The J.R.R Tolkien Discussion Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Bloodball

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Well the lengthy samples of the translation from several sections of the novel that I have seen were extremely poor. The translator e.g. uses the wrong tense in the narration, makes up new words when adequate ones can already be found in Latin and makes up compound words but doesn't know how to decline these nouns. The person who did the work is obviously some no good dilettante, who should have left this kind of job to the real professionals. Like me.

I really hope the translator has done some serious revising of his translation before the book came out.

So which one should I buy then Inky?

Annotated version without a doubt for extra information or the Alan Lee illustrated version for pure aesthetic pleasure.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

After seeing ROTK, here are a few scenes from the book that I wish they did better.

Frodo's supposed death after Shelob. Yes chronologically they could never have done this as the big cliffhanger it is in TTT. But there is more to be gotten from that chapter.

After thinking his Master is dead Sam goes from blind fury and vowing to destroy Gollum to accepting he must carry on and try and complete the Quest. It's a big scene for Sam and all of that is basically not used.

Another fav scene in ROTK the book is were the Witch King breaks through the gates of Minas Tirith, the first time in history an enemy invades the city.

All flee in terror before him, all but Gandalf the White and Shadowfax, who face the Lord of the Nazgul.

This scene is in the EE but really botched up. First of all the city is already overrun with Orcs, secondly while in the book it is Gandalf at his most strong and defiant, in the film he is portrayed as weak and helpless.

[KK 3,307]

This scene is in the EE but really botched up. First of all the city is already overrun with Orcs, secondly while in the book it is Gandalf at his most strong and defiant, in the film he is portrayed as weak and helpless.

Indeed. I never understood the purpose of that scene. Why break his staff? Nothing in the book suggested his weakness in adversity.

Strange enough the staff pops up again in the Grey Havens. A head scratcher for me.

In my opinion the part of the book they could have handled better is the Army of the Dead, and gathering the forces needed for war. As I said in the other thread, it would have been nice to have seen Aragorn gather the Dunedain.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the Directors commentary I think PJ even highlights his issues with that scene.

I'm no fan of the Army of the Dead. Both in the book and film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Regarding the scene in the book, I do like it way better that in the film. That could have a been a great moment. The way I imagine it, the music would have suddenly stopped when the doors break,, then we would have seen the Witch-King on his horse slowly walking into the city... And the White Wizard facing him. That would have been badass!

I can totally see that! Crazy "Grond - The Hammer of the Underworld" style music growing until the doors swing open. The music is then suddenly cut and the camera shows us Gandalf the White alone atop Shadowfax yelling something awesome along the lines of "Go back to the abyss!".

That would have been epic!

[Quintus 5,399]

Heheh, this forum must be a fucking nightmare for LotR hating John Williams fans right now.

It's overrun!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Heheh, this forum must be a fucking nightmare for LotR hating John Williams fans right now.

It's overrun!

Who is John Williams?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Famed composer of the Zelda games.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

His magnum opus being the theme to Back to the Future.

[gkgyver 1,645]

So, would anyone like to guess what Tolkien would have said about An Unexpected Journey?

[Brónach 1,302]

He would wonder why three films. He would object to the White Council fanfiction being too far away from what he had in mind (this is inevitable). I don't know what he'd think about Azog. He might have liked the main characters, as they're so much like in the books. He'd be obviously blown away by post-1973 special effects and the recreation of Middle Earth, colour grading and what not.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

He would wonder why three films. He would object to the White Council fanfiction being too far away from what he had in mind (this is inevitable). I don't know what he'd think about Azog. He might have liked the main characters.

He'd object to the White Council and the Nazgul tomb nonsense. Then I have a feeling he'd dislike the Azog storyline, not having much character and really deviating from the plot he had in mind.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

he would hate the bunnies of doom, and starfish hairdoes

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i never made it to that part...too boring

[KK 3,307]

Bunnies Of Doom were in the Silmarillion...

You referring to the Balrogs?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Another fav scene in ROTK the book is were the Witch King breaks through the gates of Minas Tirith, the first time in history an enemy invades the city.

All flee in terror before him, all but Gandalf the White and Shadowfax, who face the Lord of the Nazgul.

This scene is in the EE but really botched up. First of all the city is already overrun with Orcs, secondly while in the book it is Gandalf at his most strong and defiant, in the film he is portrayed as weak and helpless.

The Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff completely undermines the whole wizard staff metaphor. Clearly, in the book, breaking a wizard's staff is synonymous with breaking the wizard/stripping him of his powers. Or perhaps the other way round, a wizard's staff can only be broken by breaking the wizard. Or probably both.

Furthermore, I think the book version is much more dramatic. Gandalf is most certainly strong enough there to face off the Witch King and at least bar him from entering the city, plus he's probably dealing with one of the very few enemies he's actually allowed to actively combat. And he would have done, hadn't Denethor dragged Faramir to his pyre, forcing Gandalf to leave the Witch King, the direct result being Theoden's death. Now *that's* devastating.

Me, one of the bits I miss most from the book is Gandalf's speech right before Barad Dur falls. Surely one of the more powerful images the book creates, and putting that on film would have given us some iconic images. I don't understand why anyone would cut that (and replace it with a cave troll, for that matter).

[Jay 37,351]

So wait, in the film version, after the Witch King breaks Gandalf's staff, he only then leaves because he hears the call of the Rohirrum on the plain. Are you saying in the book, it isn't the Witch King that leaves their duel, but Gandalf? What does the Witch King do while Gandalf runs upstairs to help Faramir, just go about attacking the city with no one opposing him?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Ah gotcha. Then Gandalf wouldn't have had a chance to kill the Witch King himself anyway

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Shiiit, I'd forgotten about how the Witchking breaches the gate and marches into the city in the book. The way Tolkien did his usual grandiose exposistionary wordplay to talk the moment up to the reader, how awesome and monumental he made it feel. Just genius.

And Jackson had the wizard instead face up to a few trolls. Pfft.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Is that Grond on the ground?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yep. Pretty uninmpressive, huh? But so is the gate, one could say.

[Jay 37,351]

I like the giant Grond from the film

[Quintus 5,399]

Me too actually.

That's a brilliant illustration above, is it Ted Nasmith? Love the flaming blade.

[Jay 37,351]

You don't know that! He kicked a Balrog's ass!

But if the Witch King left because of the Rohirrim, then Gandalf wouldn't have a chance to try.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Me too actually.

That's a brilliant picture above, is it Ted Nasmith? Love the flaming blade.

So did I. Would have been cool to see Gandalf face the Witch-King at the gates though.

Why? He could pursue him and kick his ass (in the case Faramir wasn't about to be burned by his father).

Ya! It's all Faramir's fault! Stupid wizard's pet...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

Frodo's supposed death after Shelob. Yes chronologically they could never have done this as the big cliffhanger it is in TTT. But there is more to be gotten from that chapter.

After thinking his Master is dead Sam goes from blind fury and vowing to destroy Gollum to accepting he must carry on and try and complete the Quest. It's a big scene for Sam and all of that is basically not used.

I too wish they had included more of this. I don't like the "trick" they play in the film by not even showing Sam take the ring.

[Quintus 5,399]

It was the single biggest disappointment of the whole movie. The entire Shelob subplot is a failure imo, at least as far as doing the book justice is concerned.

And yes, Frodo's "death" (which I'd built up in my mind in the twelve months up to release) was a HUGE missed opportunity. I was really, really annoyed that Jackson chose to quickly skim over what should have been a powerful moment in the trilogy. I even convinced myself that the ost's reprisal of Samwise the Brave underscored the sequence, as he held onto his fallen master in tears, before finding within him the resolve to carry on alone. My version was better, Chaac! It would have been perfect

[Jay 37,351]

Right, that's what the film could have used. Sam spending a little time with Frodo's "corpse", and crying for a while, then saying outloud something about finishing the task for him, and taking the ring and slowly putting it around his neck or something. Then just as he's about to go off, he hears the orcs, and the he hides and hears their dialogue that states he's alive. Would have added maybe 2-5 minutes to the film, but made the entire sequence MUCH more powerful.

[Brónach 1,302]

Oh I still remember that part from the book after all these years.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

You don't know that! He kicked a Balrog's ass!

But if the Witch King left because of the Rohirrim, then Gandalf wouldn't have a chance to try.

The only thing he does it effectively keep the Witch King from entering the city, until the Rohirrim arrive. But he also seems determined to stick with him (however he would have done that), as he complains to Pippin that Denethor's madness is keeping him from being where he is needed. I've always taken that as a direct reference to Theoden's death, however much of it Gandalf may have actually foreseen.

Right, that's what the film could have used. Sam spending a little time with Frodo's "corpse", and crying for a while, then saying outloud something about finishing the task for him, and taking the ring and slowly putting it around his neck or something. Then just as he's about to go off, he hears the orcs, and the he hides and hears their dialogue that states he's alive. Would have added maybe 2-5 minutes to the film, but made the entire sequence MUCH more powerful.

I would have liked that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shiiit, I'd forgotten about how the Witchking breaches the gate and marches into the city in the book. The way Tolkien did his usual grandiose exposistionary wordplay to talk the moment up to the reader, how awesome and monumental he made it feel. Just genius.

And it's less then half a page long!

It was the single biggest disappointment of the whole movie. The entire Shelob subplot is a failure imo, at least as far as doing the book justice is concerned.

It's an effective scary/action scene (and when my arachnophobic sister will see the film for the first time soon she will hate it).

The main problem lies that in the film it's just a massive spider. In the book Shelob is much more then that, an ancient evil in spider form, the last child on Ungoliant, who removed the light from the 2 tress of the Valar and changed the world forever.

And yes, Frodo's "death" (which I'd built up in my mind in the twelve months up to release) was a HUGE missed opportunity. I was really, really annoyed that Jackson chose to quickly skim over what should have been a powerful moment in the trilogy. I even convinced myself that the ost's reprisal of Samwise the Brave underscored the sequence, as he held onto his fallen master in tears, before finding within him the resolve to carry on alone. My version was better, Chaac! It would have been perfect

Like I said before. The big cliffhanger could simply not be used in TTT without having to seriously restructure the story. (still would have loved to see a tired and broken Samwise at the gates close and Frodo is in the hands of the Enemy).

All the other stuff could be used. Just a few minutes to an already bloated film.

[Jay 37,351]

You know what's interesting in that the An Unexpected Journey, Radagast refers to the Mirkwood spiders as children of Ungoliant, which I don't think Tolkien ever intended them to be, did he?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,351]

I just read on wikipedia that the Mirkwood spiders are descendants of Shelob, actually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirkwood#Third_Age

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_animals#Great_Spiders

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I just read on wikipedia that the Mirkwood spiders are descendants of Shelob, actually

http://en.wikipedia....kwood#Third_Age

http://en.wikipedia....s#Great_Spiders

And Shelob is one of Ungoliant, so it's technically true.

Radagast may simply not have known of Shelob's existence. There is no evidence in the book LOTR that even Gandalf knows. Since both Radagast and Gandalf are Maia they would have been in the blessed realm when Ungoliant attacked.

[KK 3,307]

In Tolkien's work, the spiders are generally considered to be the descendants of Ungoliant in lineage. So that quote is not un-Tolkien-ish at all. And Stefan you're right, it's likely that none of the Istari were aware of Shelob's existence.