Orchestra playing vs. quality of music

[Matt C 452]

We've all heard what kind of orchestra musicians composers prefer. Some like Christopher Lennertz prefer the L.A. contract musicians because they want to keep the scoring business in L.A. running, while some like Desplat and Goldenthal like the technique and playing London musicians offer. Others like Goldsmith used whatever ensembles the production could afford, whether in London, L.A., Seattle or Hungary.

There's some scores I listen to, where I feel that the musicians just play the notes without putting real passion into it. I notice it a lot with the more recent L.A.-recorded scores, and oftentimes with orchestras unused to recording scores (like the West Australian Symphony Orchestra) where something feels off. On the other hand, with subpar scores recorded with passionate ensembles, there's this warmth and passion with the playing that lifts the music.

I know I'm going to get flack for this, but I feel the musicians used for a score like Batman Returns hurt the music in general. I think a more energetic or passionate orchestra could've made that score sparkle like the Sinfonia of London did for the first Batman. I'm not trashing L.A. union musicians or any orchestra BTW, it gets me to the topic at hand.

So what are your opinions?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't think anyone can listen to Rambo III and deny that an orchestra can obliterate good music.

[Datameister 2,037]

I don't have too much input to offer on specific orchestras, but generally speaking, I 100% agree that a bad performance can make it very difficult to find the merit in a sublime piece of music. Case in point: all those City of Prague Philharmonic re-recordings, especially earlier ones. Most of them have content that ranges from good to outstanding, but performances that range from passable to utterly cringe-inducing. (No offense to any of its players...) Most actual film score recordings don't fare that poorly, but there are still some that would have really benefited from the sound of an enthusiastic, technically excellent, well-recorded orchestra.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

On the other hand, with subpar scores recorded with passionate ensembles, there's this warmth and passion with the playing that lifts the music.

Examples?

[mahler3 478]

Much of the Prague problems were due to lack of rehearsal timings, rushed recording sessions etc. James Fitzpatrick recently admitted himself that some of those old recordings were poor.

There are some London Symphony, Royal Philharmonic and other famous orchestra ensemble recordings which are either poorly recorded (with mistakes and errors not being corrected) or mixed badly.

There's a Roy Budd recording of Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom which is pretty flat sounding and a Stanley Baxter conducted performance of Raiders and Superman which feature a number of fluffed notes by players, which should have been re-done.

At the end of the day, musicians are only human!

[Matt C 452]

On the other hand, with subpar scores recorded with passionate ensembles, there's this warmth and passion with the playing that lifts the music.

Examples?

The Expendables

Megamind

Unknown

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I think the Holywood studio symphony sounds as good as the LSO.

Or at least, williams make them to. (ie TOD, KOTCS...)

[Quintus 5,399]

I think Batman Returns is brilliantly played and recorded.

The first example of good music; rubbish performance (and recording) that springs to mind is Superman II.

[Matt C 452]

The first example of good music; rubbish performance (and recording) that springs to mind is Superman II.

I honestly think that was plagued by an smaller orchestra size, plus awful recording and mastering (it sounded like a marching band). I listened to a "remastered" version of Superman II's main titles, and it sounds so much better.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Sometimes, at points, I feel like The Phantom Menace lacks the passion of a typical JW/LSO score. The playing seems very...rigid. It's technically impressive, but something seems off. And it isn't what Williams composed, either.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Whatever you do, don't listen to Prague's rerecording of Pirates Of The Caribbean.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Case in point: all those City of Prague Philharmonic re-recordings, especially earlier ones. Most of them have content that ranges from good to outstanding, but performances that range from passable to utterly cringe-inducing. (No offense to any of its players...) Most actual film score recordings don't fare that poorly, but there are still some that would have really benefited from the sound of an enthusiastic, technically excellent, well-recorded orchestra.

A lot of the blame has to lie with Nic Raine, not just the players. Many of his by-ear transcriptions of cues are so poor, that any orchestra would be screwed. Even then, I'm not big on the acoustics of the hall, the recording techniques (or lack of) used, and general production.

[Datameister 2,037]

Are those really performed from by-ear transcriptions? I never got that impression from the ones I've listened to...they always sounded to me like they were using the original arrangements, but with really poor technique, acoustics, and physical instruments themselves.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Are those really performed from by-ear transcriptions? I never got that impression from the ones I've listened to...they always sounded to me like they were using the original arrangements, but with really poor technique, acoustics, and physical instruments themselves.

I know that his Bond re-recordings were, at least. They had to be.

[Datameister 2,037]

Mmm, I haven't heard those. Most of the ones I've heard are Williams, and I do hear a lot of the same subtleties in the orchestration that I hear in the originals. Just very poorly performed.

[Matt C 452]

Whatever you do, don't listen to Prague's rerecording of Pirates Of The Caribbean.

There are some aspects of the Prague album that's better. The lack of electronics and synths, for instance. There are some timing and mixing issues with the third film's cues, but the emphasis on the choir in "I Don't Think Now Is the Best Time" is great.

[fommes 153]

Whatever you do, don't listen to Pirates Of The Caribbean.

At last, redemption!

[Ollie 1,059]

Sometimes, at points, I feel like The Phantom Menace lacks the passion of a typical JW/LSO score. The playing seems very...rigid. It's technically impressive, but something seems off. And it isn't what Williams composed, either.

The LSO's playing on the prequels lacks the punch of the original trilogy, especially the brass. Some people have suggested it's due to the way the score was recorded to modern technology screwing it up.

There are quite a few Goldsmith scores that have rather poor to average orchestra performances but the music is still enjoyable.

[Quintus 5,399]

Whatever you do, don't listen to Prague's rerecording of Pirates Of The Caribbean.

Have you heard the RPO recording? It's brilliant. Actually manages to make it not sound like RC.

[Brónach 1,301]

Whatever you do, don't listen to Prague's rerecording of Pirates Of The Caribbean.

Have you heard the RPO recording? It's brilliant. Actually manages to make it not sound like RC.

It's So. Much. Cooler. than the original.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The original recording of Conan The Barbarian has its share of performance issues.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Sometimes, at points, I feel like The Phantom Menace lacks the passion of a typical JW/LSO score. The playing seems very...rigid. It's technically impressive, but something seems off. And it isn't what Williams composed, either.

The LSO's playing on the prequels lacks the punch of the original trilogy, especially the brass. Some people have suggested it's due to the way the score was recorded to modern technology screwing it up.

It could be down to Shawn Murphy's (the prequel's recording engineer, who replaced Eric Tomlinson) choice of mics, and his use of the Decca tree.

http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf

Go to Page 33.

[Ollie 1,059]

The original recording of Conan The Barbarian has its share of performance issues.

But it's also raw and aggressive and fits the title character. It doesn't subtract from the listening experience as much as say Rambo III's bad performance.

[Matt C 452]

Have you heard the RPO recording? It's brilliant. Actually manages to make it not sound like RC.

You're referring to this, right?

Superb. I might have to import that "Greatest Film Classics" CD too.

[Quintus 5,399]

I very much doubt that is exactly the same performance as the one I referred to (I purchased an mp3 of the RPO recording), but yes, you get a rough idea.

[crocodile 7,989]

It sounds like Patrick Doyle's Thor now.

Karol

[Brónach 1,301]

It sounds like Patrick Doyle's Thor now.

Karol

Yep, like a less somber version of Thor.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I dunno what the hell you guys are smoking, Rambo III sounds fine.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It doesn't though it's not as bad as some are saying.

The original recording of Conan The Barbarian has its share of performance issues.

But it's also raw and aggressive and fits the title character. It doesn't subtract from the listening experience

I agree 100%!

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Sometimes, at points, I feel like The Phantom Menace lacks the passion of a typical JW/LSO score. The playing seems very...rigid. It's technically impressive, but something seems off. And it isn't what Williams composed, either.

The LSO's playing on the prequels lacks the punch of the original trilogy, especially the brass. Some people have suggested it's due to the way the score was recorded to modern technology screwing it up.

Sorry, the LSO brass is the only one who can play star wars perfectly.

And the prequels have LSO brass. No other prchestra can make the main titles sound like that.

The main titles in the cd 'hollywood sound' recorded with new techniques, sounds just like that too.

[Faleel 5,340]

the main titles in the PT sound flat

[Kevin 22]

I don't think anyone can listen to Rambo III and deny that an orchestra can obliterate good music.

Or Hoosiers.

Same orchestra incidentally...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

the main titles in the PT sound flat

Yes. That opening burst just sounds wrong.

[Datameister 2,037]

I think the TPM recording of the main title sounds fantastic. It's definitely a more polished, refined sound - it doesn't have the bold enthusiasm you'd hear in older LSO recordings. The appeal of the TPM recording is more in its brightness and technical precision. (I do rather wish they'd done fresh recordings for AOTC and ROTS, though.)

The only "real" recording of the main title that I'm not so fond of is the one for ROTJ. It's just...lacking at times. Now that I listen to it again, I'm realizing that a lot of the performance is perfectly adequate, but some strange moments in the trumpets and the overall sound quality make it my least favorite recording of the four.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It sounds best on the original ROTJ album.

[indy4 155]

Yeah, I think TPM is one of the best examples of a great orchestra in film scores that I can think of. The original Star Wars is great, especially in its sheer enthusiasm, but there there are a good number of technical errors. Mostly sections not being perfectly sychronized.

[Faleel 5,340]

the TPM recording sounds like "Here we go again....gosh I'm tired"

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

I dunno what the hell you guys are smoking, Rambo III sounds fine.

Listen to Preparations and then try to tell me with a straight face that those percussionists know how to keep a rhythm.

[Datameister 2,037]

the TPM recording sounds like "Here we go again....gosh I'm tired"

Nah. That's how the rerecorded Raiders material in KOTCS sounds to me, so I know what you mean, but the TPM recording of the main title just sounds very polished to me, and lacking in the sort of almost-too-excited enthusiasm you get in, say, ANH. In this particular case, it's a tradeoff between technical precision and that adventurous, youthful spirit.

[Faleel 5,340]

the TPM recording sounds like "Here we go again....gosh I'm tired"

Nah. The main title just sounds very polished to me, and lacking in the sort of almost-too-excited enthusiasm....it's a tradeoff between technical precision and that adventurous, youthful spirit.

and what is the difference between that and what I said?

[Datameister 2,037]

It's not an either/or sort of thing. There are recordings that are somewhere between "okay, guys, c'mon, let's blow until our lips fall off!" and "ooookay, here we go again...must stay awake...", and I think the TPM recording is one of 'em. It sounds professional. If the sound quality and mix and whatnot were bad, than yeah, it'd be bad, but since both are outstanding, I can enjoy the recording plenty.

I'm not trying to make a case for one being better than the other; I'm just saying that I can appreciate both of them for their rather different types of appeal.

[Matt C 452]

I thought I'd bring this topic back up, what with the spate of online companies specializing in remote services. A few are based in the U.S. (like Seattle Music), but a lot of them are based in Eastern Europe.

 

East Coast Scoring (Boston, MA)

Tadlow (England / Czech Republic)

$99 Orchestra (Portugal)

Czech Recordings, Orchestra.Net (Czech Republic)

Dynamedion (Germany / Hungary)

SIF 309, Four for Music Ltd (Bulgaria)

The Remote Orchestra (Georgia)

F.A.M.E.'s Recording Studio (Macedonia)

 

The wealth of options will probably be good in terms of securing live recordings, rather than samples, but the quality of the ensembles could be iffy.