Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 In now way would I call plagiarism on that.And I never did.All I am saying is that this is the same thing as with "Pan," "Banning," etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I dunno, I think most of the Hook rips are more disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Apparently John Williams was under a huge time pressure, so that might explain why he leaned on the temp track more then usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's understandable, given the length of the score. And I'm sure the time spent on writing the musical numbers ate into his normal composition time, even if many of the melodies themselves were kept. Still, it's a little disappointing.At the same time, because there's so much music the percentage of unoriginal stuff is not that big I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 "Banning Back Home" is from a piece by Dave Grusin, I forget which one.It's called "Mountain Dance":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=856AKiIcrSUIt was also featured in the 1984 film Falling in Love w/ Robert De Niro and Meryl Streep.It's clearly a case of "temp love". I wonder if they weren't able to license the original piece and then they asked JW to do something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Well, the musical stuff may have given him a thematic basis. but it's still an awfull lot of music to write. Wasn't Hook the film were JW was scoring while newly edited footage was coming in? instead of his usual practice of scoring a fully assembled cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yup, that's what I was trying to say (your first sentence). About the other stuff, Williams said in a WotW interview that WotW was the first time he was scoring before seeing the film. So maybe he was just forgetting about Hook. But somebody mentioned that there's an awful lot of mickey mousing in Hook for it to have been written without the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yup, that's what I was trying to say (your first sentence). About the other stuff, Williams said in a WotW interview that WotW was the first time he was scoring before seeing the film. So maybe he was just forgetting about Hook. But somebody mentioned that there's an awful lot of mickey mousing in Hook for it to have been written without the film.Well, doesn't tell us much.He might have started working on it before seeing the complete movie, and then, once he had the entire movie, he might have adjusted his score to fit the movie...Sounds to me like a whole lotta work, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Well, there's nothing new under the sun anyway!Everything sounds like something that's been done before... you just have to find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 the thing is Williams makes every composition he borrows from shine with its own light...BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitis, its mcneellys IJ and the phantom train of doom who borrows heavily from it (and other williams works) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 In the case of McNeely "borrowing" is a very mild word.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...Take "Hook" for example. Is it a completely original movie? Of course not! It was inspired by K.M. Barrie's book, countless pirate films, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s).Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.I'm not a temp-track apologist. I agree it's not the best practice, nor something uplifting for the composer. But it always has been part of Hollywood film music, so I guess one must deal with it. Some composers are more deft to eschew its traps and find a way to survive it. Others instead are mere xerox machines without any dignity. I agree that in a perfect world a director would trust the composer without imposing him any kind of preconcepted approach.If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...These are the kind of lame broad generalizations typical of middle-man culture. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.I'm not a temp-track apologist. I agree it's not the best practice, nor something uplifting for the composer. But it always has been part of Hollywood film music, so I guess one must deal with it. Some composers are more deft to eschew its traps and find a way to survive it. Others instead are mere xerox machines without any dignity. I agree that in a perfect world a director would trust the composer without imposing him any kind of preconcepted approach.Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...These are the kind of broad generalization typical of middle-man culture. Meh.Who is talking about a perfect (fantasy) world...? And what ifs? If you knew anything about the creative process, you'd know this!The fact that we know which temp tracks were used is what bugs some of you! And not the fact that every piece written was inspired by something else to create something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity.Yes, there is a difference.But we must also accept that in writing film scores not every single cue can be written using old traditions... especially not when we have 2 hours of music! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Who is talking about a perfect (fantasy) world...? And what ifs? If you knew anything about the creative process, you'd know this!I despise any kind of broad generalizations and yours make no difference. I do a creative job for a living so I know really well where I'm coming from. You say "every piece of music/movies/art etc. is inspired by something else". Sure, ok. But that's the lamest way to end what could be an interesting conversation about the use of temp-tracks, how composers must deal with it, etc. like I was trying to do. I do not care about who invented the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Like I said earlier, this temp-track business is not a big affair.Temp tracks are and have always been part of the film scoring process.Sometimes we know which temp tracks were used, because--admittedly--sometimes the composer leans too heavily on temp tracks, sometimes we don't. When we know, we have these discussions. When we don't, we admire how great the composer is!But again, for me, this is no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I bet you didn't see that coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Schindler's Workforce also sounds surprisingly similar to the piece used in the original trailer... Eh, I don't think that counts. The groove is similar, but that's hardly a reason to call the entire cue unoriginal. If that's true then every jazz chart that uses a swing pattern on cymbals (i.e. the beginning of "Pink Panther Theme") is unoriginal, and there are thousands of those.Schindler's Workforce does bear a striking resemblance to Kilar's Exodus. And since that was the cue used in the trailer, it can hardly be a coincidence. It's not a clone of the Kilar piece, and the similarity isn't annoying. But it's clearly there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there.If there is an artist that somehow captures the magic of Hollywood in his movie paintings it is surely Struzan. I love his work for films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 He's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I usually prefer his one-character pose sheets to his gang of floating heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldfingers 126 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there.Struzan made the second version for the VHS release and because Dustin Hoffman don't like the first version.La-La Land took the first version for the cover, i prefer ! Dustin Hoffman have a more sinister look and we can see the Jolly Roger !Personnally i love the Struzan concept for teaser poster : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 because Dustin Hoffman don't like the first version.I pity da fool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodMusician 56 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I dunno how familiar you are all to the Islands of Adventure music, but if you listen to "Call to the Adventure" and some of the other general park music (not that designed for the individual islands) it is almost literally a lift from hook from the flying sequence to the never feast. lolI wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece!Who cares, anyway? It's a disposable piece of source music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 You're a very negative person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitisIt just sounds very familiar, but i guess Spielberg and Williams were creatively in a bit of a rut in the early 90's. The latter part of ULTIMATE WAR is much better than the first, though (as it illustrates the duel) and features Williams' best Korngold imitation to date. I still wonder why he didn't edit parts of the long cue together instead of cutting it up midway.You're a very negative person.Should i go away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitisIt just sounds very familiar, but i guess Spielberg and Williams were creatively in a bit of a rut in the early 90's. The latter part of ULTIMATE WAR is much better than the first, though (as it illustrates the duel) and features Williams' best Korngold imitation to date. I still wonder why he didn't edit parts of the long cue together instead of cutting it up midway.I have always loved the second half more than the first as well. It's just amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodMusician 56 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece!Who cares, anyway? It's a disposable piece of source music.I thought source music had a 'source' heh... I love that cue honestly. It reminds me of the 90's playing The Sims or those old computer golf/put put games which had that sort of 90's music in itAnd I do think you're awefully negative/ critical lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demondm810 399 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Criticizing Ultimate War?!? Why don't we start bitching about Desert Chase and Adventures on Earth while we're at it. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 And I do think you're awefully negative/ critical lolOf all things, i never expected BANNING BACK HOME to trigger that reaction. But i had it coming after ill-speaking about compulsive hoarders of INDIANA JONES memorabilia.On the bright side, i just discovered John Barry's THE LAST VALLEY and enjoy the heck out of it!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NuxDIDgmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Criticizing Ultimate War?!? Why don't we start bitching about Desert Chase and Adventures on Earth while we're at it. Sigh.I think the contiguous 30 minute chunk of music starting with "Tink Grows Up" and ending with the end of the end credits is the pinnacle of John Williams scoring career. So there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Criticizing Ultimate War?!? Why don't we start bitching about Desert Chase and Adventures on Earth while we're at it. Sigh.at least those are great pieces of music from great films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demondm810 399 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Criticizing Ultimate War?!? Why don't we start bitching about Desert Chase and Adventures on Earth while we're at it. Sigh.I think the contiguous 30 minute chunk of music starting with "Tink Grows Up" and ending with the end of the end credits is the pinnacle of John Williams scoring career. So there!Good, I'm not crazy, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's sad when a lousy movie taints a great score in some people's eyes. It's wonderful, however, when these people won't buy that score, leaving one more for someone who will appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's sad when a lousy movie taints a great score in some people's eyes. It's wonderful, however, when these people won't buy that score, leaving one more for someone who will appreciate it.I wouldn't count on that. The SOLD OUT button looms large on HOOK, even now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Be that as it may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 I dont think 5,000 copies will even last 24 hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Anyone know where should I order it from so I don't get awfully robbed by shipping costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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