like it and you did, I don't see any TLJ style "fan theory" backlash idiocy.  We're intelligently discussing why we thought the episode was badly executed.  Just because you're enjoying it for what it is, why do you feel the need to tell us all our reactions are not just wrong, but invalid or something?  Nothing toxic in this thread.

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5 minutes ago, Jay said:
Quote

Sandor and Arya was touching, at least the Hound gets fine closure.

 

They make him state out loud that he realizes revenge is a bad thing, then rushes to enact it anyway, and that's closure?  Proper closure would have been giving up on fighting his brother, and going WITH Arya to help her, and dying was sacrificing himself to let her live.

Well by satisfying closure I meant he wasn't completely ruined like others. He actually took active measures in saving Arya's life and sanity, having no actual stakes (bounty on her head, promise of reward) apart from liking her.

 

6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended.

 

THat is exactly what they did, they were just too lazy and burnt out to flesh them out and fill them in.

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Mad Dany wasn't as problematic for me, it was inevitable. And with better execution, could have actually been quite tragic. Something about the awfully reductionist take of all these characters in this episode really rubbed me the wrong way though. We've spent 8 seasons investing in these characters with almost painfully nuanced narrative material, and it was almost comical to see them reduced to caricatures of themselves. The Hound spends 20min fighting the Mountain, Jaime runs to Cersei again, Cersei cries about her child, Jon makes mopey faces at suffering...aside from Arya's change of direction (which itself was executed clumsily), everyone became one-liners. So all these seasons just feel so redundant.

 

Also, I don't think the siege had much of a dramatic arc at all after the "coin-flip" moment. Poorly put together in my opinion, with too many convenient cuts.

 

Clarke had her best performance in a while though. I really felt her conviction, before she became a CG dot in the sky, of course.

 

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1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Watch Better Call Saul for a modern show that does this sorta thing right. I can't predict what will happen next season, because the show is so character driven and well written. With GoT I can't predict who will sit on the Iron Throne next week, because it no longer makes any difference. 

 

I do watch BCS but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. That show has a very small handful of main characters (especially following

Spoiler

Chuck's death

) you're meant to follow, and essentially you know the ending courtesy of BB.

 

GOT is a sprawling medieval epic with dozens of characters, multiple houses, a vast history of story that we're only given fragments of throughout the show. It's no easy feat adapting into a 10-episode-per-season series (much less with the reduced episodes of seasons 7 and 8).

 

Again, I do think the reduced episode count and accelerated timeline has probably not helped, overall, creating an impression that events are happening too quickly or without sufficient foreshadowing/setup.

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23 hours ago, Holko said:

Jaime: I never cared about the innocent.

Also Jaime: Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men women and children were burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?"

 

Haha, great point!

 

23 hours ago, Chen G. said:

It was cemented last season, when you see her fervor: "I was born to rule the seven kingdoms, and I will." The willingness to do anything to achieve it was there, so I can't say there isn't a setup.

 

Ideally, with a tragic hero, you're supposed to root for him/her, but only up a point.

 

Right...

 

23 hours ago, Holko said:

There's quite a big fucking jump from "I will rule" to "let's burn thousands of innocent civilians alive after they surrendered, for no goddamn reason".

 

Exactly!  So very true.  How disappointing...

 

 

23 hours ago, Arpy said:

My biggest disappointment with the episode was the handling of Jaime and Cersei, two huge characters killed off without any big, drawn out show-stopping way. All Cersei has this episode are reaction shots. No confrontation. Nothing.

 

Yea, big let down.  If this was all they were gonna do with her this year, they should have had Dany take over King's Landing first LAST season, have her still be "good", then this season at the battle of Winterfell they actually lose and retreat to King's Landing, then now at the final hour they finally defeat the Night King, but then after he's dead, Dany finally goes mad and burns innocent civilians anyway.  Something that would have made more sense than how the ended up handling the final two seasons.

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3 minutes ago, KK said:

Clarke had her best performance in a while though. I really felt her conviction, before she became a CG dot in the sky, of course.

 

Yes, she's doing excellent work as Mad Queen Dany, and now they barely show her.

 

How many reaction shots did we have of her once the bell started tolling?

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I don't believe we saw Clarke again after she turned, she was only just a cgi blip on a cgi dragon after that.  Which is why I was so surprised the episode didn't end with her sitting on the iron throne as ashes fell.

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