Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Delorean90 42]

My big 3 issues with KOTCS:

1. The family reunion needed humor, yes, but in the film it overtook the whole proceedings, leaving none of the sensitivity or respect for the characters that strengthened Raiders and Last Crusade in that regard.

2. When the cinematography is on, it's really on--see the Chauchilla graveyard and much of the Orellana's cradle sequence--but so often it lacks the richness and detail of Slocombe's work, and ends up giving a certain digital look despite the fact that it was shot on film, with the jungle chase and waterfall sequence being some top offenders. The "shooting next to the surface of the sun" look is just not Indy.

3. Act Three needed more tension--for starters, if the waterfall scene had been a serious set piece where they were really trying to get away and succeeded, and the warriors hadn't been dealt with so handily, you might have a start.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Very few movies are perfect. Also very few movies as as ineptly made is the prequels.

Bingo.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well nothing in this post is silly and you know that. See my post as the result of reading 2 years of prequel and indy4 bashing which bugged me all the time till i had to post about it in this random thread. You probably don't share my opinion Mr.Breathmask (which is ok)... but please respect mine

Well, you threw me off there by bringing Star Wars into it out of nowhere in some sort of "leave George Lucas alone!!!!!!11" fashion, so don't expect not to get a response there.

Of course Starwars is for adults too but TPM just was specifically aimed at getting the children and the youth of 99 interested into the starwars universe. That's the reason for the disappointments of most adult fans...

Which was a dumb thing to do, in my opinion. The Star Wars trilogy were well-loved classics by the time TPM went into development, loved by parents and children alike. But the fact that kids like a certain movie doesn't mean it's a kids' movie. They made that mistake with TPM, which was indeed squarely aimed at children (completely misjudging this film's main target audience). They then spent the next two movies trying to correct this, until they ended up with the first PG-13 Star Wars movie where the film's hero (is he really, though?) goes on a killing spree, mercilessly slaughtering everyone from tradespeople to six year-olds (only to end up dismembered and burnt to a crisp himself). Kids movie? Whaaaaah?

That's one of the things that went wrong with the prequel trilogy and it doesn't even have anything to do with the filmmaking and storytelling in these movies (which I refuse to go into here, because then this whole thing will go on forever).

I guess you watched Indy4 much more often than me cause i didn't notice shitty CGI...

In which scenes is the cgi so shitty that it diminishes the film for you?

I'm not sure if this was at me, or at someone else, since I didn't mention the Indy CGI at all.

But if you must know, the visual effects bit that bothers me most about KotCS is the sword fight during the jungle chase. This chase, which looks like it's supposed to be a throwback to the desert chase from Raiders quickly dissolves into moment after moment of pushing our suspense of disbelief.

Look at Raiders. It's dusty, it's rough, you cringe every time Indy takes a punch. You can feel the danger. Sure, there's some stuff that only happens in movies (being thrown through the windshield, yet still managing to hang onto the front of the truck), but when it happens, it sure doesn't look painless. There's still some sort of physics that resemble the real world at work. Seriously, Indy gets the shit kicked out of him in that movie.

Now look at KotCS. They're swordfighting atop two seperate vehicles, moving through a frickin' jungle at high speed! The fuck? I'm no longer just watching an exciting chase, or even if I take myself out of the experience of watching the movie as an audience member, in awe of the great stuntwork. I'm just wondering why the hell they're doing all this elaborate sword twirling, istead of beating the crap out of each other. It's not even awful because it's shot on a soundstage, it's awful because it's bullshit.

By comparison, the motorcycle chase earlier in the film is a lot more fun, because - while it also has some questionable physics - it's all real stunts. It feels real. It's too bad it ends with what I find the single most offensive moment in the entire film: the decapitation of Denholm Elliott. Seriously. What. The. Fuck?

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is part throwback to the 1950's pulp movies (much like Raiders was to the 1930's serials). Except they ended up putting the whole thing in environments that harken back to the old Indy films. Jungles, ancient mystical artefacts, heathen tribes... It's just such an odd blend and it doesn't really work. I think they took a gamble, and it just didn't pay off. Sad, but it happens to the best of us. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is torn between two goals and it ultimately fails in achieving either of them.

Honestly, if Spielberg and Lucas had gotten together to make a 1950's science-fiction throwback without Indiana Jones in it, I'm telling you we'd have a different movie now and one that would have been miles better for it. If Steven and George ever do make their love letter to the 1950's science fiction genre in the way Raiders of the Lost Ark was a love letter to the 1930's saturday matinee, I'll be first in line to see it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hurray for Mr. Breathymask thingy!

[crocodile 8,012]

I generally buy the 50's setting. After all every single Indy film is of a slightly different genre.

I said it before. All could be salvaged if not for the awful third act. And I'm not talking about aliens at all. It's just there isn't any conflict in there going on. Once the extended 20 minute sequence of ridiculous chases burns out, there is nothing left in this movie at all. Absolutely no tension. Indy is just a by-stander and he drags all these characters that have no impact on the plot whatsoever. They could just left the skull to Cate Blanchett earlier in the film and the ending would have beeen exactly the same. That's the problem.

As cheesy as it was, the Darabont's script was actually about something at this point. You know, love for Marion thing.

Karol

[Brónach 1,302]

Darabont's script was hilariously ridiculous. The final script is ridiculous as well, in a more boring way.

I lament they did nearly nothing with Spalko. She's the best designed villain of the whole saga, sexy and intimidating and the same time. As I read once, she should have made us believe she was going to kill Indiana Jones.

[crocodile 8,012]

But it had a story at least. The things you're probably referring to could have been changed. They were minor details. Koepp is lacking in structure, which is a much bigger flaw. And we don't even know which draft of Darabont script leaked. Maybe it was the early version. Who knows?

Karol

[Brónach 1,302]

Yes, that script had greater potential because it was technically better.

As I remember it, some changes:

-Change the plutonum thing at the beggining for something else.

-Loose useless characters.

-More work on the villains.

-Don't have Oxley being Tarzan.

-Loose the atomic bomb scene, I waaay prefer the hilarious museum scene instead. But change the golden idol to something else.

-Etc.

However, when I started to rewrite I used the final script as the first draft instead, because I felt it was more malleable. And I like Spalko.

[Quintus 5,399]

As I've said before, the swordfight sequence would have been friggin' amazing if they had done it for real.

If they'd had bothered to look into it they'd have found two crazy muthas who would have agreed to do it and it would have been spectacular.

But no, it's cheaper (and safer) to do it inside of a computer.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

[gkgyver 1,645]

Wait, they added digital plants to a jungle?

George Lucas: "Screw real life!"

[Brónach 1,302]

The presentation of the jungle in Crystal Skull is kind of lame. You never feel "in the jungle".

[Quintus 5,399]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

It is blatantly obvious though that during the sword fight Shia and Cate have been composited into the scene by way of computer "trickery". It looks as fake as the vine swinging.

Probably the worst special effects work since Zorro and his horse rode a train.

[crocodile 8,012]

Probably the worst special effects work since Zorro and his horse rode a train.

Speaking of which, I still see that shot at 2:03 in my nightmares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhIKOz1xetQ

Karol

[paleo 63]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

Isn't that a little like recording a score with a real orchestra and then adding digitized samples of the same instruments later on?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

So they are actually doing this? I thought this talk of Indy 5 was more of a joke.

Who wants to bet on whether we'll first see Indy 5 or Jurassic Park 4?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Indiana Jones and The Lost World.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Indiana Jones and The Lost World.

Actually, that's not such a bad idea! Conan Doyle's original story could fit perfectly adapted for Indy.

[Incanus 5,714]

Why wouldn't they merge the two and make a film out of it: Indiana Jones and the T-Rex's Golden Tooth, or some shit like that.

That sounds like Indy is going after some gangsta rapper's dental bling bling.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

George. The McGuffin is not that important!

[Quintus 5,399]

I hope it takes him another 10 years to think of one.

[crocodile 8,012]

And another 20 to write.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

And another 20 to write.

Karol

Jed Lucas and Shia will carry the torch in 20 years. The film will be called Curse of Indiana Mutt.

[crocodile 8,012]

By the time they actually make this, iPod will be already an ancient artefact.

Karol

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think you can say bye-bye to Indy 5 forever:

http://collider.com/indiana-jones-5-frank-marshall/183640/

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[TownerFan 4,983]

That is highly unlikely as well, as much as we'll see a new Star Wars movie.

More likely that maybe we'll see a revamped Young Indy kind of project for television.

[Incanus 5,714]

It would be better to let Indiana Jones rest. Harrison Ford is getting too old to play the character anyway. Now at 70, what would be the impetus for the character to go hunting again. And would he be using a cane or even a wheelchair to move by the time they finally figured out a new McGuffin.

[Delorean90 42]

Speaking of Young Indy, I would LOVE to see that series get the treatment that TNG is getting on Blu. We've got VHS copies of the first three Indy films that have promos for Young Indiana Jones, and you can get a sense of what it looked like in its original film state before it was transferred to a (digital or tape?) format for editing. The shows already look good, but they really had a terrifically cinematic look going on that would be well worth preserving, and would enhance the show's already wonderful atmosphere.

[Wojo 2,453]

Color me stupid, but I never knew Frank Marshall and Kathleen Kennedy are married, and have been since 1987.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Why do you think they work on every film together?

[indy4 155]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo

And here I was getting ready to change my name to 'indy5'

[Incanus 5,714]

I remember how Conan O'Brien joked about the possibilities of new Indy films years ago and remarked that when Ford is getting too old for the action they could just make a film called Indiana Jones and the Comfortable Bed and instead of the going after the treasure, the treasure would be brought to him to save the trouble. Ford is not in such a bad shape yet but I can't really seem him doing another Indy movie. So sorry indy4, changing name won't be necessary.

[Quintus 5,399]

It's not the years, it's the mileage. Ford is in excellent shape, but his face has withered before his body .

[indy4 155]

I thought he looked great in KotCS. Although his face was saggy in the poster.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

F.O.R.D

Found

On

Road

Dead

[Quintus 5,399]

Cheery.

[Wojo 2,453]

Fixed or repaired daily.

[Ren 75]

It's time for a new younger Indy. Period.

[Trent B 337]

Let it die...please let it die.

[romantico 0]

If they can not figure out the McGuffin by now they really should give it up. I mean, there are so many possibilities out there. Atlantis. Spear of Destiny. El Dorado. The pyramids of Egypt. I was hoping in Indy 4 Indy would battle Nazis in South America in the 1950's. Hell, even entertain the conspiracy that Hitler escaped. SO MANY things they could consider. Ford is in great shape but he was in better shape 5 years ago when they shot Indy 4. I did not think they would wait this long to do an Indy 5. I thought they might even start hiring writers before Indy 4 came out and prep a fifth film in late 2008 or sometime in 2009. Indy 5 IMO should have been released in 2011 or 2012. I hate to see them go out with Indy 4. Would love to see them get it right and do a good film as their last hurrah. However, so much time has been wasted, I say just kill the project. If so I hope Lucas himself makes an announcement that Indy 5 is now officially dead and that KOTCS was the last one. Don't keep the fans guessing, make it official.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

It's time for a new younger Indy. Period.

NO, time for Indy to ride off into the sunset.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I say full reboot of Indiana Jones. Chris Pine would make an excellent Indy, and he's got the youth factor!

[Wojo 2,453]

I think it's time for the franchise to reboot. I'd LOVE to hear what a sophisticated modern composer like Jablowsky could write for the character.

:pukeface: :pukeface: :pukeface: :pukeface: :pukeface:

[King Mark 3,631]

That's one fake excuse for not making a movie. Can't come up with a story? really?

[MrJosh 892]

The only reason I would want another Indy movie is to have another score.....assuming Williams would write it.

Otherwise, I'm happy to have the first three films.

[romantico 0]

I can't have a conversation with Anyone who thinks 'rebooting' this film is a good idea. Reboot STAR WARS then and CASABLANCA. Rebooting classic films is basically saying,'Hey,a new generation does not want to watch 'old movies' and frankly,we can do it better'. I agree. it sounds like they just aren't really into the idea of coming up with something new. I think Ford surprised everyone they saw not only did he still look good as Indiana but he proved he could still carry an old time action film at 65 years old. Clint Eastwood was about that age when he did The Dead Pool (his last Dirty Harry film) and Clint knew when it was time to hang it up and go out with style. Would have been great to see Ford as Indy in a 5th film and it would have been nice if they REALLY did it right,had a great story,and went out with a bang. I get the impression Spielberg and Lucas really are not interested at this point so they are giving up. I just wish they would officially say it so we don't have Indy 5 speculation when Ford is 75 or 80.