The J.R.R Tolkien Discussion Thread

[KK 3,307]

BloodBoal isn't judging the book at all. He just believes the kind of evocative style of Tolkien's writing is far more suitable for a 2D animation approach, where you can really bring out some beautiful stuff artistically. And I agree with that. So whatwhat wh if its more time consuming, great art often is. I'd

And though you didn't suggest 3D specifically, by suggesting Pixar and DreamWorks, you were implying 3D, since they almost exclusively do 3D animation...which is definitely a dull way totoo approach Tolkien's writing, in my opinion.

[Faleel 5,346]

since they almost exclusively do 3D animation...which is definitely a dull way too approach Tolkien's writing, in my opinion.

Jackson sure doesn't think so!

[KK 3,307]

That explains a lot actually!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

BloodBoal isn't judging the book at all. He just believes the kind of evocative style of Tolkien's writing is far more suitable for a 2D animation approach, where you can really bring out some beautiful stuff artistically. And I agree with that. So whatwhat wh if its more time consuming, great art often is. I'd

And though you didn't suggest 3D specifically, by suggesting Pixar and DreamWorks, you were implying 3D, since they almost exclusively do 3D animation...which is definitely a dull way totoo approach Tolkien's writing, in my opinion.

Ah, KK! You and I, we're like:

We must have been brothers in another life!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Is this how you shake hands?

[KK 3,307]

Perhaps we are brothers Alvar! I know I have some Swedish relatives...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Is this how you shake hands?

Yeah. But it looks even more masculine!

Perhaps we are brothers Alvar! I know iI have some Swedish relatives...

It is possible. I'm an orphan, and my foster parents never told me anything about my past...

[RedBard 71]

BloodBoal isn't judging the book at all. He just believes the kind of evocative style of Tolkien's writing is far more suitable for a 2D animation approach, where you can really bring out some beautiful stuff artistically. And I agree with that. So whatwhat wh if its more time consuming, great art often is. I'd

Except The Father Christmas Letters and LOTR are two entirely different universes and are written for two different audiences (in FCL's case, it's literally for Tolkien's children).

I'll say to you what I said to BloodBoal:

Give FCL a read-through and see how Tolkien's writing style in this book compares to LOTR.

And though you didn't suggest 3D specifically, by suggesting Pixar and DreamWorks, you were implying 3D, since they almost exclusively do 3D animation...which is definitely a dull way totoo approach Tolkien's writing, in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree. 3D computer animation has come a long, long way capability-wise since Toy Story and I believe a 3D animation would be the medium which suits best in bringing the story, characters, and environments of FCL to life.

It's far from "dull."

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[RedBard 71]

No one mentioned LOTR except you.

What else is Tolkien best known for?

(And you did bring up The Hobbit, which takes place before and in the same universe as LOTR)

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Has J.K Rowling ever voiced her opinion on John Williams's score? I'd be interested to hear what she thinks about it,

What does that have to do with J RR Tolkien?

Crap! I misread the title, is there anyway you could delete the post?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[RedBard 71]

Yes, but it has a different writing style, which is what I was talking about, and which I'm sure is quite similar to the ones Tolkien used in The Father Christmas Letters, since The Hobbit is also a "children's book".

But have you read FCL to confirm this? I just want to know, and yes, I'm the only one who brought up LOTR. It's what almost everyone else has been talking about on this thread so far.

The Hobbit? A children's book? This I did not know, based on my reading it.

Were children just automatically more literate in pre-WWII England?

Or are 21st Century American children just more illiterate in comparison?

[KK 3,307]

I haven't read FCL, but I've heard it's close to Tolkien's children book writing style. In fact, I've heard some of it even went on to inspire some of the bits in the Middle-Earth mythology. Maybe Incanus can elaborate on that. Not to mention Tolkien has a very distinct style, even in his non-Middle-Earth books (a couple of which I've had the pleasure of reading). Based on that, I feel his style is more appropriate for 2D. He has a very painting-like style that would be more akin to some of the beautiful imagery we've seem in the Disney classics of old. And while 3D has quite a bit, considering the quality of most of its output, I don't think its do Tolkien justice. Not that I'm saying it won't work, just that 2D is what I'd prefer to see for Tolkien until proven wrong

And the Hobbit is very much a children's book. Back in the day, children's books werr often very well written

And just because Peter Jackson makes a bloated epic based on it, doesn't change the original source.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I've read it. It's more whimsical than his Middle-Earth stuff. Classic Disney animation would be nice. I'll score it.

[KK 3,307]

I've read it. It's more whimsical than his Middle-Earth stuff.

Which is to be expected. No one said this is Lord of the Rings. So I'm not sure why the comparison was made. We were just mentioning how Tolkien's style and 2D sound like a good match.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Classic Disney animation would be nice.

Tolkien would be spinning in his grave if Disney came anywhere near to his works.

[KK 3,307]

I'm sure he's already been doing enough of that, with all that's been done with his work.

[RedBard 71]

I've read it. It's more whimsical than his Middle-Earth stuff.

Which is to be expected. No one said this is Lord of the Rings. So I'm not sure why the comparison was made. We were just mentioning how Tolkien's style and 2D sound like a good match.

I brought up LOTR because of the automatic association that comes with Tolkien. I'll remember not to do that next time.

As far as 2D goes, good luck getting Disney Studios to do such a thing. Here's my take on it:

When The Princess and the Frog came out in 2009, Disney fans (and some critics whose names escape me at the time) said that it pointed to a return to traditional Disney animation. Well, after five years, it is clear that these pronouncements were actually misfires. With Disney's 3D movies still coming out and their incredible popularity compared to their most recent 2D films, The Princess and the Frog looks more like a stumbling post than a signpost of animation trends. From what I have seen of the Platinum and Diamond re-releases, it's almost as if Disney is suggesting 2D movies are best watched through re-releases of their older films that are in moratarium (temptingly advertised as the Disney Vault), which only makes Disney films more a prime target for digital piracy than capital gain.

Bottom Line: Disney wouldn't be the best studio to go with a 2D FCL film, even if there were a generation of animators who were committed to taking on the project.

You're more likely to convince Studio Ghibli to bring FCL to life.

I've read it. It's more whimsical than his Middle-Earth stuff. Classic Disney animation would be nice. I'll score it.

Not if I score it first.

Unless...

Hmm....

What do you have in mind? A full-fledged JW orchestra?

Actually, how often do two composers get to score the same film?

[KK 3,307]

I was speaking in terms of an ideal world mnac, where this would be adapted through 2D animation and we could all collab-score or something

But let's face it, this book is probably never going to hit the big screen, at least not in our lifetimes.

[RedBard 71]

Let me guess...

the overly protective Tolkien Estate?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I don't do collaborations.

Tolkien can spin all he wants, but it's not necessarily justified.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

I'm sure he's already been doing enough of that, with all that's been done with his work.

Possibly, but he was well known for loathing Walt Disney and his view of dwarfs.

[RedBard 71]

I don't do collaborations.

Fair enough.

Still (in the spirit of fun), if it were up to you, how would you score a FCL film?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Dunno, but it would probably include lots of metal percussion, keyboards, and boy trebles - preferably from one of the Oxford chapel choirs, for obvious reasons.

[RedBard 71]

Would an orchestra be somewhere in that ensemble you proposed?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Maybe a chamber-sized string group and 3 trumpets/4 horns. Double woodwinds, and I think I hear a bass oboe/heckelphone in there.

[KK 3,307]

Tolkien can spin all he wants, but it's not necessarily justified.

Indeed. But prideful men are prideful men.

[RedBard 71]

Metal percussion?

Like anvils and tubular bells?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Now I'm really thinking about this. Double woodwinds, with the oboes doubling on one of the warmer oboe variants. 4 horns, 2 C trumpets, 1 D trumpet. 16 part boys choir, 16 part mens choir, one female soprano soloist (who can sing in pure, vibrato-less tones!). 2 harps, 2 pianos, 2 celestas, vibraphone, crotales, tubular bells, wind chimes. Possible synths. Strings (10,10,8,6,4). Maybe I'll actually set some of the more lyrical stuff from the book this winter.

[RedBard 71]

Oboe Variant?

You mean like an Oboe D'amore, or even a Cor Anglais?

And would that include bowed crotales and vibraphone?

And what lyrical are you referring to? Are we still talking about FCL, or LOTR?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yes like I said maybe bass oboes or heckelphones. Bowed metal is a go. And I mean any parts of FCL that might lend themselves to being sung.

Actually maybe a glass harmonica instead of a similar synth sound.

[RedBard 71]

Good lucking finding a glass harmonica. Those things are rare and expensive.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Just like an ensemble of the size/makeup I mentioned. That's what the magic of sampling is for.

[KK 3,307]

Someone should send all this over to Peter Jackson.

[Wojo 2,453]

Someone should all this over to Peter Jackson.

Should what?

[KK 3,307]

Oops.

[RedBard 71]

You did not...

Did you just...

[Kühni 485]

Currently re-reading the Silmarillion for the first time in ten years. How I wish JRRT could've finished this one himself. The scope of these stories is beyond anything in the Hobbit, or even LotR. The images I'm seeing in my mind of Beleriand, the Thangorodrim and the huge battles fought are as vivid as they were the first time around.

I hope that PJ et al. NEVER get their hands onto this one, but I sure hope that someone will eventually see fit to set music to The Silmarillion. It would be the epitome of epic.

Carry on, CK

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

I still want that Silmarillion TV series I've been rambling about for years.

And the Sil actually feels sufficiently complete to me. It's all the Unfinished Tales I wish he'd actually completed. Some of them are quite painful, e.g. Tuor's arrival at Gondolin.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yes! Give us a series!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

6 seasons and a movie.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Actually, Akallabêth might be a good source for an opera.

[Incanus 5,714]

Silmarillion is full of powerful visions and stories that echo other great myths of our world but it is so sprawling collection of stories of different length and variety of depth that it would make for a very uneven series or series of films. The time span of the history of the world before the 3rd Age alone would be a big impediment for a narrative (you of course would not have to create a continous one for a series) even though there are countless immortal characters among the dramatis personae and in the end I am more than happy with this collection of tales called Silmarillion just in book form. I doubt anyone could do full justice to the visions of Tolkien in a way that it would feel entirely satisfying and capture his brand of aesthetics and narrative poetry. PJ did do this in part with LotR but I doubt he would be up for something like Silmarillion. There is something elevated in these tales I don't want to be marred by film interpretation. Perhaps some individual central tales could be dramatized as they have enough meat on the bone, such as the tale of Turin Turambar or Akallabêth.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Actually, Akallabêth might be a good source for an opera.

You may have just completely reversed my complete disinterest in ever writing an opera.

[Incanus 5,714]

Actually, Akallabêth might be a good source for an opera.

You may have just completely reversed my complete disinterest in ever writing an opera.

The toppling of the Pelóri mountains and the actual drowning of Númenor better be magnificent on stage then!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Then get to work on a libretto! Using Tolkien tongues only, of course.

[Incanus 5,714]

The duet between Ar-Pharazôn and Sauron will be magnificent! And you can always expand the material with writing from the History of Middle Earth series! Sauron's arrival to Númenor will look spectacular!

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Silmarillion is full of powerful visions and stories that echo other great myths of our world but it is so sprawling collection of stories of different length and variety of depth that it would make for a very uneven series or series of films. The time span of the history of the world before the 3rd Age alone would be a big impediment for a narrative (you of course would not have to create a continous one for a series) even though there are countless immortal characters among the dramatis personae and in the end I am more than happy with this collection of tales called Silmarillion just in book form.

That's why I want a documentary style series with a narrator. I think you could compensate a lot of unevenness that way.

Actually, Akallabêth might be a good source for an opera.

You may have just completely reversed my complete disinterest in ever writing an opera.

It reminds me of how Strauss and his librettists took stories from Greek mythology and told most of the actual action in flashbacks and inner monologues. An Akallabêth libretto could focus mostly on the eve of departure from Elendil's and Ar-Pharazôn's view. The opera could end with an orchestral finale for the reshaping of Middle-earth (somewhat like Wagner's finale to Götterdämmerung).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Just ask Don Davis to do it. It's not like he's overbusy at the moment...