Star Destroyer Breaking Orbit In "Star Wars" And The First Version Of Death Star Motif

[skyy38 21]

Quote from the Special Edition Soundtrack liner notes:

"The piece concludes with the introduction of the four-chord Death Star motif as the Imperial Star Destroyer pulls out of orbit over Tatooine.

This indicates the warship's destination and musically identifies the major threat of the film.

However, since the Death Star has not yet become a visual reality, the first statement of the motif fades away on an unresolved chord......."

Yes it has 4 chords but it is not exactly the Death Star Motif as you hear it later on in the film. I had previously thought that the

"breaking orbit" DS motif was the fully-developed version( heard as the Star Destroyer approaches the Death Star) merely being played softer and slower but this isn't the case.

The "breaking orbit" motif starts on the first chord, descends, ascends and then ascends again to the final, unresolved chord.

The "fully-developed" motif starts on the first chord, ascends, ascends, and ends with the final chord which is then resolved in the lower register..

Both of the above DO share the same rhythm however

My problem is how to put what I've "discovered" into musical terms. I know about music, but at the same time, I don't exactly have a degree from Julliard either! I do have a few "guesses" though.

1. The "breaking orbit" DS motif is a variation on the "full version" in altered form and accompanied in a different manner from the original motif.

2. The "breaking orbit" DS motif chords are inverted from the chords in the "full version". Whether this is 1st or 2nd inversion(or a combination of both) is beyond me.

3. The aforementioned motif is BOTH a variation AND an inversion of and from the "full version".

I'm sure smarter musical heads will prevail in this, but having worked on figuring out both DS motifs, what was written in the liner notes just doesn't seem to make sense.

What do you think?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It´s the same theme!

[Datameister 2,037]

Sorry, man, but Steef is right. The pedal tone (the low note that is sustained beneath the entire motif) is different, which alters the way it feels somewhat, and the orchestration isn't exactly the same, but it's still the same four ascending chords.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Strictly speaking it's not a theme, it's a motive (or motif), like the Rebel Fanfare.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes Doctor Twinkle.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

Yes Doctor Twinkle.

Give him some respect; he's on BBC 1 later.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As what?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Yes Doctor Twinkle.

Give him some respect; he's on BBC 1 later.

I am? I'd better buy a new tie!

[King Mark 3,625]

I always thought this was an evolving motif , as the thread title said. Like it was some sort of progression to the full death star motif

[Datameister 2,037]

I think it's one of those things that just needs not to be overthought, like Leia's theme playing when Luke is shocked by Ben's death. Sometimes Williams makes choices based on the emotion of the scene, without a tremendous amount of strict leitmotivic justification. This particular four-note motif is used for big shots of the Death Star and one shot of a Star Destroyer, and seems to be more closely associated with the former. He modified it a little bit harmonically for its first statement in order to make it flow smoothly with the music before it, and in order to make it fit the emotion of the scene more closely. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that, IMO.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

What ever happened to Williams re-scoring the original Star Wars with the Imperial March? He seemed convinced it was going to happen.

[Datameister 2,037]

I dunno, but I'm glad he didn't. The Imperial March is a fantastic theme (despite being somewhat cheapened by being overplayed in pop culture), but it doesn't belong in Star Wars. Vader's role changed somewhat in Empire, and the new theme reflects that perfectly. The character's first motif fits well in the film it was written for.

Maybe if he'd done the rescores right after doing ESB, that could have worked as an interesting experiment, since his style hadn't changed too much...but the style of Star Wars is way different from anything he's written since the mid-80s or so. Especially when you factor in sound quality.

[skyy38 21]

What ever happened to Williams re-scoring the original Star Wars with the Imperial March? He seemed convinced it was going to happen.

.

Unneeded and Unnecessary. The Imperial March would sound as "shoe-horned" in Star Wars as it did in Attack Of The Clones.

The Imperial March does have its origins in Star Wars and, I believe, in more than one place in the soundtrack.

Go back to the "Look Sir, Droids!" scene and listen. Do you hear a familiar,descending major third, just bubbling up in the pedal tone?

[Datameister 2,037]

The Imperial March is a very, very distant cousin of the material Williams wrote for Vader and the Empire in ANH, but they're so dissimilar that if they'd been written for different characters in different franchises, it wouldn't have been a problem.

[Andy 4,079]

As much as I love the Imperial March, and its use in ROTJ, it works best in ESB.

Now, just play "what if" for a second...

Just suppose in ROTJ, Williams had abandoned the Imperial March altogether, and perhaps developed the "It's a Trap" motif a little more, or just the Emperor's theme. Then you'd have:

ANH: Stormtrooper Motif & Death Star Motif

ESB: Imperial March/ Darth Vader's Theme

ROTJ: Emperor's Theme/It's a Trap Motif

Each film having a different slant on the baddies would've been kinda neat. Granted you don't just toss the iconic Imperial March that everyone was expecting, but this would've been a more ballsy, less obvious approach. Not saying it would've been better. But it's always been interesting to me how the Droids had different themes/motifs in each film. And Leia gets basically a new theme for her character in each film too.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You know, I think the Imperial March maybe sounded a bit better in ROTJ. My favorite versions are when Vader looks out the window at the end of Faking the Code and when the troops go up the hill after the droids (in Battle of Endor I). It never sounded cooler to me.

[Andy 4,079]

It is so masterfully used in all the transitions to the fleet in ESB. It's just so perfect, I think it's deceptively simple. Love the one where Piett walks in on Vader in his meditation chamber... the strings and snare.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I think it's all great, but Jedi is usually underrated, so it needed props.

[Andy 4,079]

It's a tricky thing. The Imperial March is so great, and so perfect. And Jedi has some delightful uses for it. But still, by that time, it had lost a little of its newness. Still great, but no new car smell anymore.

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, and there are a few statements in the ROTJ that are rather cheesy. ESB may overuse the theme somewhat, but there isn't a single statement that I don't like in it.

[Faleel 5,331]

the version of the Imp march when im "approaching the death star" that plays when Vader walks away from the commander is VERY cheesy...but i love it!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah, and there are a few statements in the ROTJ that are rather cheesy.

Any examples?

Personally I've always found the quote of the Imperial March at 06:24 in Rescue from Cloud City/Hyperspace a little cheesy.

[King Mark 3,625]

Only Han Solo and the Princess doesn't seem to fit well in RotJ, but it was so perfect in TESB

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, and there are a few statements in the ROTJ that are rather cheesy.

Any examples?

The only one that comes to mind at the moment is the big statement at the end of Vader's first scene. Actually, "cheesy" probably isn't the right word. Something about it just...doesn't quite work for me. It's kinda like hearing the Raiders March in TLC...it can lack some of the original spirit and energy.

Personally I've always found the quote of the Imperial March at 06:24 in Rescue from Cloud City/Hyperspace a little cheesy.

Unfortunately, I'm not at my main computer right now and can't check, but I wonder if you're referring to the one when Vader and Luke are having their little telepathic conversation from their respective ships? If so...yeah, a little, although I think it works for the scene. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I don't think every single statement of the theme in ESB is flawless or anything, but I just think it was implemented better overall in ESB.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I actually quite like that statement in "Rescue From Cloud City", with the strings swirling up and down like that in the background... Reminds me of the bit at 1:38 of "Far From Home/E.T. Alone". Bliss!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The March when Vader's ship exits the asteroid field is slightly cheesy, but still awesome.

[Jay 37,281]

You guys are all crazy. There isn't a single ounce of cheesiness in anything Williams wrote for the OT.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The only part of the OT I don't like outside the SE ending of Jedi (which I don't hate) is that one scene in Jedi where Vader and the Emperor talk about the rebels on Endor and the Emperor's theme repeats again and again.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah, and there are a few statements in the ROTJ that are rather cheesy.

Any examples?

The only one that comes to mind at the moment is the big statement at the end of Vader's first scene. Actually, "cheesy" probably isn't the right word. Something about it just...doesn't quite work for me. It's kinda like hearing the Raiders March in TLC...it can lack some of the original spirit and energy.

Perhaps, I give you that. But for me, ROTJ contains some of the most powerful, spine chilling renditions of the theme in the entire saga. Such as the various interpolations with the 'Imperial dignitary' motif in the Death Star approach, the huge tutti version when 'Lord Vader has arrived', the Emperor's arrival, 2:20 in Shuttle Tyderium Approaches Endor, my personal favourite rendition of the Imperial March at the very end of that cue with that titanic buildup, the huge punch of the moment where Darth says 'The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force', the ghostly death march at the beginning of The Emperor's Throne Room, and of course Vader's passing.

For me, the takes on the theme in ROTJ are much more nuanced and varied than in ESTB.

Personally I've always found the quote of the Imperial March at 06:24 in Rescue from Cloud City/Hyperspace a little cheesy.

Unfortunately, I'm not at my main computer right now and can't check, but I wonder if you're referring to the one when Vader and Luke are having their little telepathic conversation from their respective ships?

No, it's the bit where Vader reaches the bridge, and asks Admiral Piett if they've deactivated the Falcon's hyperdrive. With the strings playing portamenti in 5ths. A kind of oriental sound, like North's sword-and-sandals scores.

I think it's the tuba doubling below that doesn't sit right with me. Kind of makes it a bit inappropriately humorous, at least outside of the film. Still, only a minor moment.

The only part of the OT I don't like outside the SE ending of Jedi (which I don't hate) is that one scene in Jedi where Vader and the Emperor talk about the rebels on Endor and the Emperor's theme repeats again and again.

I really like that bit. Not sure why.

It's almost like a hypnotic chant, or some kind of spell. You want to break out of it, but you can't. Works well in the context of the film, at least.

[skyy38 21]

NEWS FLASH!

For those of you who still want the IMPERIAL MARCH in STAR WARS, you got your wish! (sort of)

Action commences at 6:33 in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Blm1kqplYY&feature=related

Enjoy!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

What have they done?!

[King Mark 3,625]

The only part of the OT I don't like outside the SE ending of Jedi (which I don't hate) is that one scene in Jedi where Vader and the Emperor talk about the rebels on Endor and the Emperor's theme repeats again and again.

That bit is so cool! Like that long stretched out chanting is so creepy. It's not really the Emperor's theme , is just kind of formless . If it's the same scene were talking about. I think it's the scene with the weird purple guys,I was always fascinated by them . who the fuck are they, they just stand there and nod

What the hell is that scene above? I haven't watched Star Wars in a long time but I don't remember this

[Jay 37,281]

NEWS FLASH!

For those of you who still want the IMPERIAL MARCH in STAR WARS, you got your wish! (sort of)

Action commences at 6:33 in.

Enjoy!

Wow that was pretty terrible

And thats not breaking news, the adywan edits have been around forever

[King Mark 3,625]

did he add RotJ footage or something?

[Datameister 2,037]

The March when Vader's ship exits the asteroid field is slightly cheesy, but still awesome.

Ah, yeah, I'll give you that one.

And Prometheus, I'll give you this one: Vader's death scene features one of the most creative and unusual statements of his theme, and although ESB has some very nice power to its uses of the theme, it never accomplishes anything that interesting with the theme.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Without that eerie Vader death music, I think that scene could have been a gigantic disaster. It works very much due to the music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not really the Emperor's theme , is just kind of formless .

I always considered it as sort of a precursor to The Dark Side Beckons, which has that same shapeless, illusive quality. Both sound like there's a melody somewhere in it's outer edges, that cannot quite be grasped.

I still can't humm either.

[skyy38 21]

did he add RotJ footage or something?

Nope, he did that all by his lonesome.

I too thought that the new bits came from ILM and I've seen the OT WAY more than my fair share of times.

Check out this video that also has some cool stuff he did for ESB (The Falcon approaching Cloud City is awesome!)

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

... and that folks is why I hate digital grading.

[Ollie 1,059]

It's bad enough Lucas tinkers with his own films, we don't need amateur hour either.

There was nothing wrong with Star Wars in 1977, the was nothing wrong with Empire in 1980 and it's too late to fix the problems with Jedi.

Unfortunately the Imperial March loses it's luster in Jedi because Vader has become a wuss and the Empire seems more incompetent. The performances of the theme in TESB are superb and never boarder on cheesiness or comedy.

[Jay 37,281]

The performances of the theme in TESB are superb and never boarder on cheesiness or comedy.

QFT

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Unfortunately the Imperial March loses it's luster in Jedi because Vader has become a wuss and the Empire seems more incompetent. The performances of the theme in TESB are superb and never boarder on cheesiness or comedy.

Yet the most majectic renditions belong to ROTJ and AOTC.

[Jay 37,281]

I'd hardly call the AOTC rendition majestic (or majectic lol)

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't think the mediocrity of the rest of the score makes the rendition of The Imperial March in the final track, when the clone army assembles, any less grand. The musical moment should have been reserved for the final prequel, but oh well, what's done is done, and it's still thrilling music.

[Jay 37,281]

Its GOOD, I just don't know about MAJESTIC

[Brónach 1,301]

My favourite renditions on the theme are in ESB because of their brutal sound. Like evil and fun at the same time.

[Wojo 2,453]

Its GOOD, I just don't know about MAJESTIC

Fair enough.

Now this. THIS IS MAJESTIC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mfMi-Ruu2g

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Its GOOD, I just don't know about MAJESTIC

Come on, its based on the ROTJ cue, but has more grandeur, not a real hint of evil. It is the Republic after all.

Maybe i dont know the meaning of the word majestic correclty, but if there is one rendition of the march closer to that sentation its the AOTC one.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It works brilliantly in a foreboding nature, even in a really obvious and in-your-face way.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Unfortunately the Imperial March loses it's luster in Jedi because Vader has become a wuss and the Empire seems more incompetent.

That's what I like about it, it's representing more than merely the bombast and might of Vader and the Empire. In Jedi, it's more like the bells of fate ringing, reminding every so often that he doesn't have long to go. He's naturally more of a wuss, because he's tortured by the realisation that he's going to be replaced for a newer model, or his son might die. Real operatic.

It's somewhat more compelling, because of that weakness in Vader. So what that he's no longer the ultimate badass in the galaxy? After ESTB, they had no choice but to go a different path with the character.

The performances of the theme in TESB are superb and never boarder on cheesiness or comedy.

Neither do they in ROTJ, or any of the prequels for that matter. The Imperial March has never been mishandled by John Williams.