Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Wycket 36]

A good team of writers would have written one or two scripts by now. The McGuffin is... well a McGuffin. It isn't really that important.

A good team of writers? Ugh, scripting by committee is always a baaaad idea.

Not necessarily, and many scripts come to mind. But all right. A good writer then. Hypothetically speaking, who would we choose?

I wouldn't mind Stephen Moffat. He just worked on Tintin with Spielberg so they have a connection. Plus Moffat can put out a script fast enough to get things moving quickly.

[Brónach 1,301]

I was thinking on him too, he can write fun adventure. Problem is, he's very busy today. But I think he would have been PERFECT for Indy 4.

[Demondm810 398]

Spielberg, Lucas, and Ford should all donate a portion of their salaries and gross percentages to get Larry Kasdan to write Indy V

[Faleel 5,337]

Spielberg, Lucas, and Ford should all donate a portion of their salaries and gross percentages to get Larry Kasdan to write Indy V

I was going to post the same pick

[Wojo 2,453]

If only this could have stayed The End...

[Brónach 1,301]

That shot is amazing.

[Datameister 2,037]

Amazingly long, at least...not really enough to make me forget the fact that Marcus Brody had to be used as so-called comic relief to get us there, though. KOTCS has its problems, and I can understand why many people wish they'd never returned to the franchise, but I'll say this much - if we just look at the endings, KOTCS is far better than TLC. And TOD. Fortunately, there's always Raiders to remind me of what a real Indiana Jones movie is like, but I digress.

[Henry B 50]

What!? I'd rather have Marcus as comic relief than Indy, Marion, Mutt, the aliens and every other character in that disgraceful excuse for an ending.

[Brónach 1,301]

Indy back at home in his wedding is not my idea for an great Indiana Jones ending.

[Datameister 2,037]

What!? I'd rather have Marcus as comic relief than Indy, Marion, Mutt, the aliens and every other character in that disgraceful excuse for an ending.

I'm not talking about the bizarre stuff with the aliens, I'm talking about the bit after they're back in the States, which corresponds roughly to everything after and including Marcus's cringe-inducing...moment. Maybe I'm just some strange flavor of hopeless romantic, but I was really happy to see Indy and Marion get married, and the final moment with Harrison taking the hat from Shia was very reassuring. TLC's ending just makes me uncomfortable, although it's obviously a better film overall.

I always get flack for saying stuff like this, but something went very wrong with the Indiana Jones franchise over 20 years before KOTCS. People talk about this stuff as if all three original films set the bar incredibly high and then KOTCS was just a completely irredeemable failure, but for me, there's never been a real sequel to Raiders of the Lost Ark. If I want to watch an Indiana Jones movie, that's what I watch...the other three are just flawed adventure films starring Harrison Ford in a role that happens to share the same name.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Indy back at home in his wedding is not my idea for an great Indiana Jones ending.

Wedding and funeral scenes...stop it, George Lucas. They are such cliches. Indiana Jones ends with a very tacky wedding scene. All that can be salvaged is JW's music.

[Brónach 1,301]

I always get flack for saying stuff like this, but something went very wrong with the Indiana Jones franchise over 20 years before KOTCS. People talk about this stuff as if all three original films set the bar incredibly high and then KOTCS was just a completely irredeemable failure, but for me, there's never been a real sequel to Raiders of the Lost Ark. If I want to watch an Indiana Jones movie, that's what I watch...the other three are just flawed adventure films starring Harrison Ford in a role that happens to share the same name.

2 is a great film and 3 is a near masterpiece, and thank Spielberg because I didn't want the series to end witha merely great film.

Indy became a more central character in each film and I love that. In Raiders he's the protagonist of an adventure film. In Temple he's a famous character and we see both the heroic and the greedy side of him (with an amazing perfomance, by the way). In Last Crusade we finally get an emotional arch that could have been developed more in any of the previous two, specially Temple, but wasn't. Last Crusade also digs more in what he does, as he isn't now a man on a mission, or a man thrown casually in extraordinary circunstances. And so with Crusade, the circle is complete. They chose to paint the interior of the circle with a fourth film but they chose an ugly colour.

[indy4 155]

There are flaws in KotCS, but I don't think the aliens is one of them. I think that part worked really well.

[Brónach 1,301]

I loved the alien idea, but I didn't like the execution. The film never makes me believe in what I'm seeing.

[Datameister 2,037]

The aliens really threw me off at first, both the idea and the execution. I grew to somewhat appreciate the attempt at moving the mythology forward twenty years into UFO territory, but I don't think it worked for an Indy film, and although it may not be the film's deepest or most profound flaw, it's probably the one that still bothers me the most.

TOD is far from a great film for me...in fact, I think it's a terrible film with some wonderful elements (the score, the mine car chase, Short Round, the fact that it didn't simply rehash Raiders, etc.). I can't stand Willy, I don't care one bit about Indy...and on top of all that, despite its reputation, it's unfortunately not half as dark or intense as Raiders. They couldn't even get the mouldering corpses right. TLC is less offensively bad because it attempts to follow the Raiders model more closely, but that also makes it a little less interesting, and I would have preferred a film that had a more unique plot but returned to the feel of Raiders, which TLC certainly didn't. Instead, it's got this jovial, self-congratulatory sort of sense of humor that unfortunately contaminated the score a little, too. It works in some scenes and it really doesn't in others.

Basically, I love the serious tone, subtle-but-genuinely-funny humor, horrifying climax, engaging cinematography, and true sense of adventure in Raiders. I wish its sequels had taken the franchise in new and exciting directions without sacrificing the elements that made me love it in the first place.

[Brónach 1,301]

I see what you mean.

I see Crusade as the most different of the trilogy from Raiders.

The trilogy starts with an hommage: Raiders. And then trogh the following two films the filmakers try to make the world of this character more their own. We see an evolution that is trying to distil the core of Indiana Jones. Both the increase of dramatism and humor is a product of this. Crusade ended up being the more Spielbergian of the three.

[Datameister 2,037]

I think all three feel very Spielbergian, but in different ways. Raiders happens to do it in all the right ways for me. They didn't need to distill the core of Indiana Jones, because they already had it down perfectly. I love the homageyness. As for increasing the humor...I still find Raiders far funnier than any of its sequels.

I'm sure I probably sound like an irrational fanboy in all this, but this is simply how I've always felt. I was actually shocked when I first found people who so strongly disagreed.

[Demondm810 398]

I think Raiders and Temple of Doom are absolute perfection. I think the other two are slightly inferior because they try too hard to recapture Raiders' tone and style. I adore Temple of Doom because it's funnier, scarier, has more action and doesn't give a fuck Raiders exists.

[Datameister 2,037]

I adore Temple of Doom because it's funnier, scarier, has more action and doesn't give a fuck Raiders exists.

I adore Raiders because it's funnier, scarier, has better action, and makes it easier for me to not give a f*** TOD exists.

[Demondm810 398]

My sideshow premium format Mola Ram figure disagrees with you.

I keep it in my office. You should see clients' faces when they see that thing, not knowing what it is.

[Datameister 2,037]

The nightmares I had - or at least thought I would have - after watching Toht's face melt disagree with you! Try putting that image in your office!

[Brónach 1,301]

As a kid the thing that scared me the most was Donovan's death. Temple was chilling and fun. I started to appreciate Raiders later, and now it's my favourite.

I think all three feel very Spielbergian, but in different ways. Raiders happens to do it in all the right ways for me. They didn't need to distill the core of Indiana Jones, because they already had it down perfectly. I love the homageyness. As for increasing the humor...I still find Raiders far funnier than any of its sequels.

I'm sure I probably sound like an irrational fanboy in all this, but this is simply how I've always felt. I was actually shocked when I first found people who so strongly disagreed.

Actually I thought I was the one sounding like an irrational fanboy

[Datameister 2,037]

Donovan's death was pretty horrific, too. I saw that one a little later, I think.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was exposed (repeatedly) to the first third of Raiders long before I was exposed to the rest of the film and to its sequels, so I'm sure nostalgia is playing some role in this. But the differences are definitely there, as I'm sure none of us would deny, and I'm guessing my preference would just be a little less stark if I'd seen them all around the same time. Raiders simply doesn't have the qualities that annoy me in the films that followed.

[MissPadmé 17]

I love the first three, each one of them for what makes them in my eyes, stand out and great. But All the four films now have a special place in my heart. I see that the whiny/diva Willie should be a deviation from the heroic, though Marion - and I think Willie is executed great.

I am not the type of person who finds flaws in films. What they serve me is what I get and I take it for what it is, don't expect anything from anything..

Expectations make you weak and increase the chance to be dissapointed.

[Jay 37,287]

Joe I think you need to watch Temple Of Doom again, as an adult, with a totally open mind. Don't put any expectations on it, just enjoy it for what it is

[Datameister 2,037]

Oh, I've watched it plenty of times as an adult. (TLC, too.) And I have indeed been able to get better at enjoying it for what it is. I don't have the sky-high expectations I had the first time. But still, every time I watch it, I'm tempted to make a moment-by-moment list of all the things in that film that I think are terrible.

[Jay 37,287]

Then you're going in with the wrong attitude

[Wojo 2,453]

Eh, I know adults who still hate it. They can't get past the dinner sequence.

I had only seen it taped from a network TV broadcast until I got the DVD box set, so I never knew they actually showed Mr. Ram's hand enter the first victim's chest.

[Datameister 2,037]

Then you're going in with the wrong attitude

I don't go into it wanting to make that list...that's just the type of creativity the film inspires in me!

[Ollie 1,059]

For all its faults LC was a fitting end. KOTCS f***** everything up.

I'd rather see Ford do Witness 2.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I love the original Indys. KOTCS is a rustily thrown together mess, but much of it is watchable. You can just ignore it.

Temple is Indy's zany mine cart ride off the rails into hell, with offensiveness all around. Last Crusade is the heart and soul of the character. They're both pretty different from Raiders, but I think that was the point.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...

KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's not just Lucas who is bashed for KOTCS, though I will blame him right now for the poor CGI, which is completely uncharacteristic of Spielberg's films since Jurassic Park.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...

KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

Star Wars doesn't live and prosper. It's buried away in George Lucas' vault. The prequels may have been successful, but they're perfect examples of how not to make a film.

[Brónach 1,301]

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie.

I was seven and I don't even remember seeing it at the cinema. I do remember seeing the original trilogy on TV, and recording them and seeing them again like mad.

Star Wars is a kids saga. The great thing is that it was a huge fantasy live action saga for kids that treated its audience with a respect unheard of. Jar Jar, to me, is a poorly designed character. And he wasn't needed because the "darker" political plot wasn't needed in the first place, not to mention it makes no sense. And the presence of this in the film is a problem way more important than Jar Jar, who in the end it only serves a purpose of getting the Jedi to the underwater city and nothing else. Even if there was a reason the character is there, he's hardly developed. What do we know about him other than he is dumb?

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score.

Except many great "old fashioned" adventure films had great scripts and special effects.

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest.

We are not crying, we try to put the man in a different perspective from yours.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...

KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

everything that is wrong with Star Wars is wrong with this post.

Happy Birthday Raiders

[Ollie 1,059]

Star Wars isn't just a kids saga, it's something that many adults loved as well.

[Brónach 1,301]

Star Wars isn't just a kids saga, it's something that many adults loved as well.

I don't mean it as if it's only directed at kids, but that what it tells, and how it tells it, might have its greatest possible impact on that demographic.

[crocodile 7,984]

Back to the main topic... They're not going to make this one... are they?

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm disappointed they haven't made more of the 30th anniversary. Such a revolutionary film is deserving of celebration after all these decades.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...

KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

What a silly post. Most of the complaints on the last page were directed towards Indy 4 as a movie. Not specifically towards Lucas. And who brought Star Wars into this anyway? Huh.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Well nothing in this post is silly and you know that. See my post as the result of reading 2 years of prequel and indy4 bashing which bugged me all the time till i had to post about it in this random thread. You probably don't share my opinion Mr.Breathmask (which is ok)... but please respect mine

Yeah the prequels don't really belong into this thread but hey, i can't stand the constant critizism against Indy4 and the prequels. Most of it is unfounded or lies in the eye of the beholder.

Of course Starwars is for adults too but TPM just was specifically aimed at getting the children and the youth of 99 interested into the starwars universe. That's the reason for the disappointments of most adult fans... of course the prequels could have been done better but which movies are really perfect? Only very very few come close.

There is no denying that there were some serious mistakes made on Indy4 but they were minor in the big picture. My biggest gripes are the stupid vine swinging sequence and the three waterfall drops. I guess you watched Indy4 much more often than me cause i didn't notice shitty CGI...

In which scenes is the cgi so shitty that it diminishes the film for you?

And concerning Indy5, i truly hope it gets made. Now that the aliens are out of the way the chance is high that we get another earthy or religious macguffin which will result in a better movie.

I would still love to see "Indiana Jones and the Search for Atlantis".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Very few movies are perfect. Also very few movies as as ineptly made is the prequels.

[Richard Penna 3,670]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

Up to that point it wasn't a bad movie really; it just didn't feel like Indy.

Bad GGI takes me out of a movie. Can't help it.

[Quintus 5,399]

My biggest gripe with Indy IV isn't the Tarzan bit, or the nuke bit (which i like), or the fake looking mobile swordfight. My biggest gripe is that it's just a bit of a mess. It is a very poorly made movie.

And I talk about Indy IV now as someone who recently made his peace with it.

[Ollie 1,059]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

Up to that point it wasn't a bad movie really; it just didn't feel like Indy.

Bad GGI takes me out of a movie. Can't help it.

Plus the fact that most of that sequence appeared to be almost a copy of the endings to The Mummy and The Mummy Returns.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah that was the biggest problem. also the character of Mac was a copy of the Benny character from the Mummy.

[Quintus 5,399]

Funny (and pathetic) how Indy ended up copying from a series which has always tried to replicate it.

[Ollie 1,059]

And the sad thing is that they had almost 20 years to get a good script and they failed.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

That's also the point where you realize that Indy is just going through the motions of his artifact-gonna-kill-my-villain cliché, acting as if there is nothing at stake (which there isn't, really) and the the whole thing hits you as either ultimately pointless or childishly ridiculous.