Star Destroyer Breaking Orbit In "Star Wars" And The First Version Of Death Star Motif

[Jay 37,346]

Neither do they in ROTJ, or any of the prequels for that matter. The Imperial March has never been mishandled by John Williams.

I agree

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree also!

[Wojo 2,453]

The Imperial March has never been mishandled by John Williams.

Word.

The Imperial March has never been mishandled by George Lucas.

Slight difference.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

That part in Attack of the Clones where Anakin is crying and there's a big rendition of the march? Ugh!

[indy4 155]

Unfortunately the Imperial March loses it's luster in Jedi because Vader has become a wuss

You mean a human?

[Ollie 1,059]

A huge mistake on Lucas' part.

Darth Vader never should have been Luke Skywalker's father.

[Wojo 2,453]

Darth Vader never should have been Luke Skywalker's father.

[Brónach 1,302]

A huge mistake on Lucas' part.

Darth Vader never should have been Luke Skywalker's father.

Is that serious?

[Wojo 2,453]

Good call, I forgot to never mind this one too.

[King Mark 3,631]

Unfortunately the Imperial March loses it's luster in Jedi because Vader has become a wuss

You mean a human?

I dunno. The one thing that really works in Jedi is the Emperor/Luke/Vader scenes at the end . When the Emperor is frying Luke with his lightning and Vader is wondering what to do is one of the best moments in the trilogy

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I like that stuff, too. I think Jedi had everything it needed in terms of the story. It's just the execution that probably needed work.

[indy4 155]

Just to be clear: I love Vader's character arc, from the prequels to RotJ

[ZackR 95]

The Imperial March is great in all Williams' iterations.

As for the films, Vader arc, etc...

I cannot watch the films from Ep. 1 -> Ep. 6.

It is too illogical to me that way.

I just started showing them to my son (7). We are watching Ep 4, 5 and 6. Then 1, 2 and 3. I told him that 4,5,6 are the movies and then they made 3 more to try to explain some stuff that "happened before."

Basically, to me, the Original Trilogy are the canon and the prequels are backstory...but if they ever conflict, the Original Trilogy is always right.

The Original Trilogy loses so much impact when watched after the prequels - "No, I am your father..." and the reveal of Luke and Leia as siblings mean lose all impact if you're watching them for the first time. You know Obi Wan is Ben Kenobi. You know who Yoda is as soon as Luke arrives on Dagobah in Empire. Obi Wan's an idiot in Jedi because he doesn't seem to recognize the odd coincidence that a droid that was with him and Anakin for over ten years. Sure, there are other droids that look the same and all that, but he tells Luke that he doesn't recall ever owning a droid. Sure, he didn't own R2 but if someone/thing as instrumental in my life showed up out of the blue, I'd at least think it was interesting...especially when brought to me by the son of the person who essentially did own him.

I know I know I know - all the myriad of inconsistencies between the prequels and originals have been debated ad nauseum, but I've never thrown my two cents around here, so there they are.

For the record, I don't HATE the prequels; I just think that watching them in "chronological" order really ruins much of the drama of the Original Trology. Anyways, sorry if this is off topic!

PS - The Imperial March is one of my favorite pieces of John Williams music. And I hope they never add it into A New Hope.

[Delorean90 42]

I like that stuff, too. I think Jedi had everything it needed in terms of the story. It's just the execution that probably needed work.

Even the Ewoks could have worked theoretically--they serve their purpose by knowing the lay of the land, giving the Rebels an advantage. It's when they tried to make the Ewoks a substantial boost in firepower that it got silly.

[Datameister 2,041]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Zack. Whatever Lucas might have intended for the viewing order, the only order that makes any sense is 4/5/6 followed by 1/2/3. I mean, it doesn't matter so much if you've already seen all of them countless times, but no one should ever be exposed to the prequels before the OT. The OT was designed to be watched by audiences who had never seen the prequels. The prequels were designed to be watched by audiences who had seen the OT. Throw in the fact that the prequels LOOK so much newer, and I can't imagine any compelling argument for them being viewed first.

And I like Vader's arc quite a bit, at least in the OT. ROTJ has its issues, but I feel like Vader's storyline is handled better than almost anything else in it. (As far as the prequels go...well, there were some good ideas in AOTC and ROTS, at least.)

[Andy 4,119]

Actually, I see Mark's point completely. In Star Wars, Vader was almost more fun and mysterious as a crazed warlord who happened to have killed Luke's father. Along comes Empire, and the shock value of the revelation was simply amazing. It truly was an incredible shocker for my 8 year old brain. Waiting 3 YEARS for ROTJ to come out gave us plenty of time to speculate on all the possibilities, chief among them being that Vader simply lied. I don't know if ROTJ would be less effective if that ended up being the case. So, I guess it still works really well, storywise.

The really stupid one was making Leia Luke's sister. At least there weren't scenes in the prior movies that invalidated or contradicted Vader's ESB admission, as Luke/Leia's romance really revealed their kinship to be a writer's afterthought. It also complicated the storyline of the prequels, for what that's worth. It truly seemed tacked on, with no other purpose than to neatly tie up the Han/Leia/Luke love triangle before the end of ROTJ.

[Brónach 1,302]

I think thr problem was never the ending of ESB, since that ending is awesome. In ROTJ there's clearly a need for a three act structure like the previous two, with more stuff thrown in. A revelation about the force and the universe or something. Use something different than a new Death Star, don't overdo the ewoks (they could be there to guide the heroes through the jungle at the beggining of the third act), etc.

The Luke/Leia problem could work better if the script actually dealt with it in the story, as it's not needed to solve the 'triangle' that was already solved. It could have made the prquels more interesting if they also actually had a storyline about what it's described in ROTJ instead of putting a scene at the end that to make things worse makes no sense.

The best thing about ROTJ was always Luke and Vader.

And I agree about the viewing order

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I would have liked for the Alliance to have launched an assault on Coruscant itself. I'm not sure this was ever planned explicitly, but the paintings by McQuarrie of the Emperor's throne room with lava all around it always looked amazing. Maybe another Death Star could have been put there, as a planetary defence system.

Saying that, the only real problem I have with ROTJ are a couple of performances and the drag in the middle.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually, I see Mark's point completely. In Star Wars, Vader was almost more fun and mysterious as a crazed warlord who happened to have killed Luke's father. Along comes Empire, and the shock value of the revelation was simply amazing. It truly was an incredible shocker for my 8 year old brain. Waiting 3 YEARS for ROTJ to come out gave us plenty of time to speculate on all the possibilities, chief among them being that Vader simply lied. I don't know if ROTJ would be less effective if that ended up being the case. So, I guess it still works really well, storywise.

The really stupid one was making Leia Luke's sister. At least there weren't scenes in the prior movies that invalidated or contradicted Vader's ESB admission, as Luke/Leia's romance really revealed their kinship to be a writer's afterthought. It also complicated the storyline of the prequels, for what that's worth. It truly seemed tacked on, with no other purpose than to neatly tie up the Han/Leia/Luke love triangle before the end of ROTJ.

I'm glad someone was able to see my point instead of copying my Facebook posts and ranting on that.

You will find many people, in fact there were several here who felt the same way, who thought the way to go would have Vader lying to Luke and the "other" Yoda mentions would be Luke's Father. He would be in hiding with only Yoda knowing of his existence. He would appear when the time was right to assist Luke in defeating the Emperor and Vader.

[Wojo 2,453]

Uh yea, that would be me. Sorry. Should I post Quint's Last Crusade photo and disappear? I think I should.

I'll leave you with this. I saw ROTJ first in 1992, so for me, Vader was always Luke's father. I don't have the privilege of examining what should or should not have happened. The cat was already always out of the bag.

My introduction to Star Trek was IV (and the tape stopped just before the tribunal hearing at the end of the movie), so I kinda thought that a Klingon Bird of Prey was standard operating procedure, making the Enterprise seem weird.

[Ollie 1,059]

Good grief, you didn't have to delete the post. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing.

[Wojo 2,453]

There is when you pointed out that I dragged my muddy Facebook boots all over your nice JWFan carpet.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't have carpeting, it's tile.

[Wojo 2,453]

Easier to keep clean.

[Datameister 2,041]

The really stupid one was making Leia Luke's sister. At least there weren't scenes in the prior movies that invalidated or contradicted Vader's ESB admission, as Luke/Leia's romance really revealed their kinship to be a writer's afterthought. It also complicated the storyline of the prequels, for what that's worth. It truly seemed tacked on, with no other purpose than to neatly tie up the Han/Leia/Luke love triangle before the end of ROTJ.

This. I mean, the idea of being attracted to someone you don't know is your sibling actually isn't far-fetched at all...but it's still cringe-worthy, especially when you consider that Luke is more interested in her than Han is during ANH, and there's obviously a little something still there in ESB. It's only in ROTJ that their relationship magically becomes very chaste, even before Luke knows. (Although Leia, of course, has "always known." ) But then again, Carrie Fisher was starting to lose her cuteness by ROTJ, so maybe that was a factor.

[Wojo 2,453]

It's the drugs Carrie was on.

Leia also remembers her mother, but she says that before Luke reveals they're siblings, so for what it's worth, she remembers her adopted mother. These are Jedi, not Bene Gesserit. There is no birth memory passed on from mother to daughter, or Leia would have known she was a Jedi from day one, or been drawing enough Force static to tip off Vader when he tortured her on the Death Star. And yes, saying she's "always known" is hella weak.

Clear evidence of a last minute character tweak to amplify the emotion of the final installment.

I never considered the possibility that Yoda's "there is another" referred to Luke's father in hiding. That could have been a cool twist: Luke, near defeat, is saved by the last minute efforts of his real father.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I never considered the possibility that Yoda's "there is another" referred to Luke's father in hiding. That could have been a cool twist: Luke, near defeat, is saved by the last minute efforts of his real father.

sorry, but the force telepathy luke does with leai at the end of ESB, force theme rendition included seems to tell that leia was meant to be luke's sister, by the least, since esb was written.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I never considered the possibility that Yoda's "there is another" referred to Luke's father in hiding. That could have been a cool twist: Luke, near defeat, is saved by the last minute efforts of his real father.

It would be lame actually, and people would be complaining about it as much as they have about the brother/sister thing.

[King Mark 3,631]

The really stupid one was making Leia Luke's sister.

Well the only good thing out of it is the best rendition of Leia's Theme in the trilogy ( ObiWan's Ghost Reveal)

[Andy 4,119]

I never considered the possibility that Yoda's "there is another" referred to Luke's father in hiding. That could have been a cool twist: Luke, near defeat, is saved by the last minute efforts of his real father.

sorry, but the force telepathy luke does with leai at the end of ESB, force theme rendition included seems to tell that leia was meant to be luke's sister, by the least, since esb was written.

Again, I'll share my feelings on that, from before ROTJ was released - I just figured it was something Jedi could do. Get into anyone's mind. Didn't matter if Leia was on his phone plan or not.

I don't think that was an intentional suggestion that Leia was Luke's sister. Perhaps it was suggesting she may have Force powers. I truly wonder what Lucas was intending while penning ESB. Why would he write the scene with the intention of her being Luke's sister, but then have them kiss in the same film? Who, in his mind, did he think Yoda's "Another" was?

I also like the idea of "Another" being Luke's father. Could've been neat.

[Brónach 1,302]

Why would he write the scene with the intention of her being Luke's sister, but then have them kiss in the same film?

I don't know what the ideas about the third film were in the writers' minds, but when you write something you have to be consequential about what your characters know and don't know. The kiss is elaborating on the relations between the characters established in the first film, regardless of what's going to be discovered next. If Lucas actually had in mind Leia as Luke's sister, I'd say it's neat writing.

[King Mark 3,631]

I remember they said in the Making Of SW documentary they decided to make Leia Luke's sister only when they did RotJ

Obviously they wouldn't have make Leia kiss Luke in the previous film if they knew

[Andy 4,119]

Why would he write the scene with the intention of her being Luke's sister, but then have them kiss in the same film?

I don't know what the ideas about the third film were in the writers' minds, but when you write something you have to be consequential about what your characters know and don't know. The kiss is elaborating on the relations between the characters established in the first film, regardless of what's going to be discovered next. If Lucas actually had in mind Leia as Luke's sister, I'd say it's neat writing.

Others would call it "icky".

[Brónach 1,302]

But that could, even should, have been written the same way even if they knew Because it serves its purpose, which has not to do with the father-son-sister storyline. Why would it be "icky", if the viewer doens't know? It's when you see the film again that it becomes funny.

I challenge anyone here to come up with a better solution to the scene, knowing that Leia is Luke's sister, and knowing that viewer isn't going to know that at the time.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I like the brother/sister thing. Most of my problems with the story are in the prequels. Uncle Owen being Anakin's stepbrother that he didn't know at all, Ben not being trained by Yoda, Yoda being such a major character and fighting the Emperor with lightsabers, the Emperor being the only intelligent guy and stupidly deceiving everyone, Ben being against taking Anakin and training him, which just seems contradictory to what he told Luke in the old ones, the clones, the clone wars, the droids meeting at the beginning of the prequels and destroying the magic of their characters, the Jedi being a bunch of dull, soulless, joyless monk types as opposed to normal people (or, err, Yodas) with powers like in the OT...the list goes on and on. Compared to all this shit, Jedi is like The Godfather Part II.

[Jay 37,346]

I basically agree with everything you said!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

In star wars telepathy only occurs between Force users:

- Vader-Luke, Obi wan-luke (well this is a force ghost thing), Luke-Leia, palpatine-anakin...

BTW, sepparated siblings at birth that have fell in love as adults has occured in the real word, and it is present in other fictional works.

Second if the luke-leia incestual kiss was really an issue in lucas mind, or a thing to fix because he decided leia was luke's sister in ROTJ and not ESB, he would have deleted the kiss scene or changed it in the SEs or DVDs.

I find the theory of the 'another' being anakin alive even more wicked than it being leia's.

I just cant believe someone would prefer obi wan lying to luke saying that Vader killed Anakin, and then anakin is somehow alive, that the real thing.

Sorry but the scenes in the emperor's throne room would neve have been surpassed with luke and his newly found father assaulting the death star to confornt and defeat Vader and the emperor. Is like some bad opera.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It actually does.

[Wojo 2,453]

In star wars telepathy only occurs between Force users:

- Vader-Luke, Obi wan-luke (well this is a force ghost thing), Luke-Leia, palpatine-anakin...

Good point, although at the time of Luke paging Leia in TESB, we had only witnessed Obi-Wan's disembodied ghost speak Luke a handful of times: to get him to leave the Death Star, again in the trench, and when Obi-Wan talked to Yoda and Luke in the hut. His appearance to Luke on Hoth and later on Dagobah were as visual ghosts. Vader contacting Luke as the Falcon fled Bespin came after the Luke/Leia communication, and any Palpatine/Anakin communication would have been way later in ROTJ and the prequels. It might be a distance thing, since the Emperor needed the holo-net to communicate to Vader on the Executor.

BTW, sepparated siblings at birth that have fell in love as adults has occured in the real word, and it is present in other fictional works.

Second if the luke-leia incestual kiss was really an issue in lucas mind, or a thing to fix because he decided leia was luke's sister in ROTJ and not ESB, he would have deleted the kiss scene or changed it in the SEs or DVDs.

Fair enough. Luke and Leia kiss twice onscreen. The first time, in the Death Star chasm, was just a small peck for luck, since they figured they might die in the attempt. Mafiosos kiss each other twice without sexual overtones, so too was this.

The second time is more easily explainable, since Leia and Han begin TESB bickering like they're already a couple, as she gazes at him longingly. Her kiss of Luke was specifically to make Han jealous. Sure, Luke enjoyed it, because he didn't know any better.

I find the theory of the 'another' being anakin alive even more wicked than it being leia's.

I just cant believe someone would prefer obi wan lying to luke saying that Vader killed Anakin, and then anakin is somehow alive, that the real thing.

Sorry but the scenes in the emperor's throne room would neve have been surpassed with luke and his newly found father assaulting the death star to confornt and defeat Vader and the emperor. Is like some bad opera.

Why? If that's the way it had been, you would never have known the difference. You would have accepted it as the way it happened, and lamented the possibility of Vader being Luke's real father as an alternate history possibility, just as some here are lamenting the Luke/Anakin vs. Emperor/Vader matchup as a story that never was. That would have presented the opportunity for a two-on-two duel in ROTJ instead of ROTS, which would have diluted the realization that unless Luke put an end to it, he was becoming his father, Vader, indicating a much stronger resolve in Luke, and part of Vader's motivation to save him.

So much more of Star Wars is already like some bad opera, that a bit more would not matter.

Whether the foundations for Vader as Luke's father in Star Wars is not totally relevant. The concept was presented in The Empire Strikes Back to take the story to its absolute darkest place. Hit after hit after hit assailed our characters and made them miserable. Their base is destroyed, the alliance splits up, Han is betrayed and captured, and then...Luke gets hit with the worst possible knowledge. It's meant to drain the audience's resolve, and it worked. I guess the part the older guys dislike is that it was true, instead of a Dark Lord's sick mind game meant to break the young Jedi's resolve as well.

Hey, why not make Obi-Wan Luke's father in a different parallel Star Wars universe?

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

A guess is that when filming ESB, GL was uncertain whether he wanted Luke and Leia to be brother and sister, and he wanted to keep this idea secret because it would not come into play until ROJ. So, perhaps the whole kissing scene was suggested by someone else and GL couldn't argue out of it without giving up the secret.

[Jay 37,346]

That doesnt seem likely at all

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

well lucas was not surrounded by 'yesmen' at that time yet...

[Brónach 1,302]

Then that scene wouldn't be part of his intended vision!

[skyy38 21]

Well, I went back and listened and, by golly, you were right! Same motif, technically speaking, but orchestrated differently and in a different key than the "full version".

For clarity, however, I offer up what I had worked out for myself based on what I was hearing, at the time. Take a listen:

http://soundcloud.com/skyy38/star-destroyer-breaks-orbit

[skyy38 21]

Sorry, man, but Steef is right. The pedal tone (the low note that is sustained beneath the entire motif) is different, which alters the way it feels somewhat, and the orchestration isn't exactly the same, but it's still the same four ascending chords.

I went back and listened to the "break orbit" Death Star motif, several times, before I could hear the ascending 4 chords, which are totally there.

I also found out a few other things as well.

As soon as I can assemble my findings in a way that makes sense, I'll tell you all about it.

[skyy38 21]

Finally got the revision done, which can be heard here:

http://soundcloud.co...f-whisper-final

Still working on my "white paper"- been a little busy lately.....