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Dumbing down? I think not...


wanner251

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I've been a lurker for quite some time on this site, and over the past year or so, I've noticed people talking about John Williams basically rehashing himself in several permutations in his recent scores. Some people even seem to believe that he is dumbing things down for certain scores. I finally felt compelled to join up in order to provide what may be an alternate perspective. I think that I would more so like to encourage a discussion about this because all I seem to read is some version of "This score is great, but this one sucks". I haven't seen very much criticism that takes into account composer intent. Many people like to compare John Williams to other more modern film composers without realizing that they are divided by their very history, and therefore the intent of each are like apples and oranges.

Anyway, for those of you who believe that John Williams' greatness ended with Hook or Jurassic Park, and that he hasn't created anything drastically new since, I offer another idea. John Williams himself has stated that his job as a composer is to strip away all the extraneous elements until you are left with the most exemplary idea of what fits the screen, or character, or whatever he is trying to make into an auditory spectacle. In a sense, his approach is very much in the vain of "Simple is the ultimate sophistication". He has said that he works for more hours on his themes than he does composing the "incidental" music. To him, those beautifully dense and diverse action cues that we all love are easy for him to crank out, but his themes are his ultimately sophisticated works of art.

Now I believe that this idea has transcended into his "incidental" cues as well lately, which may sound like he is dumbing down his scores or rehashing material from before. I equate this to being more like his own unique brushstroke that he is constantly trying to apply and adapt to his new themes, and his idea of stripping things away rather than adding seems to (in my mind) contribute to this theory. We all believe that his approach is wonderful and unique, otherwise this board wouldn't exist, nor would we be a part of it. I don't think that we can assume that as John Williams is aging and gaining more experience, that his writing is becoming less mature. Artistically, that doesn't work in my mind. That would be like saying, "Oh sure, anyone could come up with the shark theme in Jaws" in about 2 minutes..." True, he doesn't always hit home runs, and he has definite strengths in certain genres and weaknesses in others. However, I think that his sophistication comes through in his simplicity. I believe that other composers try to mimic this approach because they understand what it is, but they never quite get it since their intent is very different.

It's like sculpting... these other composers would sculpt with clay in a way that they mold here and add here until they are finished. Whereas, the John Williams approach is more like sculpting a block of marble with a hammer and chisel, he just gets rid of everything that is NOT the sculpture, being able to identify what he is after before he even begins. There is something very profound in that kind of simplicity.

Anyway, I am very curious as to what you all think about this, and I'd like to get a discussion going where we can cite some examples of this or the contrary. I have been a fan of John williams for over 30 years, and for people to say he's "lost it" just doesn't make sense to me from an artist's perspective.

Let the discussion begin! :)

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Very well put. Williams himself has said on many occasions that the most difficult part of the scoring is finding out those perfect themes that would reflect the core ideas of the film. What comes afterward, the use and manipulation of that material that seems much easier to him. I think many who criticize his more recent output often complain about the complexity for complexity's sake, flurries of notes that do not strike them as effective in comparison as his alledged streamlined approach in the 1970's and 1980's. In part I think they do have a point although Williams' action writing for example shares many common elements with his modern since it is the same composer after all. It would be important to realize composer's personal growth and changing perspectives, need to evolve as a musician and also the changing times and demands of film composing that do follow trends that film composers have to follow very closely and can't avoid in their work no matter how successful or influential they are.

You bring up the "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" which is very true in Williams' case. I have called this same trait "clarity" in his writing, Williams' ability to condense abstractions, characters and moods into direct, accessible and memorable musical constructs. This is one of the central strengths of his writing. Your metaphor of sculpting is very apt one, since this is what Williams very much does and spends doing, finding the core elements and then building upon them. You could say once he finds the form of the statue (themes) inside marble he then refines it into the finished piece. Williams is also, even though always humbly denying of being a musicologist, very aware, be this trait unconscious or conscious, of the needs of the film and genre style wise and knows how to adapt to this. This gift of musical allusion, knowing where to employ certain musical forms and ideas to evoke a genre or period or style in the audience's mind, is something critics often call pastiche or stealing without realizing that the composer is infact making a connection to the subconscious of the listener whose Western ear can from its years and years of conditioning recognize these musical hints and stylings. Temp track issues of some scores aside, Williams usually captures the spirit of a genre without quoting anything from its canon directly.

Williams' brand of film music is old fashioned in that it, despite the composer's ardent denial of trying to achieve it, is trying to say something about the film, make a comment and impact of its own within the film while supporting it. This might sound polemic but that is how I see it. And this does not mean that there are not auteurs workings in the world of film music who wouldn't share this view of how music should work in a film but in the age of sound design, meandering hum and drone, this style of outwardly expressive music is seen old fashioned, blantant and obvious, gilding the lily, yet somehow it seems that the critics have forgotten that music has been and is intergral part of films. The use of music depends on the nature of the film of course but the cynical heightened realism of modern film making often misses the unseen but heard poetry that lies in the marriage of music and image. It is I believe this unseen but heard poetry that Williams has served all these years admirably with his clarity and simplicity and his wondrous ability to capture human heart and mind with music both direct and simple yet full of complexities.

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Good post OP, I agree with almost all of it (apart from you saying his thematic ideas have worked themselves into his incidental stuff lately - he's been doing that for decades)

Do people here really say "he's lost it", though? I don't think they do.

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Well even some fair criticism can be quite harsh hereabouts Quint, which might be construed as many people thinking JW has lost it.

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We are definitely off to a good start here. I agree with a great deal of what you have said. The interesting thing I find in your first paragraph is the bit about complexity for complexity's sake. It seems that in the effort to put his personal touch on what he sees, Williams has a tendency in this day and age to demand a bit much of his listener. For me, personally, I don't find it demanding at all, just brilliant. I also don't believe that he ever makes the decision to have such densely orchestrated music just for its own sake. Contrarily, it always seems to me that at least 90% of the time he has a very definite handle on every note, not only how it relates to the screen, but also how it relates to the rest of the score itself as its own work of art.

Oftentimes, I find other composers' works (especially their action cues) to be so rhythmically driven. I think they are trying to achieve that level of clarity that you are talking about, but they tend to miss the mark because the intent is entirely different. It's much easier to be clear when your music is rhythmically driven, I think. The idea of melody has become so much more difficult for composers because they know the kinds of standards that have already been set. I think many composers try to avoid it because getting involved too deeply in melody can make or break you these days. The misplacing of one note can sometimes throw the viewer off kilter, so every note must be chosen carefully.

Still I also agree that the art form itself has changed. If you look at Silvestri and Horner of the 80s and compare them to their own mid to late 90s counterparts, this is very evident. Interestingly, they were part of what ushered in the modern film score, but at the same time they were adapting to what it was to become. It makes for a very interesting transition. Willow and Braveheart are so radically different, as are Back to the Future and The Mummy Returns. It is difficult to tell if Silvestri and Horner were evolving and growing as musicians, or if they were merely adapting to what was a changing industry.

I think a great recent example of this in Williams' case was when he got put on the chopping block in the middle of the Harry Potter films. The director wanted to go with something more modern for the 4th film and onward. While all of the Harry Potter scores are quite excellent, everything recognizable that reaches out and grabs you emotionally and that embodies the world of the films comes from the first three, undeniably. I admit, that I was not very enamored with any of these scores at first, but as I continued to study them and listened more intently, so much of what I wrote at the beginning of this topic began to become so more more clear. It is very sad to me that we all have missed out on what he would have done, had he been trusted to continue. There is something so ultimately refined about these scores, and trust me, I've listened a great deal all the way back to Family Plot and his TV stuff with Gilligan's Island and Lost in Space. I think this refinement of theme and density of score is often overlooked because it is so easy to compare everything to the like of Star Wars and E.T. While those are both home runs and cast a huge shadow, we forget that John Williams is getting better. He did not peak in the 80s, though many people may think so.

Good post OP, I agree with almost all of it (apart from you saying his thematic ideas have worked themselves into his incidental stuff lately - he's been doing that for decades)

Do people here really say "he's lost it", though? I don't think they do.

I'm sorry, I don't think I was clear about what I meant. I don't mean that his thematic ideas are only recently being juxtaposed into his incidental stuff. Of course he's been doing that since nearly the beginning. What I mean, is that his approach to thematic content is being applied to his incidental stuff. The whole idea of finding the clearest way to express is not only being applied to his thematic content, but also to how he approaches his non-thematic content. The whole point is that people are starting to think that he is just rehashing things from before, when in fact he could be applying a process of refinement to his own voice.

I don't know if people would actually say that he's lost it, but sometimes I think the criticism that takes place here can very much abandon any idea of what John Williams himself intended to accomplish. Just because one of his works didn't please me, I cannot seem to bring myself to abandon his intent so overtly as if it didn't count. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

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Williams as a composer for films seems to be very much emotion and kinetically oriented, at least those are the aspects he most often discusses in the interviews, getting the tempi right and the emotional underpinnings correct, obviously reflected in his themes. I would love to hear his own ideas and views on the intellectual side of things, how he approaches the musical narrative from the angle of subtext and does he go deeply into the research for his projects like some composers (e.g. Howard Shore) do. To me he has always been a deeply thoughtful man but one who usually lets his music speak for itself instead of doing a lot of explaining or expounding on his researches or thought processes on the subtleties of what reflects what in his scores. I also think intellectual fascination and the thrust and momentum it brings into creating music and reflecting ideas through music is very important and I think Williams has kind of found a very clear avenue of expressing this thoughtful side in his music with clarity without ever being too subtle so that people can't register it and being bold enough for it to be a relatively easily readable and accessible. This approach is not such that it would need months of reading and research but he seems to focus on the basics of emotion and kinetics first and then expounding on the intellectual layers if he wishes to and if the movie requires it. In other words he does not overthink the score and his foremost concern of emotion is something that makes him such a success since that is something that in the end registers most powerfully with people.

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Good post OP, I agree with almost all of it (apart from you saying his thematic ideas have worked themselves into his incidental stuff lately - he's been doing that for decades)

Do people here really say "he's lost it", though? I don't think they do.

I've never really seen any prevalent attitude that he's "dumbed down" things either. Then again, I don't read that many threads, so I guess I'm in no position to say.

Williams is a very visceral composer, going for rhythm, colours and emotional flavours -- first and foremost. So to judge him by the standards of some avant garde cerebral approach would be wrong (even though he's done that too, like his Altman scores).

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I don't know if people would actually say that he's lost it, but sometimes I think the criticism that takes place here can very much abandon any idea of what John Williams himself intended to accomplish. Just because one of his works didn't please me, I cannot seem to bring myself to abandon his intent so overtly as if it didn't count. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

It makes a lot of sense. You're right that a lot of the John Williams discussion can be mean spirited here, but knowing the place, I wouldn't really read too much into it. Most of the time it's just egos stirring the pot for the sake of debate. There's also a lot of healthy amount of 'devil's advocate' that goes on.

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My personal opinion would be that Williams hasn't really changed his basic approach insofar as he still approaches every film he writes music for with maximum devotion and willingness to provide the best possible score in that given moment and for that particular movie. However, speaking of nuances ... Well, let me just say that one can always come up with some "conspiracy theory" if one is really (desperately) looking for it. :P

In connection to this I can also mention a review of War Horse written by one of most renowned Slovenian film critics I read recently who opined: "[...] We are well aware that the trenches of World War I were butchery, but this movie which is taking place on all fronts and in all trenches of WW I changes [this butchery] into poetry - into epic meditation, lyrical contemplative mosaic, into an already-heard musical by John Williams in which the blood only flows behind the curtain. [...]"

I haven't yet seen War Horse or heard the score, but this seems a little far-fetched to me. At least for now.

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I suppose that I just got tired of reading posts in this forum that pretty much amounted to "My favorite composer is better than your favorite composer and they're all better than John Williams" that I wanted to offer up an opportunity to discuss what makes John Williams so great (or not that great if you happen to think so). True, there is a great deal of healthy devil's advocate play going on, but it never seems to facilitate a really good discussion.

As far as him being a visceral composer, I believe that is true in so much as his roots go very deep in emotion when he comes up with anything. However, I'm not sure that he has a tendency to emphasize one thing over another (i.e. rhythm over melodic content) only for the sake of doing so for the film. He doesn't seem to be ruled by that kind of principle. To me, he seems to be so much more focused on the larger picture and the sound of the whole. Instead of saying, ok it's in action sequence so lets be more rhythmic, as would be the more uncontrollable urge to do, he will often fight those urges for something better, and more capturing of the moment. AND do so with clarity. That seems to be his gift, whereas most composers have a dramatic instinct (oftentimes being very formulaic), Williams' dramatic instinct has a much wider dynamic range because he allows for those possibilities that are NOT necessarily in the formulae.

Does anyone have any favorite Williams-score moments? Not just themes, but also points anywhere in any score where his genius just captivates or surprises you?

My personal opinion would be that Williams hasn't really changed his basic approach insofar as he still approaches every film he writes music for with maximum devotion and willingness to provide the best possible score in that given moment and for that particular movie. However, speaking of nuances ... Well, let me just say that one can always come up with some "conspiracy theory" if one is really (desperately) looking for it. :P

In connection to this I can also mention a review of War Horse written by one of most renowned Slovenian film critics I read recently who opined: "[...] We are well aware that the trenches of World War I were butchery, but this movie which is taking place on all fronts and in all trenches of WW I changes [this butchery] into poetry - into epic meditation, lyrical contemplative mosaic, into an already-heard musical by John Williams in which the blood only flows behind the curtain. [...]"

I haven't yet seen War Horse or heard the score, but this seems a little far-fetched to me. At least for now.

I haven't yet seen War Horse either, or Tin Tin for that matter. But what you quoted from that review sounds like overly dramatic rhetoric. I'll have to go read it once I've seen the film.

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I don't think Williams has dumbed down his approach at all. Quite the opposite. He's clearly matured and learnt more of his craft. He had already mastered melody and harmony in the 70s and 80s, yet his scores of the 90s and 00s show far more skill with orchestration and rhythm. His music has become more complex and interesting to the ear.

Does anyone have any favorite Williams-score moments? Not just themes, but also points anywhere in any score where his genius just captivates or surprises you?

I would have to say Forward To Time Past from Harry Potter And The Prisoner Of Azkaban. The originality of this atmospheric piece with dissonant harmony and instruments recorded and played back in reverse. I don't think anyone has done a more brilliant musical depiction of time travel.

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I would have to say Forward To Time Past from Harry Potter And The Prisoner Of Azkaban. The originality of this atmospheric piece with dissonant harmony and instruments recorded and played back in reverse. I don't think anyone has done a more brilliant musical depiction of time travel.

:up:

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I would have to say Forward To Time Past from Harry Potter And The Prisoner Of Azkaban. The originality of this atmospheric piece with dissonant harmony and instruments recorded and played back in reverse. I don't think anyone has done a more brilliant musical depiction of time travel.

That's definitely a good one. For me it's still the ascending strings at the end of E.T. before the final fanfare. Whoa...

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