Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

 

6 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Remember JW said he had to score "a new ending"

 

Where there's smoke...

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/06/20/harrison-ford-admits-lucasfilm-reworked-ending-of-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-appears-to-confirm-leaks-james-mangold-previously-denied/

There's fire...

https://thatparkplace.com/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-director-james-mangold-confirms-he-originally-planned-a-different-ending-previously-denied-shooting-multiple-endings/

 

[HunterTech 994]

And yet what Mangold describes is nothing like what the rumors heavily insisted the original direction was. Hell, even the quote from Ford (who is way too far down the first article) only suggests the last scene proper being what they reworked, with not much implying that it was a considerable overhaul. So really, unless you can more definitively prove what the original shooting script had from someone who isn't fucking named DoomCock, then this will just remain a point of speculation.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

The point for me is not how much was overhauled or what, it's that reshoots/alternate endings were done/filmed when Mangold vehemently insisted none had, and had the temerity to call anyone saying the opposite a "troll". Not a good look. And I couldn't care less if one of the sources is named "DoomCock". Looks like he wasn't completely wrong.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

I don't need to read any of the internet rumours about reshoots. It's patently obvious to me watching the film that the ending was significantly changed, and it's my own impression that I'm 100% going on. Not only because it all flowed together horribly, was edited abysmally and felt completely disjointed, but also because none of it made a bit of f*cking sense.

 

Indy says he wants to stay in the past, Helena instead punches him in the face, knocks him out, takes him back to the future, then presumably takes him to the hospital to treat a gunshot wound (and blow to the head), somehow gets him back to NYC, where he wakes up in his crappy apartment...apparently still wanted for murder.

 

So James Mangold, who had years to think about how he'd end the character of Indiana Jones, one of the most celebrated characters in cinematic history comes up with...that? Does anyone really believe that's how it was originally written and shot? Really?  

 

Let's put it this way. If the ending wasn't drastically changed, then the whole final act was tragically misconceived from the start. Neither is a particularly good look. Either way, it makes Mangold look like what the French call les Incompétents.

 

 

 

[HunterTech 994]

I'll take incompletely conceived over completely overhauled because that matches the rest of the film more 

 

I do think the dots were there for the ending to really fit for the story being told. The issue is that Mangold got preoccupied with..... something, and hastily put the ending we ultimately see together so that whatever smidge of his conceived concept could come across.

 

He specifically mentions in the same interview how he really wanted the scene between Indy and Archimedes to have an emotional impact, yet the latter just stands there with no real reaction whatsoever. Combine that with the supposed intent to have Indy be back to his old glory by the end after the roughness of the journey, and Mangold has now officially inherited the same core flaw Zack Snyder's DCEU work had: too many ideas that are just not conveyed particularly well.

[JTN 2,009]

The person who thought that it would be a great (even funny?) idea/gag that a wounded old

man INDIANA JONES! is punched in the face and is literally knocked out by his own young goddaughter, should not be allowed in the movie business ever again. And “the great” James Mangold accepted this (maybe it was HIS idea), liked it, shot it and kept it in the final film. 
 

Has it occured to anyone that maybe, just maybe Indy, an archeologist professor for god’s sake, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, could have been CONVINCED to go back to the present, to start over with Marion, instead of humiliated like that? That’s plain bad, amateur movie making on the highest level. 

[Alex 2,835]

I am not particularly convinced by Mangold’s word-salady response to the “Indy still wanted for murder” issue.

I personally think the Mouse and the producers got involved. It just seems incredible that the guy who wrote Logan could willingly choose that ending. Maybe the pressure got to him.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

I'm inclined to believe the leaks that said more was supposed to happen back in Nazi Germany, and that the nonsense about "continental drift" and ending up in Syracuse was cooked up after the initial idea failed with test audiences—which was for Indy to meet his young self, who gets killed (presumably saving the day), and old Indy disappears, and Helena dons the fedora.

 

Mangold insisted that "nobody was replacing Indiana Jones." But that's from the same guy who said no alternate endings were shot. Excuse me if I doubt him.

 

I don't like the way he handled the PR—and dragged poor John Williams into it (!)—but I do feel bad for the guy. This was obviously a troubled production, and is probably much less Mangold's vision than a movie assembled by committee.

 

 

[Bellosh 3,418]

8 hours ago, JTW said:

The person who thought that it would be great (even funny?) idea/gag that a wounded old

man INDIANA JONES! is punched in the face and is literally knocked out by his own young goddaughter, should not be allowed in the movie business ever again. And “the great” James Mangold accepted this (maybe it was HIS idea), liked it, shot it and kept it in the final film. 
 

Has it occured to anyone that maybe, just maybe Indy, an archeologist professor for god’s sake, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, could have been CONVINCED to go back to the present, to start over with Marion, instead of humiliated like that? That’s plain bad, amateur movie making on the highest level. 

 

i believe you haven't seen the movie right?

 

so here's actually the worst thing about the punch, for a movie that supposedly has so many subtle moments...

 

Indy is punched in the airplane by Klaber right after Indy is yelling about Continental Drift.  I guess Helena's was the straw that broke the camel's back?  Joke of course, as Klaber was literal muscle in this film. Just another sloppy decision in the narrative.  edit: Klaber not Voller lol

 

Idk, take that as you will.

 

The film to me, isn't horrible, it isn't great, it just tries to be this deep take on the character but is hollow all the way through due to the fact it's ultimately a Disney film and these movies were never supposed to be 'taken' there.

[Bespin 8,481]

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

Indy didn't want to go home because he was enchanted by the past. Time was of the essence and there was no time for further attempts at convincing him (she had already tried and failed).

[Bellosh 3,418]

7 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

lol whoops i forgot.

 

but there's also like 4 active Indy threads now

[crocodile 8,012]

It might have not been a perfect ending but it was definitely better than the ending of KOTCS which said absolutely nothing at all about the character and made no attempt to create any dramatic conflict whatsoever. DOD handled some things clumsily, true, but at least it was going for "something". Anything.

 

My only real issue with the film is that by existing, very much like SW sequels, it makes the happy "riding into sunset" ending of the previous movies sort of meaningless. Same reason why sequels to romantic comedies never work. Who wants disappointment and drama after satisfying ending? I know real life works like that but I don't necessarily need it in my fairy tale world.

 

Karol

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

36 minutes ago, Bespin said:

If you haven't seen it by now, then you've lost your right to complain about spoilers. 
 

34 minutes ago, crocodile said:

It might have not been a perfect ending but it was definitely better than the ending of KOTCS which said absolutely nothing at all about the character and made no attempt to create any dramatic conflict whatsoever.

The "conflict" in KOTCS was definitely light and played more for laughs, coming from his being thrown back together with Marion and discovering they shared a son.

 

What's the conflict in DOD, a broken man forced on a last adventure? That might've worked if we'd seen him reinvigorated by the end, in spite of his troubles. But he's still a broken man in Syracuse, pleading to be left behind. But wait! In the very last shot he's shown enthusiastically grabbing his fedora off a clothesline...

 

"Indy's back, everyone!" Just a little late.
 

30 minutes ago, crocodile said:

it makes the happy "riding into sunset" ending of the previous movies sort of meaningless.

Agreed. I'll take a beaming Indy leaving the chapel arm in arm with Marion (followed by their son, alive and well) over the clothesline.

 

1 hour ago, crocodile said:

I know real life works like that but I don't necessarily need it in my fairy tale world.

Amen.

[HunterTech 994]

10 hours ago, JTW said:

Has it occured to anyone that maybe, just maybe Indy, an archeologist professor for god’s sake, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, could have been CONVINCED to go back to the present, to start over with Marion

 

This is precisely why I'm baffled when Mangold says he wanted the scene to have an emotional impact, because nothing about it is really making any sort of plea as to why Indy is this important figure to the time he came from. So easily could they have had Helena be very forward about how he greatly inspired her to pursue archeology (to drive the point that people will always be interested in the past despite how it might've appeared at the start of the movie), with Archimedes seeing parallels between him and Indy in that moment, deciding to tell him that he still has more worth in his field than he thinks.

 

Instead? The spirit of Disney manifested in Helena to drag Indy back for the sake of the status quo, despite no real plans for a VI.

 

4 hours ago, Alex said:

I am not particularly convinced by Mangold’s word-salady response to the “Indy still wanted for murder” issue.

 

 

This actually calls to a different issue I have with the film: too many details that are easy to miss because the film needs to keep going from set piece to set piece. The previous films did a pretty good job at conveying all the info that was required for the story, so it was never an issue over if anything didn't make sense. In DoD, too much stuff is said in moments that just pass by in a flash, making it feel like you're just lost as to what every piece actually signifies. This is particularly egregious with the Voller posse, whose connection to the CIA still doesn't entirely click. Same goes for Helena, who more feels like they accidentally left in character bits that they didn't pay off with some of the lines that she says. I really should not be thinking this much about the details when watching an Indy film.

 

3 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I'm inclined to believe the leaks that said more was supposed to happen back in Nazi Germany, and that the nonsense about "continental drift" and ending up in Syracuse was cooked up after the initial idea failed with test audiences—which was for Indy to meet his young self, who gets killed (presumably saving the day), and old Indy disappears, and Helena dons the fedora.

 

Mangold insisted that "nobody was replacing Indiana Jones." But that's from the same guy who said no alternate endings were shot. Excuse me if I doubt him.

 

I don't like the way he handled the PR—and dragged poor John Williams into it (!)—but I do feel bad for the guy. This was obviously a troubled production, and is probably much less Mangold's vision than a movie assembled by committee.

 

To be a bit more fair to the alleged premise, I did get the impression on the second watch that Helena's too vaguely defined motivation and character arc might've been deliberately done for the purposes of a follow up, since the Mouse obviously wants this IP to have something to latch onto after Ford steps down.

 

This still doesn't dispute the fact that there is no clear Scott Pilgrim esque leftovers for this supposed direction (since there's a fair amount of hints in regards to where the final climax is going to be throughout). Especially when we consider the never formally announced Disney+ spin off that got cancelled, which basically would've been Young IJ 2.0 from what we heard about it, which would be a very odd immediate spin off if the point was to follow a new hero after DoD potentially might've overhauled the series history.

 

I would love to know what the script writing process was for this, since Koepp retaining his credit from the Spielberg stage of production is certainly curious. Mostly just to know who came up with which ideas, since some definitely feel like they were mandated from early on in the production (you can't convince me they weren't always going to kill off Mutt).

[TolkienSS 407]

On 22/12/2023 at 6:57 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

It was never the plan to let Indy stay in the past. That would mean he ran away from his problems, unacceptably tainting his character. 

 

You really didn't get the memo of Hollywood completely revisioning and denucleating their IPs, like, 5 years and 50 movies ago?

 

Mangold himself confirmed just last week that an ending with Indy going back to 1938 was considered, to "face questions about his past". Quelle surprise.

Of course the movie was always made to reframe Indy's life, and one of the original endings did kill Indy, and was filmed, otherwise there didn't need to be an expensive reshot ending in an already ridiculous budget.

And there's otherwise no reason to have Indy shot shortly before the finale, because he doesn't do shit after that anyway.

 

With the story as is, there is literally only three endings that film can have: Indy dies, or he stays in the past, or he gets back with Marion. And we know the third was added last minute.

What you think the film could have ended with Indy returning to his miserable pension life, pouring a cup of instant coffee?

 

If some people, the few who watched this more than once, can't see that, even with the obvious recut to make it less obnoxious, that's just unfortunate.

 

And Indy did run away from his problems even in the finished version because he decided to stay. So what's your point anyway?

[HunterTech 994]

Okay, didn't we at least have some BTS pictures of stuff that didn't make it in The Rise of Skywalker? Hell, concept art even exists for what apparently was Spielberg's Indy V. I am legitimately asking for just some proof in regards to this ending that isn't Mangold describing ideas that don't immediately scream "kill and replace" (him lying be damned). 

 

I am not denying that this wasn't what they always envisioned the end of this movie to be. I am questioning as to why this is considered the only route the filmmakers and company were interested in pre-reshoots, given how unclear the movie as a whole is about a couple of the things it barely alludes to.

[JTN 2,009]

It says it all how many problems people have with DoD, how divisive it is, that it’s not a good IJ film. None of the other films in the series has these kinds of problems, not even Kingdom. It may be the weakest of the first four, but it didn’t deconstruct an already well established classic character and made him something he isn’t, and gave him a satisfactory ending that made people smile and feel joy. 
You don’t deconstruct Indiana Jones. It should be about escapism, not existential drama. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

2 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I am legitimately asking for just some proof in regards to this ending that isn't Mangold describing ideas that don't immediately scream "kill and replace" (him lying be damned).

It may come out in time. Or it may not. I'm not losing any sleep over it, but do enjoy speculating.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

It says it all how many problems people have with DoD, how divisive it is, that it’s not a good IJ film.

Mangold tried to give Indy the mirthless 'Logan' treatment, and it was a swing and a miss. Like I said, having Indy sad at the beginning wasn't a bad idea, but I wish he'd found his mojo along the way.

 

When Helena said: "Indiana Jones! Back in the saddle for one final triumph!," I was pumped. And when Sallah drove him to the airport and said he brought his passport to tag along, I was excited.

 

But Sallah didn't join him. And Indy was basically a reluctant participant for the whole movie—with only a few glimpses of him looking excited at making discoveries.

 

A rousing final adventure was not what we got. But hey, we got the grand statement that heroes can be in the dumps too.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

@HunterTech, I agree with some of the points you've made. Personally speaking, I'm not convinced the original ending as shot involved, as the rumours suggest, Helena "travelling through time 'replacing' Indy during all his iconic moments". Doesn't mean it wasn't shot that way, but other than internet rumours, there isn't any direct evidence to support that, as you correctly point out. Such a sequence would have been incredibly costly and complicated to shoot, and involved extensive and expensive effects work.

 

I am, however, absolutely convinced the ending we got was significantly changed from what was originally shot. Aside from how weirdly the whole sequence is cut together, and how poorly the entire thing just plays, as you also point out, there are things that happen earlier in the film that don't support the ending, plot wise and thematically.

 

I also personally think there was likely some version of the ending where Helena was directly set up to be Indy's "successor"...not in name, but at least as the protagonist (including wearing the hat) for future films in the franchise...that's Disney's modus operandi. And I think the internet chatter that such a thing was happening, and the negative feedback, may have caused LucasFilm to (correctly) rethink this. And in any event, if there ever was such an idea, it's surely joined the Star Wars graveyard of abandoned LucasFilm projects.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

5 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Helena "travelling through time 'replacing' Indy during all his iconic moments".

I can't believe that this was ever seriously considered. I mean, could you imagine the white-hot outrage from YouTubers? lol

[HunterTech 994]

I must admit that there's perhaps no other explanation for that really weird hat shot ending, since there's little about it that makes sense outside of the obvious meta textual framing. A good deal of difference from how KotCS does a similar thing in a much more sensible in-universe manner.

 

Same goes for Marion, which I reckon could've gotten away with them strangely reenacting Raiders if they actually had some sort of discussion prior in the film. Perhaps Indy gets compelled to write to her after a conversation to Helena (or phones her if that was possible then). Instead, I really am left wondering why everything is just suddenly resolved between the two after what would've been some really rough times in dealing with Mutt's passing.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

It's a tacked-on, band-aid of an ending if I ever saw one. Helena is also apparently a marriage counsellor, and was able to patch things up where he couldn't in no time at all.

[Faleel 5,347]

1 hour ago, HunterTech said:

Perhaps Indy gets compelled to write to her after a conversation to Helena

So reenacting Back to the Future?

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It's a tacked-on, band-aid of an ending if I ever saw one. Helena is also apparently a marriage counsellor, and was able to patch things up where he couldn't in no time at all.

 

If you want realism, watch Schindler's List.

[Tom 4,655]

At the end of the day, I don't care about whether there are reshoots or even hollywood idiots lying about it.  The fact is in this case, they shot a new ending.  Williams confirmed it, and they decided the best way forward was to call him a liar (or imply he was some sort of untrustworthy aged idiot).  That is what pisses me off. 

[HunterTech 994]

After the Rogue One and Solo debacles (to which Edwards still denies anything happened with the former, in spite of his "replacement" getting the Andor gig), I wouldn't be surprised if Lucasfilm applied extra pressure to maintain the facade that their productions have been smooth processes, even if it means letting blatant contradictions and people getting thrown under the bus through. Mangold can be given the okay to only say that he had a different concept in mind for the climax, but not for allowing JW's comments on the actual filming to be verified.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

If you want realism, watch Schindler's List.

I want competent filmmaking, so thanks for the suggestion. 

 

5 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Mangold can be given the okay to only say that he had a different concept in mind for the climax, but not for allowing JW's comments on the actual filming to be verified.

Imagine on the one hand saying you're a big fan of Williams, and on the other, taking to social media to embarrass him that way.

 

But Mangold put himself in that position by directly engaging the "trolls" and trying to silence them. We saw it with Rian Johnson too. Shows a lack of professionalism if you ask me. But it seems to be Disney's MO too to discredit anyone who tries to expose them.

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

4 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I want competent filmmaking, so thanks for the suggestion. 

 

Stop watching superhero movies then.

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Stop watching superhero movies then.

That's actually good advice these days!

[Edmilson 7,439]

Indeed. I used to love Marvel and DC movies, but ever since the pandemic I am getting my superhero fix out of reading a good comic book run or animated show (like Invincible) rather than from the very expensive and often tiresome movies.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned...

Anyone else see this ep of AMAZING STORIES?

The climactic time travel sequence is eerily similar to DOD!

 

[Faleel 5,347]

On 24/12/2023 at 10:13 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

 social media. a lack of professionalism.

Explains it all imo

[Mr. Hooper 1,781]

1 hour ago, Presto said:

Explains it all imo

Ain't that the truth.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

23 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Don't know if this has already been mentioned...

Anyone else see this ep of AMAZING STORIES?

The climactic time travel sequence is eerily similar to DOD!

 

Oh... thought this revival was a fluke, pandemic memories. 

[Edmilson 7,439]

Report: Disney Lost Over $100 Million on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

 

I guess this is the new normal for Disney/LFL: flop after flop.