The Themes of The Adventures of Tintin

[filmmusic 1,823]

filmmusic was referring to a third theme IN ADDITION to the A and B versions of Tintin's theme, which appear in track 1

No, i wasn't referring to a third theme. I was referring to the one that you say it's B version of Tintin's theme. ;-)

[Josh500 1,615]

I doubt it's a bad guys theme because of its prominent use in "The Adventures of Tintin"

But that is what I explained with my depiction of the 2 themes.

It's NOT the same theme in The Adventures of Tintin track.

Yes, exactly.

Jason and Incanus, listen to both themes again . . . back to back. They are not the same!

[Incanus 5,713]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but they are not the same, as I said above.

You don't need to study muscial theory for that, really. It's just JW having fun.

Actually knowing musical theory would help since you could spot musical relations in a whole different way than by listening to by ear alone. Williams' music is always thematically quite clear but he does have these subtleties in the mix every once in a while. Thematic writing is more than making the music happy or sad as the scene dictates but also manipulating the material and varying it which can take it to a quite a different direction and form than the original version. As it has been repeated a few times here by me and others, let's just wait and see the film first to get a better picture of what this motif might stand for.

Well, this is film music, and this is not that complex (say, like some classical pieces might be), and that's by necessity. If the music were that complex, the audience would have trouble following the film because they would be distracted by the music. What you hear and instantly recognize are the themes, and they serve a purpose. Of course, you might have to listen to the cues a couple of times to really get into them, but if you need to study musical theory to get all the connections etc., then that's going too far.

You just over simplified the whole concept and conception of film music there Josh.

And by all means be right, be wrong. As long as we get some clarity to this little ditty then all is well.

[Josh500 1,615]

And oh, just listen closely to the examples of this theme in "Pursuit" again! Do you really think those dark, slightly menacing and mischievous passages represent Tintin?

From that alone, I can say with a near certainty that this theme isn't Tintin's.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Ok. I provide timestamps.

The theme referred in track 1 as Tintin's theme version B is NOT the same theme that is in ALL the other tracks as tintin's theme B.

(they have relations in the first phrase, but they aren't the same)

here we go:

track 1:

0.00-0.12 (this is the complete default version of the theme) [14 bars]

0.12-0.25 (again the complete theme a bit altered at the end)(when I say altered it's usually the last 2-3 bars out of 14)

0.25-0.37 (the complete theme again altered in the end)

0.39-0.52 (complete theme altered in the end)

1.21-1.28 (half the theme)

1.28-1.31 (only the 2 first phrases)

1.50-1.58 (complete theme altered in the end)

2.22-2.34 (complete theme altered in the end)

2.39-2.46 (start of the theme + 2 repetitions of its first phrase)

so, we hear it all the time in the bass, that's why i said in another thread, the whole piece is a kind of passacaglia.

and here's again the two themes that are confused:

although i support the opinion that the one referred as tintin's theme B version, might be for a bad guy. We'll just have to look at the film.

[Josh500 1,615]

You just over simplified the whole concept and conception of film music there Josh.

And by all means be right, be wrong. As long as we get some clarity to this little ditty then all is well.

I am not oversimpliflying things; you may be making them more complicated than they are.

You have to know many years ago (when I was 16-18), I actually studied music. I studied "Harmonielehre," counterpoint, and composition. And I can tell you, while JW is a master when it comes to evoking feelings and atmosphere through orchestration and creating fitting themes for various characters and situations (all the things film scores should do, in other words), his musical output for films as a whole is not that complex. And film scores don't really need to be--more, they shouldn't be. It would be a distraction if it were.

Now, his concert works... that's another matter, of course. (But I haven't studied them deeply enough to judge one way or the other.)

But yeah, we'll see it in the movie, either way, once it's out!

although i support the opinion that the one referred as tintin's theme B version, might be for a bad guy. We'll just have to look at the film.

You do or don't support the theory that it's for the bad guy?

As for me, I say just listen to this theme in "Pursuit"! And you know it's for the bad guy. I mean, there is no way that represents Tintin (unless Tintin happens to have some sort of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing going on... )

[Incanus 5,713]

Well now that we have settled that we might tentatively say that it is a theme for the bad guys. If I can surmise anything from the plot details we have now, the baddies feature in all those scenes where the motif appears on the album. It does sound rather sly and sneaky as I have thought from the beginning. Could be a theme for Sakkharine then.

Still waiting for those who have seen the film to comment.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, we've known all along that at least one of the bad guys is along for that chase ride as well (as we saw in the trailer).

So it would have been weird if there had been no "bad guy theme" at all in "Pursuit."

[Incanus 5,713]

Well, we've known all along that at least one of the bad guys is along for that chase ride as well (as we saw in the trailer).

So it would have been weird if there had been no "bad guy theme" at all in "Pursuit."

Actually it was one of the things bothering me a bit. No clear bad guy theme. But perhaps this might be changing just now.

I was more concerned for the Introducing the Thompsons and Snowy's Chase where this theme is featured in a rather playful guise. Would make sense if Sakkharine or his henchmen were about. In the chase there is quick subtle quote of the motif which would be explained as the bad guy theme.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Listen to the opening of the first track. The opening 3 seconds contain what we have been calling the Tintin B theme. Listen to the Escape from Karaboudjan 0:11-0:13. Can you hear the similarity?

To me they sound quite similar but I hope we can get some kind of consensus about what this motif actually stands for and if The Adventures of Tintin actually has more than the Tintin A Theme in its jazzy contours.

At times like these I wish I could understand musical theory.

Incanus i don't know if you can read notes, but if you do, the two examples you say are depicted in my picture:

0.00-0.03 of track 1 is the 4 first bars of the second staff.

0.11-0.13 of Escape are the first 2 bars of the frist staff.

They are not the same.

the one is derived from the other, but they are not the same.

[Josh500 1,615]

the one is derived from the other, but they are not the same.

You know, I am not even sure of that.

[filmmusic 1,823]

although i support the opinion that the one referred as tintin's theme B version, might be for a bad guy. We'll just have to look at the film.

You do or don't support the theory that it's for the bad guy?

I said I support it. ;-)

the one that is referred as tintin's theme B in all the tracks EXCEPT track 1 (which is not the same theme anyway, as we said many times above)

the one is derived from the other, but they are not the same.

You know, I am not even sure of that.

well, the theme on top has just 2 notes more and different rhythmic values.

but both themes include the same notes arranged in the same way (G, C#,D, G on top)

[Incanus 5,713]

I believe you, I believe you. I am sure to change my analysis after we get some film to music confirmation on this "villain theory".

[Josh500 1,615]

well, the theme on top has just 2 notes more and different rhythmic values.

but both themes include the same notes arranged in the same way (G, C#,D, G on top)

Hmmm, yes, possibly.

Still, IMO they sound different enough that it might just have been coincidence...

[Incanus 5,713]

well, the theme on top has just 2 notes more and different rhythmic values.

but both themes include the same notes arranged in the same way (G, C#,D, G on top)

Hmmm, yes, possibly.

Still, IMO they sound different enough that it might just have been coincidence...

And you say that you don't need musical theory.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, coincidences happen... whether you are conversant in music theory or not.

Anyway, like I said, I doubt there is a connection; in the end they are (sound!) too different for there to be one.

[filmmusic 1,823]

here is the connection of the 3 themes (thus they are confused)

(Jason, when you see this, see the timestamps for the theme in track 1 I provide in an earlier post)

[Josh500 1,615]

This is a bit like saying, there is a connection between the "Home Alone Main Theme" and "Hedwig's Theme" and that theme from Hook (you know the one I mean)... Sure, they all start similarly, but there is no connection; it's just coincidence.

But anyway, I think we can say pretty definitely now that these are not the same themes (regardless of whether one is derived from the other)!

[filmmusic 1,823]

Sure, they all start similarly, but there is no connection; it's just coincidence.

No, Josh, i don't think it's coincidence.

If you read the Thematic process in music of Reti, it shows such similarities all the time in classical composers.

For an experienced composer this is many times carefully considered.

For an inexperienced composer (like myself), such similarities come up as coincidental, but again show the connection of the themes..

(I'm doing my Ph.D on analysis of Williams' music, and there are many connections of themes in his scores that aren't at all obvious on hearing, but are obvious after careful musicological examination. I will have finished i think in 1,5 year, and I'll give my results then) ;-)

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, mind you, I am not ruling out a connection. There probably even was one in JW's mind when he wrote the themes...

And yet, I can't quite rule out a coincidence either. I mean, coincidences happen all the time, too. With so many themes here, it's not surprising when two of the themes happen to have a similar structure.

[Homeboy 0]

here is the connection of the 3 themes (thus they are confused)

(Jason, when you see this, see the timestamps for the theme in track 1 I provide in an earlier post)

Shouldn't the third note of Tintin's Theme (your last bar) be a D instead of a B..?

And do you know the chords that go with the last three notes of the theme. I think the chord progression in this key would start with G - Eb - G - ? ? ?

Hope you can help me out..!

[filmmusic 1,823]

well, I would insist too that it's not a coincidemece (anyway, i'm very stubborn, mind you, hehe)

It may be a coincidence when we're talking about the theme of one composer comparing to the them of another composer.

But when we're talking about the themes of ONE composer in the SAME film, of themes using the SAME characteristic gestures (the C#-D-G gesture), then it's not a coincidence.

[Josh500 1,615]

Shouldn't the third note of Tintin's Theme (your last bar) be a D instead of a B..?

I don't think so. If the 3rd note was a D, then the 8th note would have to be a D too, wouldn't it?

well, I would insist too that it's not a coincidemece (anyway, i'm very stubborn, mind you, hehe)

It may be a coincidence when we're talking about the theme of one composer comparing to the them of another composer.

But when we're talking about the themes of ONE composer in the SAME film, of themes using the SAME characteristic gestures (the C#-D-G gesture), then it's not a coincidence.

Well, okay. I am starting to lean your way... you're probably right!

But again, what we have established here now is that the so-called "Tintin B version" in the first track is NOT the same as the "Tintin B versions" in the other tracks (connection or no connection). I believe that's what we started out to discuss.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Shouldn't the third note of Tintin's Theme (your last bar) be a D instead of a B..?

And do you know the chords that go with the last three notes of the theme. I think the chord progression in this key would start with G - Eb - G - ? ? ?

Hope you can help me out..!

Sorry? I'm confused here.

You say the 3rd note in the last staff? (not bar)

well, i consider this the default version of the theme. there are many variants that could use a D instead of a B.

there is also another version that rearranges the 2 first notes of bar 1 & 3 (see page 1 of this thread with my depiction of the 2 versions of the theme)

But again, what we have established here now is that the so-called "Tintin B version" in the first track is NOT the same as the "Tintin B versions" in the other tracks (connection or no connection). I believe that's what we started out to discuss.

yes, exactly! ;-)

i hope Incanus and Jason (when he get's back) understand that.

[Homeboy 0]

Shouldn't the third note of Tintin's Theme (your last bar) be a D instead of a B..?

And do you know the chords that go with the last three notes of the theme. I think the chord progression in this key would start with G - Eb - G - ? ? ?

Hope you can help me out..!

Sorry? I'm confused here.

You say the 3rd note in the last staff? (not bar)

well, i consider this the default version of the theme. there are many variants that could use a D instead of a B.

there is also another version that rearranges the 2 first notes of bar 1 & 3 (see page 1 of this thread with my depiction of the 2 versions of the theme)

I looked at page 1, but I can only find notation of the Tintin Theme B (but perhaps I didn't look well enough...).

I meant staff, not bar, you're right..!

Oh, and filmmusic: can you please help me out with the chords........??

[Incanus 5,713]

But again, what we have established here now is that the so-called "Tintin B version" in the first track is NOT the same as the "Tintin B versions" in the other tracks (connection or no connection). I believe that's what we started out to discuss.

yes, exactly! ;-)

i hope Incanus and Jason (when he get's back) understand that.

Yes I understand very well now, at least after this strings of posts.

[Josh500 1,615]

Hmmm...

Okay, just listened to all 3 themes again. And I gotta say I am still not quite convinced (that there is a connection between these 3 themes). Yes, the progession of C#-D-G is the same in all three examples, but that's really the only solid connection. Other than that, there is neither a rhythmic nor contextual connection.

And the progression of just 3 notes is not a lot to base this theory on, my friend.

I am leaning toward coincidence again!

[Brónach 1,301]

Shouldn't themes basically be distinguishable from each other? (Runs for cover)

[filmmusic 1,823]

I looked at page 1, but I can only find notation of the Tintin Theme B (but perhaps I didn't look well enough...).

I meant staff, not bar, you're right..!

Oh, and filmmusic: can you please help me out with the chords........??

Oh, yes you're right. I've put it in an other thread.

anyway..

the chord progression in a defult version of the theme (because the chords change all the time) would be ( as in the track the pursuit of falcon):

if we're in G:

bar 1: G major

bar 2: Eb major

bar 3: G major

bar 4: the chord G-Bb-C# in the first 2 notes, and G major in the last one.

[Incanus 5,713]

Shouldn't themes basically be distinguishable from each other? (Runs for cover)

Yes that is what Josh has been trying to say quite vocally. I agree but I also understand that a composer can also develop and vary themes and their different versions, sometimes e.g. inverting them and changing their melodic, rhythmic form etc. content for a reason or another.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Hmmm...

Okay, just listened to all 3 themes again. And I gotta say I am still not quite convinced (that there is a connection between these 3 themes). Yes, the progession of C#-D-G is the same in all three examples, but that's really the only solid connection. Other than that, there is neither a rhythmic nor contextual connection.

And the progression of just 3 notes is not a lot to base this theory on, my friend.

I am leaning toward coincidence again!

ok, I'm not doing anything else to convince you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've done my part.

oh, just wanted to say this (hehe)

the progression of the 3 notes is a lot to base this theory on, because they are not ordinary notes, e.g. C-D-E.

the gesture is VERY characteristic in all three themes. C# - D (small note values) to G above (long note value)

Anyway, i suggest you read the book i mentioned earlier (Thematic proccess in music by Reti) and you'll understand better the whole theory of the connections..

[Josh500 1,615]

Shouldn't themes basically be distinguishable from each other? (Runs for cover)

Yes that is what Josh has been trying to say quite vocally. I agree but I also understand that a composer can also develop and vary themes and their different versions, sometimes e.g. inverting them and changing their melodic, rhythmic form etc. content for a reason or another.

Yes, quite right.

And by coincidence I mean, for example, such a scenario: JW sits at the piano, comes up with the Theme for Tintin (version A). Then he has to come up with a theme for one of the villains. So he sits down at the piano again and plays around, throwing ideas back and forth in his mind. And he comes up with a different theme... but which happens to have a slightly similar structure (or similar chord progression, similar rhythmic interval etc.) as the theme he wrote an hour ago (Tintin's Theme). Does this mean one theme is derived from the other? I would argue no. They are quite different themes... and yet somewhat similar, due to coincidence.

[Homeboy 0]

I looked at page 1, but I can only find notation of the Tintin Theme B (but perhaps I didn't look well enough...).

I meant staff, not bar, you're right..!

Oh, and filmmusic: can you please help me out with the chords........??

Oh, yes you're right. I've put it in an other thread.

anyway..

the chord progression in a defult version of the theme (because the chords change all the time) would be ( as in the track the pursuit of falcon):

if we're in G:

bar 1: G major

bar 2: Eb major

bar 3: G major

bar 4: the chord G-Bb-C# in the first 2 notes, and G major in the last one.

Thanks..!

About bar 4: if you add an Eb as bass, you'd get a Eb7 chord... Could that be it, or does Williams intentionally want the G as bass tone (thus making an Gm-5 chord..??).

[Josh500 1,615]

Hmmm...

Okay, just listened to all 3 themes again. And I gotta say I am still not quite convinced (that there is a connection between these 3 themes). Yes, the progession of C#-D-G is the same in all three examples, but that's really the only solid connection. Other than that, there is neither a rhythmic nor contextual connection.

And the progression of just 3 notes is not a lot to base this theory on, my friend.

I am leaning toward coincidence again!

ok, I'm not doing anything else to convince you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've done my part.

oh, just wanted to say this (hehe)

the progression of the 3 notes is a lot to base this theory on, because they are not ordinary notes, e.g. C-D-E.

the gesture is VERY characteristic in all three themes. C# - D (small note values) to G above (long note value)

Anyway, i suggest you read the book i mentioned earlier (Thematic proccess in music by Reti) and you'll understand better the whole theory of the connections..

Well, I will keep an open mind about it, anyway. Let's leave it at that.

[filmmusic 1,823]

I looked at page 1, but I can only find notation of the Tintin Theme B (but perhaps I didn't look well enough...).

I meant staff, not bar, you're right..!

Oh, and filmmusic: can you please help me out with the chords........??

Oh, yes you're right. I've put it in an other thread.

anyway..

the chord progression in a defult version of the theme (because the chords change all the time) would be ( as in the track the pursuit of falcon):

if we're in G:

bar 1: G major

bar 2: Eb major

bar 3: G major

bar 4: the chord G-Bb-C# in the first 2 notes, and G major in the last one.

Thanks..!

About bar 4: if you add an Eb as bass, you'd get a Eb7 chord... Could that be it, or does Williams intentionally want the G as bass tone (thus making an Gm-5 chord..??).

well, i don't know what the note in the bass is. yes, it could be an Eb7 chord. (the theory of Gm5 is highly unlike)

Shouldn't themes basically be distinguishable from each other? (Runs for cover)

Yes that is what Josh has been trying to say quite vocally. I agree but I also understand that a composer can also develop and vary themes and their different versions, sometimes e.g. inverting them and changing their melodic, rhythmic form etc. content for a reason or another.

Yes, quite right.

And by coincidence I mean, for example, such a scenario: JW sits at the piano, comes up with the Theme for Tintin (version A). Then he has to come up with a theme for one of the villains. So he sits down at the piano again and plays around, throwing ideas back and forth in his mind. And he comes up with a different theme... but which happens to have a slightly similar structure (or similar chord progression, similar rhythmic interval etc.) as the theme he wrote an hour ago (Tintin's Theme). Does this mean one theme is derived from the other? I would argue no. They are quite different themes... and yet somewhat similar, due to coincidence.

yes,as you put it again I wouldn't call it a coincidence. I am starting to believe that we have a different meaning of the word "coincidence", thus the confusion.

eg. the inner procedure in the 3 themes is this:

1) we have the basic gesture of the opening phrase in track 1

2) by interpolating 2 more notes we have tintin's theme referred as B version.

3) by interpolating the same bar in front of 2 groups of notes of the previous theme, we have tintin's theme.

Of course John Williams didn't say ( i assume): aaah, well, i have this theme. i'll put 2 notes more and I'll make another theme! I'll change these notes here and it will be the villains theme.

but as he composed one basic theme, he has in his mind the motifs , and notes and gestures of the theme (in his subconsious) and as he's trying many things in the piano as you said, the other themes derive..

[Homeboy 0]

I looked at page 1, but I can only find notation of the Tintin Theme B (but perhaps I didn't look well enough...).

I meant staff, not bar, you're right..!

Oh, and filmmusic: can you please help me out with the chords........??

Oh, yes you're right. I've put it in an other thread.

anyway..

the chord progression in a defult version of the theme (because the chords change all the time) would be ( as in the track the pursuit of falcon):

if we're in G:

bar 1: G major

bar 2: Eb major

bar 3: G major

bar 4: the chord G-Bb-C# in the first 2 notes, and G major in the last one.

Thanks..!

About bar 4: if you add an Eb as bass, you'd get a Eb7 chord... Could that be it, or does Williams intentionally want the G as bass tone (thus making an Gm-5 chord..??).

well, i don't know what the note in the bass is. yes, it could be an Eb7 chord. (the theory of Gm5 is highly unlike)

No, not Gm5... Gm-5 (a Db instead of a D).

But I personally think it's an Eb7.

Thanks for your help anyway..!

[Josh500 1,615]

yes,as you put it again I wouldn't call it a coincidence. I am starting to believe that we have a different meaning of the word "coincidence", thus the confusion.

eg. the inner procedure in the 3 themes is this:

1) we have the basic gesture of the opening phrase in track 1

2) by interpolating 2 more notes we have tintin's theme referred as B version.

3) by interpolating the same bar in front of 2 groups of notes of the previous theme, we have tintin's theme.

Of course John Williams didn't say ( i assume): aaah, well, i have this theme. i'll put 2 notes more and I'll make another theme! I'll change these notes here and it will be the villains theme.

Ahhh ok. Yes, we have a differing understanding of the term "coincidence." Well, for me one theme is clearly derived from another, if the composer actually makes a conscious effort to create one theme based on another... And I don't think that's the case here.

As you say:

but as he composed one basic theme, he has in his mind the motifs , and notes and gestures of the theme (in his subconsious) and as he's trying many things in the piano as you said, the other themes derive..

That might very well be true here, very likely even. And I would say this is just coincidence for there was no conscious effort involved...

But anyway, we might be getting into too deep a discussion here. The only way to find out for sure, probably, is to ask JW personally.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Well, from his various interviews he always says that he may spend weeks on just the themes of a film, trying this and that.

So i believe he has a lot of time to think all these things very carefully before submitting the final versions of the themes..

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Shouldn't themes basically be distinguishable from each other? (Runs for cover)

Yes that is what Josh has been trying to say quite vocally. I agree but I also understand that a composer can also develop and vary themes and their different versions, sometimes e.g. inverting them and changing their melodic, rhythmic form etc. content for a reason or another.

Yes, quite right.

And by coincidence I mean, for example, such a scenario: JW sits at the piano, comes up with the Theme for Tintin (version A). Then he has to come up with a theme for one of the villains. So he sits down at the piano again and plays around, throwing ideas back and forth in his mind. And he comes up with a different theme... but which happens to have a slightly similar structure (or similar chord progression, similar rhythmic interval etc.) as the theme he wrote an hour ago (Tintin's Theme). Does this mean one theme is derived from the other? I would argue no. They are quite different themes... and yet somewhat similar, due to coincidence.

Please forgive me if I misunderstand you here, but this sounds as if you imply that Williams would play around, find one theme, then play around some more, find another theme, which coincidentally contains the same central motivic cell, and not notice... or say "gee, that's funny, I came up with the same motif twice!" We have three thematic ideas in the film that all contain the same motivic cell - it's highly unlikely that this is a coincidence, because as filmmusic pointed out, this progression of three notes is not a simple arpeggiated chord (like c e g) or a snippet of a scale (like e f g), but a characteristic motif that jumps out at the ear the first time you hear it.

I think that this is Williams way of unifying the musical vocabulary for the film - by basing several themes on the same core cell, it defines the "sound" of the score, as much as the choice of special instrumental colors (btw, it's also described as one of the techniques of organising your material pre-scoring in the "film scoring bible", On The Track), regardless if the themes are all supposed to be linked to the same character or not.

Think of it this way: in music there's always an ambiguity of meaning, as music itself doesn't "mean" anything in the concrete sense, meaning in music comes by association and interpolation. Musical logic and contextual logic are seperate things. So in conclusion I would say, there's a clear musical connection between the themes, but if there's also a contextual connection in the movie (either all themes being connected to Tintin, our Tintin and who/whatever the other theme stands for being connected), remains to be see from the film itself

/Addendum: The feeling I get from the B theme is that it could either be a villain's theme, as speculated, or a kind of "sneaking around, detective work, meddling in baddies's business" theme for Tintin, while the A theme is obviously his heroic theme

[Jilal 569]

So Alexander, since you've actually seen the film can you tell us what each of the two different Unicorn/Mystery Themes represents? Is one for the ship and one for the scrolls?

What about the A Version and B Version of Tintin's Theme? Is there a specific reason either one is used or does Williams just use both as a generic main theme?

And finally, how about that theme in The Escape From The Karaboudjan from 2:25-2:40, 2:53-2:56, and 3:04-3:09? Does it represent a specific character (Alan, and Merkel has suggested? Or perhaps Sackharine?)

2:25-2:40 from Escape from the Karaboudjan does not represent any character.

The A and B theme thing is like Indy.

Can you give track times for the Mystery and Unicorn themes?

[crocodile 7,989]

And finally, how about that theme in The Escape From The Karaboudjan from 2:25-2:40, 2:53-2:56, and 3:04-3:09? Does it represent a specific character (Alan, and Merkel has suggested? Or perhaps Sackharine?)

2:25-2:40 from Escape from the Karaboudjan does not represent any character.

It is a general bad guys' theme and appears, I think, only in the first part of the film.

Karol

[Jilal 569]

And finally, how about that theme in The Escape From The Karaboudjan from 2:25-2:40, 2:53-2:56, and 3:04-3:09? Does it represent a specific character (Alan, and Merkel has suggested? Or perhaps Sackharine?)

2:25-2:40 from Escape from the Karaboudjan does not represent any character.

It is a general bad guys' theme and appears, I think, only in the first part of the film.

Karol

Well it plays when

Sakharine is mad at Alan after Tintin &co escape

I only heard it once though.

[crocodile 7,989]

No it appears a couple of times

when we see the character.

Karol

[Jay 37,322]

Karol, when we see Alan, or when we see Sacharine?

Alexander, the very first post of this thread contains track times for the Unicorn Theme and Secondary Unicorn theme. We're trying to ask you if they both represent the same thing, or one is for the ship and one is for the scrolls, or something else.

[crocodile 7,989]

Sacharine. But I'd say it might be just a generic bad guys' theme, as I said before. It might refer to all of them.

Karol

[Jay 37,322]

Williams can definitely be known to play loose with his themes and their identities

[crocodile 7,989]

Speaking of which, it reminds me a great deal of Panama Hat's theme from LC.

At 1:53:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaDDZObC0Y

Karol

[filmmusic 1,823]

Just made this.

Some further music connections in the themes of Tintin showing the musical procedures (on the left):

(all themes are in G to see the connections clearly)

[Jay 37,322]

Woah.

[Josh500 1,615]

Wow. Good job filmmusic!

Still, my point still stands: I think if you looked deep and long enough, you can find any connectionsn you want to, and we must be careful not to get carried away. If two themes are supposed to have a real, solid and conscious connection, said connection should be more obvious... otherwise I will just chalk it up to "coincidence" (although that doesn't mean of course, that JW himself doesn't notice the similarity, duh--he probably sees 100 times more than all of us combined ).

Please forgive me if I misunderstand you here, but this sounds as if you imply that Williams would play around, find one theme, then play around some more, find another theme, which coincidentally contains the same central motivic cell, and not notice... or say "gee, that's funny, I came up with the same motif twice!" We have three thematic ideas in the film that all contain the same motivic cell - it's highly unlikely that this is a coincidence, because as filmmusic pointed out, this progression of three notes is not a simple arpeggiated chord (like c e g) or a snippet of a scale (like e f g), but a characteristic motif that jumps out at the ear the first time you hear it.

I think that this is Williams way of unifying the musical vocabulary for the film - by basing several themes on the same core cell, it defines the "sound" of the score, as much as the choice of special instrumental colors (btw, it's also described as one of the techniques of organising your material pre-scoring in the "film scoring bible", On The Track), regardless if the themes are all supposed to be linked to the same character or not.

Think of it this way: in music there's always an ambiguity of meaning, as music itself doesn't "mean" anything in the concrete sense, meaning in music comes by association and interpolation. Musical logic and contextual logic are seperate things. So in conclusion I would say, there's a clear musical connection between the themes, but if there's also a contextual connection in the movie (either all themes being connected to Tintin, our Tintin and who/whatever the other theme stands for being connected), remains to be see from the film itself

Well, my point was simply, like I said above, we should be careful not to get carried away and read too much into these things. Still, again, I will keep an open mind about it!

/Addendum: The feeling I get from the B theme is that it could either be a villain's theme, as speculated, or a kind of "sneaking around, detective work, meddling in baddies's business" theme for Tintin, while the A theme is obviously his heroic theme

Exactly my feelings as well! But I am leaning more toward the bad guy theory, since if this was the secondary Tintin's theme, "Pursuit" would contain no "bad guy theme" at all... which I can't believe. But we will see soon when the movie is out.