Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[crumbs 14,313]

Is it weird that Spielberg didn't even seem to know what story Disney's IJ story group had been developing for the last few years?

 

I'm sure I read that in a recent interview when he was asked about the story. I guess he's just not that focused on the film at the moment.

[Jay 37,353]

The screenwriter of Indiana Jones 5 says George Lucas is not involved

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yeah I saw that earlier. I'd rather have George write the screenplay by himself while high out of his mind than Koepp.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Agreed. Koepp should be allowed nowhere near this franchise ever again. 

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Scary.

 

GL had good story ideas.

 

Koepp alone....eek.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Koepp has too many friends in Hollywood.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

He's a mediocrity. The Ron Howard of screenwriters.

[Giftheck 916]

That's contrary to what Spielberg said, isn't it? Spielberg said before that Lucas was executive-producing, and that he wouldn't do it without Lucas involved.

[Will 2,215]

7 hours ago, Jay said:

The screenwriter of Indiana Jones 5 says George Lucas is not involved

 

What?!

 

Hope he's just misinformed. We need the whole gang back together one last time -- GL, Spielberg, and JW!

[crumbs 14,313]

That's a concerning interview from Koepp. Obviously he can't say why he really thinks Indy 4 didn't work (if he wants to work again in Hollywood) but most of that film's shortcomings came from his script, not the choice in Macguffin. There's really no reason such a fertile subject couldn't have resulted in a perfectly compelling archaeological movie with a science-fiction twist.

 

Notwithstanding the excess of awful story moments he was likely forced to include, it doesn't excuse his painfully stilted dialogue, uneven pacing (the dearth of forward momentum between the college chase and the jungle chase) and the total lack of basic setup/payoff for characters (let's have Mutt bring his motorcycle on the plane with him to Peru, then never see it again!)

 

The choice of Macguffin was the least of Indy 4's problems, though any writer would have struggled combining the laundry list of haphazard ideas Spielberg/Lucas forced him to retain from thirty previous scripts by five different writers.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

Quote

"All I can say is that there’s lots of aliens and Indy dies at the end (laughs). Lots of hiding in lead-lined refrigerators, aliens, and he dies. Should go over very well.”

 

Given this quote, Koepp seems to be partially tuned into the criticism of the fourth film and aware of what stuff people found kinda silly about it, so that's at least nice to know. 

 

52 minutes ago, Will said:

 

What?!

 

Hope he's just misinformed. We need the whole gang back together one last time -- GL, Spielberg, and JW!

 

 

 

While Lucas may have nothing to do with the story, it's very possibly he'll have a recurring on-set presence, which would be nice. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I wish this series would go back to being just a trilogy and a ride at Disneyland.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,520]

Didn't Spielberg say that he would not do IJ5 without Lucas?

[Bilbo 3,709]

I have absolutely no interest in another IJ movie. Not even with a Williams score. 

[crumbs 14,313]

It's interesting Koepp seems to have next October penciled in as a possible shooting date. I can't imagine they'll start rolling until early 2018.

 

Article also confirmed RPO principal photography has wrapped and KOEM starts early next year, so Williams should start scoring RPO in November.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

5 hours ago, Will said:

Hope he's just misinformed. We need the whole gang back together one last time -- GL, Spielberg, and JW!

 

That's the last thing we need!

[Quintus 5,399]

“It’s hard because you can learn like if something maybe didn’t work as well as you think it would well we certainly wouldn’t do that again, but you wouldn’t have done that again anyway, you already did it, so it’s hard to say."

 

 

Fin

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

KOTS has one good scene,  with Ford & Broadbent in Indy's house. That's it. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The warehouse scene is good, as is the academe chase. And I like the nuke town scene.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I only really like two tracks from KotCS, which are Temple Ruins and The Departure. For some reason those are standout cues from the score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Neither are as good as Temple Of Doom (OST)!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Damn right!

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

The warehouse scene is good, as is the academe chase.

I agree that those two scenes are the best among a bunch of other really bad scenes. I was actually going to mention them as OK but then remembered the cringe worthy moments in both and decided better of it. 

 

The less said about anything that happens after Indy escapes from the warehouse the better.

[mrbellamy 6,286]

There are warning signs from the beginning and most of the first hour is pretty lame, but I don't think the film truly starts falling apart and becoming an Indiana Jones parody until the jungle. The quicksand scene was when I finally gave up on it being any good. That was the moment when I felt like I was watching an elaborately bad SNL sketch, complete with the stagey jungle set.

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Wait: which picture is from Indy 5 and which is the SNL one?

[mrbellamy 6,286]

The bottom is from Indy 4. The top is from a Shia LaBeouf performance art piece called "Who's Your Daddy?"

 

This is from Indy 5, Mutt Williams in action.

 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I really don't think Indy 4 was a good film. The aliens by themselves guaranteed it wouldn't live up to its potential.

But I'm still grateful that it wasn't as bad as the original Saucer Men from Mars script would have made it.

So basically.... It is pretty bad. But could have very easily been even worse.

 

Of course it SHOULD have been better.

Seriously, how hard can it be to make a general fun archaeological adventure film with some limited supernatural elements for the finale?

But they've got one more chance. Hopefully they'll make it count!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I love the jungle chase.

 

 

[Will 2,215]

23 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

 

While Lucas may have nothing to do with the story, it's very possibly he'll have a recurring on-set presence, which would be nice. 

 

I don't know ... he seems to like lots of control or else he doesn't want to be involved. Although I guess he could be an on-set consultant of sorts, you're right. 

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12 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

There are warning signs from the beginning and most of the first hour is pretty lame, but I don't think the film truly starts falling apart and becoming an Indiana Jones parody until the jungle. The quicksand scene was when I finally gave up on it being any good. That was the moment when I felt like I was watching an elaborately bad SNL sketch, complete with the stagey jungle set.

 

That jungle soundstage was atrociously lit. What the hell was Kaminski thinking? Was he intentionally making it look fake, as part of the whole "1950s B-Movie" feel??

 

He did a great job with soundstage jungles in The Lost World, not sure what went wrong here.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I'm sure Lucas can have a lot of good ideas. But also bad ones.

Aliens for Indy was a definite bad one right from the start, so I'm not sure I'd trust him to come up with a better idea now.

 

One scene that I thought would be interesting is Indy for whatever reason going into Soviet Russia.

Show us some period Moscow and then maybe a chase of some kind in a snowy area.

That should give plenty of opportunity for some cool visuals and for the Russians to appear as a serious threat this time.

[crocodile 8,010]

I understand the impulse to try and find something different and the genres a bit. They've done it with previous films. This isn't a bad idea in itself. Just needs a better script around it. 

 

Karol

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

8 hours ago, crocodile said:

I understand the impulse to try and find something different and the genres a bit. They've done it with previous films. This isn't a bad idea in itself. Just needs a better script around it. 

 

It is a bad idea in itself, and not every impulse should be acted on.

 

There is not a script that has been written, is being written, or will be written that can successfully and credibly combine Indiana Jones and aliens.  It is an impossibility, both practical and theoretical.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Indeed the Indiana Jones "genre" is pretty well-defined.

There are certain boxes to be ticked, such as archeology, adventure, action, some evil bad guys and a slight mystical/supernatural/religious element.

While science-fiction CAN go together with those elements, it takes a special kind of setting for that to make sense.

An example would be Stargate, which is based on the "ancient astronaut" theory to begin with.

 

An example would NOT be Indiana Jones, because it doesn't fit well with the "mystical/supernatural/religious" element of the earlier films.

If aliens are a thing for Indy, then that poses the question if all other weird stuff he encountered was also aliens.

Was the Ark, for example, an alien artefact? That doesn't strike me as being a particularly sensitive question to ask.

But the KotCS film does make you wonder about just that, especially since the Ark was shown being inside Area 51 of all places!

 

I understand the logic behind "50s = sci-fi, so let's throw Indy into that", but I cannot ever agree with that being a good idea.

That idea is based on the assumption that "Indy is a character you can throw at whatever period-appropriate genre you want".

As opposed to "Indy is a character who inhabits the world as shown in the prior films".

 

That being said, at least it didn't end up as a full-scale alien-invasion movie and at least tried to make it an "ancient astronaut" logic.

If you are going to do "aliens + Indiana Jones", then that is the only appropriate course available. But that still doesn't make it a good idea.

 

I'm not saying this is the only flaw with the film, though it is definitely a very deep-rooted one that no matter how well the execution could never have been fully overcome.

In other words: They could have easily made a better film with the concept they had.

But they could never have made a truly excellent film that was also a true Indiana Jones film with that concept.

At best, they might have been able to make a good film that happens to have a character named Indiana Jones in it.

 

On the other hand, I could see a "film noir" element working quite well in combination with the Indiana Jones character.

But aliens (or inter-dimensional beings) and/or science-fiction? No, never.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,520]

With KOTCS, it's usually the quieter, more reflective scenes (the aforementioned Ford/Broadbent; Indy and Marion in the back of the truck) that have the biggest emotional impact.

Once you lock-in to the fact that it is not Indy's film (and, therefore, not an Indiana Jones film in the strictist sense) it's quite enjoyable.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Fair enough. Truth be told, I do find it to be relatively enjoyable.

As long as I manage to ignore the bad and as long as I don't try to consider it a genuine Indiana Jones film.

It basically is a film with a guy named Indiana Jones in it. And taken as that, it is at least serviceable.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

On 10/24/2016 at 10:16 PM, Will said:

 

What?!

 

Hope he's just misinformed. We need the whole gang back together one last time -- GL, Spielberg, and JW!

No.

[crumbs 14,313]

Does anyone else think they'll jettison Marion/Mutt from this storyline? Koepp mentioned the story being "streamlined" which, to me, screams 'no baggage'. Forcing any old characters just seems like baggage to me.

 

And it would be really nice if they'd refrain from the cliched formula of starting every story with Indy teaching at his college, leading into a lengthy exposition scene explaining the MacGuffin. TOD really showed that you can start these films in radically different settings, forcing Spielberg and the writers to be more creative about their storytelling.

[Skelly 261]

I wonder if they'll take a leaf out of the "Old Indiana Jones Chronicles", and feature old Indy as a nut who attacks doughnut shop workers and proceeds to tell tales of his youth.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQRbrFHu55E&t=3m16s

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

2 minutes ago, Skelly said:

I wonder if they'll take a leaf out of the "Old Indiana Jones Chronicles", and feature old Indy as a nut who attacks doughnut shop workers and proceeds to tell tales of his youth.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQRbrFHu55E&t=3m16s

 

 

I'd like to see a continuation of the Saxophone of Doom myself.

 

 

[crumbs 14,313]

Is Vietnam too controversial as the main setting for an Indiana Jones film, given Spielberg's become a bit risk-averse with the series? We know he loves infusing real history into the era of Indy films, whether Nazis, WW2, the Nuclear Age or the Cold War. The 60's are fertile territory with significant historical events. They could fudge the timeline and have the film's teaser in '62 during the Cuban Missile Crisis (maybe the Russians were pursuing an artifact in Cuba?)

 

But the obvious settings/events they can use as a starting point:

• The Vietnam War
• The Space Race/Moon Landing
• Cuban Missile Crisis
• Kennedy Assassination
• Richard Nixon Elected
• Martin Luther King and Civil Rights
• Hippies, Flower Power and the Smiley Face (this is a shoe-in, Indy will have a scene with some hippies)
• The Beatles, Rolling Stones and Rock & Roll (for their source music flavouring, ala Elvis in KOTCS)

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Vietnamese, I hate these guys 

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

I think this entry is going to be quite a bit more interesting than KOTCS if solely just for the fact that the time period is more interesting. I think it becomes tougher to adapt Indy into this time period.  With, like Crumbs mentioned, the Vietnam War and such going on, things are significantly less black and white than they used to be. The pro-America sentiments that adorned films like Raiders can't as easily be sprinkled in now. Would be fun to perhaps play around with the idea of Indy becoming perhaps a bit of an antique of his own within the time he is living. 

I'm a bit concerned that, even if the stars do align, Spielberg has become a bit too much of a well-oiled film factory to allow for another great Indy film to happen. With everything seemingly being so planned and staged, his films display an immense amount of craftsmanship, but most have been lacking that spark of old as of late, at least for me. 

You know that some Disney execs would kill to have Indy be able to go to China so as to get ahold of some of that Asian box office, but you've got that damn Communist Revolution seemingly holding that idea back.  I think this entry is going to be quite a bit more interesting than KOTCS if solely just for the fact that I think it becomes a bit tougher to adapt Indy into this time period. 

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22 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

You know that some Disney execs would kill to have Indy be able to go to China so as to get ahold of some of that Asian box office

 

Hadn't considered that, somehow don't think Spielberg would want to shoot in China though. But he's clearly open-minded to using the Chinese market, judging by the Transformers films, so who knows.

 

Certainly has some fantastic story potential, but I think America in the '60s is the most interesting setting for this film (and it reiterates how flawed it was to set so much of KOTCS in the US and some random South American jungle -- the snowy landscapes of Soviet Russia were an obvious missed opportunity).

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

We already had an Indiana Jones set in China for the opening scene. Maybe it wasn't the best one, but it was my favorite one. Indy killed so many guys, including hanging that one fucker who tried strangling him from a ceiling fan with his whip. He punched a serving lady in the face, he had one of the greatest sidekicks of all time and he swung into a mine cart while the Raiders March magnificently reminded us all that this guy was the coolest mother fucker around.

 

That's how I want Indy to be. Either that or River Phoenix with amazing hair. Not some old jackass.

[Incanus 5,714]

This is what I want from my next Indy film. Indy and his trusty sidekick, Crystal the Demonic Skull saving the senior day care centre.

 

Tagline: "Let's Roll!"

 

[Quintus 5,399]

3 hours ago, Skelly said:

I wonder if they'll take a leaf out of the "Old Indiana Jones Chronicles", and feature old Indy as a nut who attacks doughnut shop workers and proceeds to tell tales of his youth.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQRbrFHu55E&t=3m16s

 

Is this real? Please tell me it isn't.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

How much real historical events are needed in an Indiana Jones film?

I dare say the original ones had very little of that, apart from the "general nazi's as bad guys" thing.

 

Of course this became a big thing for the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles.

But that doesn't mean Indy 5 needs to put extra focus on that as well.

Maybe if it could add to the story; but it doesn't strike me as particularly important to have.

[crumbs 14,313]

4 hours ago, Selina Kyle said:

We already had an Indiana Jones set in China for the opening scene. Maybe it wasn't the best one, but it was my favorite one. Indy killed so many guys, including hanging that one fucker who tried strangling him from a ceiling fan with his whip. He punched a serving lady in the face, he had one of the greatest sidekicks of all time and he swung into a mine cart while the Raiders March magnificently reminded us all that this guy was the coolest mother fucker around.

 

That's how I want Indy to be. Either that or River Phoenix with amazing hair. Not some old jackass.

 

The way his character, and violence in general, was neutered in KOTCS is an abomination. RLM's Plinkett review really opened my eyes about how cynically produced the fourth film was, as if Spielberg was forced to take notes from focus groups about making the film as broadly appealing to families as possible. No gunshots, no blood, nobody killed by Indy (can't have him shoot anyone in this day and age) except that lame blowdart. The on-screen violence resembled a Loonie Tunes cartoon with laughably bad CGI deaths like the rocket sled fire, the nuke blowing up the car or Ivana turning into fairy dust.

 

Give me heads exploding, tanks blowing up with bodies flying everywhere, impalements through the chest with meat kebabs, hearts being ripped out of chests, men being sacrificed in rivers of lava, men being sucked into plane propellers and gigantic stone crushing machines, complete with blood spraying everywhere!