John Williams' Fiddler on the Roof

[indy4 155]

Matessino's interview about John Williams made me realize how little discussed Williams' arranging on Fiddler on the Roof is discussed. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a discussion about it on this MB. As his first Oscar win, it's certainly an important work in his career, and I think there's a decent amount to talk about. So here are my thoughts on it.

In general, the film score is much more ornamented and complex than the Broadway score. I think that sometimes this yields a superior moment for the film, other times an inferior one. Here are some more specific notes:

- In the play's "Tradition," the Tradition theme (heard after the very first chorus of "Traditiiiooooon!"), the theme is played in a very straightforward manner, primarily on trumpet. In William's version, the theme is first played primarily on strings, and it is much more elaborate. He plays with the rhythmn quite a bit, and adds a few grace notes. I prefer the play version in this instance. Brass makes a much stronger and prouder statement than strings (as a brass player I may be a little biased). Further, I think that because this is a) the first instance we hear the tradition theme and b) depicting a set of rules that is straightforward and does not deviate or go outside the lines, the spiced up rhythmns and added notes are counterproductive.

- "If I Were a Rich Man" is probably the best example of Williams' complexity. In the play, there are a few very simple interludes between vocal phrases. In the film, there are highly complex and technical licks, and one in almost every moment of vocal silence. It may be a little overbearing at times, but I enjoy these additions. More importantly, Williams gives the song more development. I feel that the play's song ends in the same place it started. Williams' version gets more excited and bolder with Tevye. This is largely due to the arrangement (it gets brassier and louder and busier as the song progresses), but also due to Tevye's vocals. I'm not sure if this was Williams' decision, but I know the arranging was.

- "Sabbath Prayer," one of my favorite songs from the film, gets interesting treatment in the film. I absolutely love how Williams emphasized the wordless choir more, but I absolutely hate how he dialed down woodwinds' eight note lick in the last few bars. This is one of the coolest licks in the show - it's spooky, reverent, and perhaps even a foreshadowing device of events to come. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the mixing on the CD or one of Williams' artistic decisions, but it is criminal as far as I'm concerned.

- I prefer the play's slower tempo on the "da da da da" woodwind bits during "A blessing on your head..." dialogue in "The Dream."

- It's a shame we didn't get to hear the entire "To Life" sequence on the film soundtrack. In the play there is an extra movement called "To Life - Dance," in addition to the actual song, and it has got some excellent music (especially for trombone). Parts of it are interpersed throughout "To Life," but the whole thing would've been nice.

- I love the new intro/ending to Williams' "Sunrise Sunset." It perfectly captures and expands on the mood of the original song.

- Williams' "Act 1 Finale" destroys that of the play. As far as I know the play's version has never been officially released, but I had the privalege of playing in the show once, and I was disapointed that I didn't get to play Williams' awesome power house. That said, I'm not sure how appropriate it would have been for the play, but as a listening experience it is a little bit lame compared to the film version. The only complaint I have is the ending. I dislike a techniue Williams uses several times in Fiddler: after a big climax, the music drops out for a few beats, then returns with some very quiet strings that crescendo to the finish. It likes the piece has all this momentum, and then it's all halted with this drop down and forced to build itself up again, which one sustained note can never match. Even a forte piano would have been better here.

- "The Rejection Scene" (film) and "Chava Sequence" (play) are both pretty cool. The former uses primarily brass to state the tradition theme as well as the counterpoint, ending with a haunting viola solo of the Tradition theme. The latter uses a chorus to sing tradition, with brass counterpoint, ending with a repeated viola solo of the tradition theme. Both are equally good I think (if I had to pick one I'd probably pick the play version), but very different.

- I wish the film had included "Now I Have Everything," which is far superior to the unused(?) "Any Day Now." "The Rumor" is nice too, but I don't take issue with cutting it. Oh, and Williams extended "En'tract" heard on several Boston Pops compilations is awesome.

So those are my thoughts, at least the ones I could come up with off the top of my head. I think both provide really great listens. I'll listen to both, depending on what mood I'm in. What are your thoughts on the scores?

[Greg1138 3]

Agreed agreed agreed agreed agreed.....amazed this one gets missed out of favourites lists so much, yes I know it's not primarily his score but his adaptations are top notch (and I even like the drop outs followed by long crescendo notes). Full of Win from beginning to tearful end.

I just can't stand the bloody movie!! Haha - I really can't - bum numbing stuff.....but the album gets played regularly here and works just great as a listening experience (and one of the few JW projects to get an expanded treatment with unused music!).

[MissPadmé 17]

I prefer the Theater(Original) Verion to the Williams approach.

It has a much smaller ensemble, and all the arrangements are (intentionally) very close to the spirit of trad. jewish folk/Klezmer-music

I however understand, that if you translate a musical to the big screen you have to get bigger, bigger and bigger!

The music tapestry has to get thicker and you need 8 Horns instead of 2.

I don't like that music "Hollywoodyfication" although it is done in Williams usual perfect, skillful kraftsmanship.

Also the few cues of original score (the greatest one is still unreleased!!) are fantastic.

It is a wellcrafted adaptation/translation to work on the big screen - but I don't think it improves the original version, because that one (which I prefer) is meant to be that simple, (you don't need 4 cuonterpoints or whatever)

[indy4 155]

I just can't stand the bloody movie!! Haha - I really can't - bum numbing stuff....

I haven't seen it in a while, but I loved it when I saw it. What about it do you dislike?

It is a wellcrafted adaptation/translation to work on the big screen - but I don't think it improves the original version, because that one (which I prefer) is meant to be that simple, (you don't need 4 cuonterpoints or whatever)

Sometimes I feel that way also, but if I'm mood for a technically more ambitious piece of music then I'll listen to the film score.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I prefer the Theater(Original) Verion to the Williams approach.

It has a much smaller ensemble, and all the arrangements are (intentionally) very close to the spirit of trad. jewish folk/Klezmer-music

I however understand, that if you translate a musical to the big screen you have to get bigger, bigger and bigger!

The music tapestry has to get thicker and you need 8 Horns instead of 2.

I don't like that music "Hollywoodyfication" although it is done in Williams usual perfect, skillful kraftsmanship.

Also the few cues of original score (the greatest one is still unreleased!!) are fantastic.

It is a wellcrafted adaptation/translation to work on the big screen - but I don't think it improves the original version, because that one (which I prefer) is meant to be that simple, (you don't need 4 cuonterpoints or whatever)

I agree with you. I like the Williams version for what it is, he did an excellent job. However I feel the original theater orchestrations captured the essence of the music and the style well enough that one really would never want or need anything more. It was masterful.

[crocodile 7,984]

I can where you're coming from, but at the same time the story, while being very small and personal, has at the same time an almost epic feel and the score in the film reflects that, I think.

I love this musical btw. Probably (in both theater and film versions) one of the few that has actually an interesting story to tell.

Karol

[Henry B 50]

indy4, do you have a particular recording in mind? It's often the case that new recordings of stage musicals feature revamped orchestrations, and there are quite a few recordings of Fiddler around.

[indy4 155]

I'm referring to the 1964 Original Cast Recording.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a discussion about it on this MB.

Not so fast my friend. :-)

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18845&st=0&p=636978&hl=fiddler&fromsearch=1entry636978

[indy4 155]

Whoops, my mistake! Still, it's not often discussed.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Whoops, my mistake! Still, it's not often discussed.

Agreed. That was the whole point of my thread. A completely overlooked opus in JW's career (if you can call an Oscar winner "overlooked")

The thread not making it past 5 responses kind of symbolizes that fact.

[Ollie 1,059]

It's not Star Wars, Indiana Jones or Harry Potter. So it gets lost, plus it's mostly an adaptation by Williams.

But it's a wonderful album and hopefully a majority of Williams fans have it in their collection along with Mr. Chips.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Yep, every true JWFan should have this one in his/her collection imho.

I personally love very much the "Entr'acte" and "Finale", two set-pieces that later Williams used as a basis for his own Fiddler on the Roof concert suite.

The "Wedding Celebrationa and Bottle Dance" is also a favourite of mine--this is where Williams' own arranging is clearly stamped on the score, with that wild horn playing.

[Jay 37,287]

It's not Star Wars, Indiana Jones or Harry Potter. So it gets lost, plus it's mostly an adaptation by Williams.

But it's a wonderful album and hopefully a majority of Williams fans have it in their collection along with Mr. Chips.

I don't have either

[Thor 7,465]

Up to this now.

 

I realize Williams got an Oscar for his work here, and that it's generally appreciated, but I've always felt that he OVER-orchestrated Jerry Bock's music -- most of the raw and gritty klezmer music is lost to an over-powering orchestra, often very high-pitched and aggravating. But the latter could of course also be because of the "pinched" sound quality (I have the 30th anniversary release that came out in 2001).

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

Personally, I like the sound; its nice and dry, without being too bright. Typical JW/LSO/Anvil of the era.

[Thor 7,465]

Well, agree to disagree. With horrible tracks like "Tevye's Dream", for example, it gets so aggravating eventually -- largely due to the high-pitched sound quality that makes all the screaming unbearable -- that I just have to skip to the next track. I don't believe I've ever managed to play that one through.

 

It's in many ways the same sound quality problem plagueing this as THOMAS AND THE KING. Although FIDDLER has better music/score, of course.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Anti-semite!

[Bespin 8,480]

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Anti-semite!

 

Can you stop doing that please? I'm sure you try to be funny, but you are simply childish. It's not the first time you answer like this to someone who tries to discuss seriously. Racist, anti-semite, what else...

 

It's funny one time, but not two, three...

 

Please.

[Wojo 2,453]

It's one of Stef's catchphrases that you just have to accept as Stef being his loveable obnoxious self. 

 

It's also hypocritical of him because I made an anti-Islam comment in the TV thread that he agreed with, but here Thor doesn't like something that's Jewish and Steef sees that as a sign his next step involves tiny mustaches, gas chambers, red armbands, and denial. Hatred of something that the race makes is clearly hatred of the race. Clearly. 

 

Good old Stefancos. We love him and his childish harmless idiocy. 

[Bespin 8,480]

Well, me after the recent Québec events... that were not related on the forum... and that's okay.... well I'm very tired of people accusing others of being racists.  As a Québécois, it's a thing I can't bare anymore. It's gratuitously most of the time and that's not funny.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No one cares about what happens in Canada though, or even know about it!

 

Whats a Québec?

[Bespin 8,480]

I always loved the Fiddler on the Roof score.

 

One thing I can say about the two releases, and that's the discographist who speaks, as usual, is that they don't feature the same version of "Prologue And 'Tradition' & Main Title".

 

There's an album and a movie version.

 

Fiddler On The Roof [Original Motion Picture Soundtrack Recording] (1971, United Artists Records, UAS-10900; Stern, Williams) Prologue And "Tradition" & Main Title; Matchmaker; If I Were A Rich Man; Sabbath Prayer; To Life; Miracle Of Miracles; Tevye's Dream; Sunrise, Sunset; Wedding Celebration And "The Bottle Dance"; Do You Love Me?; Far From The Home I Love; Chava Ballet Sequence; Anatevka; Finale.

(Reissued in 1984, EMI, CDP 7 46091 2)

Fiddler on the Roof - 30th Anniversary Edition [Original Motion Picture Soundtrack Recording] (1971) (2001, EMI, 72435-35266-2-7; Stern, Williams) Prologue And "Tradition" & Main Title (film version); Matchmaker; If I Were A Rich Man; Sabbath Prayer; To Life; Miracle Of Miracles; Tevye's Dream; Wedding Procession*; Sunrise, Sunset; Wedding Celebration And "The Bottle Dance"; First Act Finale*; Entr'acte*; Do You Love Me?; Far From The Home I Love; Chava Ballet Sequence; The Rejection Scene*; Anatevka; Finale; Any Day Now [previously unreleased demo song]. *Previously unreleased score track.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

12 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Whats a Québec?

 

[Bespin 8,480]

Stefancos, it's the name of a Province in Canada (the only one where french is the official language).

 

It's where I live, look under my avatar. We are 8 millions.

 

 

It's also the name of it's capital, Québec city.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

French? I thought Canada was in the USA?

[Bespin 8,480]

Putain d'imbécile!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Putain? It thought it was called poutine?

[Wojo 2,453]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

Putain d'imbécile!

 

[KittBash 282]

23 hours ago, Bespin said:

it's the name of a Province in Canada (the only one where french is the official language).

 

 

And as a neighbor to the east in New Brunswick (the apparently "bilingual province") I'm always surprised how many primarily English speakers also live in Quebec! Not that it's a problem but the province is primarily seen as a Francais only spot. 

 

Either way, with what has happened here in Quebec in the past little while, Bespin is right, we are all a little raw but glad we've got JWfan to escape to... most of the time 

 

Now back to topic as I go dig out my copy of Fiddler

[Loert 2,510]

Fiddler on the Roof is good but I prefer Fiedler on the Roof:

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

OMG!

[BloodBoal 7,538]