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John Williams' student works?


Thor

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The symphony isn't the only concert work by JW shrewn in mystery. There are also the very early student works he did, of which only two are known - the piano sonata and the wind quintet. Both of these are presumably from 1951, which means that they must have been written at the very end of his UCLA studies, just prior to his drafting to the air force. He was 19 at the time.

Of course, I'm very curious about these pieces (especially the piano sonata, which strangely is JW's only work for the instrument), but I also can't help but wonder if there several other 'early works' by him that no one has yet heard about. In a backstage interview (available on youtube), a girl asks him what his first composition was, and he responds something to the effect of "something for flute". This could either mean the wind quintet or something else altogether.

Either way, John Williams' teenage and student works -- should more exist -- is an area left unexplored and unresearched. I wonder how one would go about finding out more?

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It's not like a musician all of a sudden wakes up one day, writes out a whole score and publishes it. Composing is something that takes practice in the same way that performing does. So I'm sure Williams did dozens of pieces as a student, if not hundreds. But I wonder if they're really worth hearing.

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They probably aren't worth hearing from a musical perspective, but from a historical one they would be helpful in charting the evolution of JW's music and style.

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Thor, is that true?

Miguel, anyone?

Yes, the Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble is often confused as his second symphony.

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There is no 2nd symphony, at least not in a complete form.

After Williams withdraw the symphony from his catalogue of work, there was an interview (can't recall which one now) were it was mentioned he would be working on a second one -- which sounds weird... maybe they wanted to say he was revising the first one.

Also, the 2 symphony mistake can easily be attributed to the sinfonietta confusion as mentioned above.

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Back to the query I posted in the first thread, does anyone know how one would go about researching this stuff? What resources would one need? Where should one go? Is it at all possible to find out things from way over here, in Norway, or would you have to live in the US? Would these things be archived in the UCLA library, perhaps?

Questions, questions!

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Questions that I'm probably the only one to have?!

So let's look at this a bit systematically. I kinda obsess a bit about 'career beginnings' like this. It's just something I find extremely fascinating (for a variety of reasons).

1932-1947: John Williams' childhood in NY. He was doing piano practice from an early age (at least from age 9, maybe before), so maybe he even composed a couple of kiddie pieces in the late 30's? Or at least the early 40's? Not expecting Mozart-type prodigy excellence, but probably something.

1947/48-1950: North Hollywood High School. Could he have written some pieces here too, in addition to further private piano studies?

1950-1951: If am to understand the dates right, he studied at UCLA for only one year here, as well as private studies with Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco. Not enough time to get a degree, I would assume, but it must have been a fruitful composing period nonetheless. This is where he probably wrote the aforementioned student works. I suspect there are more. He also did a lot jazz playing in clubs and with various companies (I believe this is where he met his future wife Barbara Ruick), so it must have been a very busy time in his late teens.

1951-1955: The Air Force. He mostly arranged existing music for military band, but as we now know, he also wrote (and arranged) music for the 1955 (1954?) travelogue film YOU ARE WELCOME. Again, there were lots of piano and arranging gigs with bands, dance companies and military bands. But probably not a lot of compositions.

1955-195?: He apparently had plans to return to UCLA to finish his studies there, but chose the Juilliard School in NY instead after discharge from the air force. This is where he studied with Rosina Lhevinne. I don't know how long he studied here, nor if he got a degree. I only know that he got an honorary degree many years later. Composition-wise, this is the period he got his first pieces recorded for commercial release, namely "Aunt Orsavella" and "Hello", the latter being available on his first solo record THE JOHN TOWNER TOUCH (1957). Still, it's a bit of a hazy period. Did he do any other compositions from 1955 untill his first film score assignment DADDY-O in 1959? I would think so.

From 1959, we have more overview of his material, even though 'new' things still surface (especially in the tv area). We can only speculate on the amount of compositions prior to that, but it's really an area worth exploring in more detail, if one had access to the resources.

Please chime in if you have something to add or correct to the above. Miguel, Augie, filmmusic, Maurizio or others who share my interest in this thing.

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1955-195?: He apparently had plans to return to UCLA to finish his studies there, but chose the Juilliard School in NY instead after discharge from the air force. This is where he studied with Rosina Lhevinne. I don't know how long he studied here, nor if he got a degree.

If I'm not mistaken he only studed there one year (told by Williams himself)

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1955-195?: He apparently had plans to return to UCLA to finish his studies there, but chose the Juilliard School in NY instead after discharge from the air force. This is where he studied with Rosina Lhevinne. I don't know how long he studied here, nor if he got a degree.

If I'm not mistaken he only studed there one year (told by Williams himself)

Are you talking about UCLA or Juilliard? As I mentioned above, he did indeed only study one year at UCLA, but I'm more uncertain when it comes to Juilliard.

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I consulted my DIAMOND HEAD CD liner notes, and according to that, he basically enrolled and left Juilliard the same year (1955), so you were right -- he was only one year there too. That means one year each at UCLA and Juilliard, respectively, on each side of his air force stint. No completed (higher) education, then, but it's not like that has hindered his career. :)

According to the liner notes, he moved back to California in 1955, where he immediately got hired in the Columbia studio orchestra (largely due to Morris Stoloff) as a pianist. And then a bit later he was discovered by Stanley Wilson of Revue studios, and things spiralled from there.

That does, however, not mean that he ONLY did arranging/piano gigs in the 4 four years untill his first feature film assignment. We already mentioned "Aunt Orsavella" and "Hello". I think it would be safe to assume that he composed some other things too (in his "spare time") in those years.

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Questions that I'm probably the only one to have?!

No, you're not ;)

1932-1947: John Williams' childhood in NY. He was doing piano practice from an early age (at least from age 9, maybe before), so maybe he even composed a couple of kiddie pieces in the late 30's? Or at least the early 40's? Not expecting Mozart-type prodigy excellence, but probably something.

I remember an interview from the early 80's, I think, where Williams mentioned that he would stay home studying Rimsky-Korrsakov's books on orchestration instead of going play ball with other kids in those early years in NYC. Don't ever recall reading about actually any writing, though is not totally unlikely, but up until later in the game, Williams ambitions were to became a concert pianist.

1947/48-1950: North Hollywood High School. Could he have written some pieces here too, in addition to further private piano studies?

1950-1951: If am to understand the dates right, he studied at UCLA for only one year here, as well as private studies with Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco. Not enough time to get a degree, I would assume, but it must have been a fruitful composing period nonetheless. This is where he probably wrote the aforementioned student works. I suspect there are more. He also did a lot jazz playing in clubs and with various companies (I believe this is where he met his future wife Barbara Ruick), so it must have been a very busy time in his late teens.

For the record, Williams first met Ruick in high school. I believe they were sweethearts, but for some reason they went separate ways, and Ruick married actor Robert Horton Jr in 1953. They were divorced in '55.

Williams has mentioned several times, and I've read articles from the era that go along with that, that it was then that his arranging skills were first really needed. Again from what I've read, they would play on his band (nicknamed Curly Williams & Band) mostly arrangements of hits from the day.

I would imagine that serious writing (and by serious I mean, that he thought that could be something he would be doing on a regular basis) only started by the time he enrolled at UCLA and had the private lessons with Castelnuovo-Tedesco.

1955-195?: He apparently had plans to return to UCLA to finish his studies there, but chose the Juilliard School in NY instead after discharge from the air force. This is where he studied with Rosina Lhevinne. I don't know how long he studied here, nor if he got a degree. I only know that he got an honorary degree many years later. Composition-wise, this is the period he got his first pieces recorded for commercial release, namely "Aunt Orsavella" and "Hello", the latter being available on his first solo record THE JOHN TOWNER TOUCH (1957). Still, it's a bit of a hazy period. Did he do any other compositions from 1955 untill his first film score assignment DADDY-O in 1959? I would think so.

Regarding his return to L.A. I've read about different dates. 1955, 56 and even 57 (though the later is unlikely has he married in 1956). Williams himself said he returned to L.A. in 1956 in an interview from 1999.

His earlier work in L.A. was as a pianist, something at which he would excel and was perceived as one of the best in the business. He played on such films as "South Pacific", "Funny Face", "Porgy and Bess" and soon enough he was being asked to arrange or orchestrate something during lunch hour. And the rest is history.

As for the Columbia Records contract, I believe that one came a little later, maybe around 1959. He had two albuns under his own name, dedicated to his own music to "Checkmate" and arrangements from show tunes, released on CD by FSM, plus a few singles, never released on CD. But the bulk of what he recorded at Columbia, with the likes of Mahalia Jackson, Frankie Laine, Vic Damone, and most notably, two albuns with drummer extraordinaire Shelly Manne, and many others, was as arranger and/or music director.

He also recorded between the late 50's and early 60's with many jazz artists as a pianist and as arranger, he worked extensively with Dave Pell, who was also a record company executive and called upon Williams when a piano man was in need for some session.

One final note... while my DVD says 1959, "Daddy-O" is listed as a 1958 film all over the place. I believe that in an interview with Richard Dyer, Williams also refers to that date (1958), but that might have had to do with the time when he was working on it, and not the actual release year...

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Thanks for filling in, Miguel. I willfully excluded much of that material since I wanted to focus on the composition aspect, but it gives some idea of his 'time use', at the very least.

I also remember the thing about Ruick and Williams meeting in high school, now that you mention it. Can't remember where I read it, though.

It's near-to-impossible to find out about possible compositions prior to 1950, I think. If so, that will exist in Williams' private collection.

But I had hoped it would be possible to find out more about his possible music in the two UCLA and Juilliard years. Maybe some archives there or something. That should be doable, but you'd probably have to live close to those universitites. Maybe it also would be possible to find out if he did more music in the air force (beyond YOU ARE WELCOME, arrangements etc.).

As for the 1955-1959 period, that's a bit tricky again. It's possible to trace everything ELSE he did (like all the stuff you mention), but his compositions? Difficult. To my knowledge, there is only "Aunt Orsavella" and "Hello".

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Thor, right now I'm working on a extensive listing of all recordings he made from the mid 50's on as performer/arranger, and in a number of them can be found some of those early works, like the two you mentioned before. Out of my memory I really can't recall others, but I'll surely let you know if I come across anything out of the TV/film realm.

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Would Williams' student works be available in any case for study? I would imagine he has not deposited them in any public archive or collection of any university. If any still exist surely they must be in his possession if it was not mandatory to submit such things to university archives.

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Would Williams' student works be available in any case for study? I would imagine he has not deposited them in any public archive or collection of any university. If any still exist surely they must be in his possession if it was not mandatory to submit such things to university archives.

I would think that if the works were composed in a university setting (like UCLA or Juilliard), they would exist somewhere there. Just like you can find old master theses in the university libraries.

Thor, right now I'm working on a extensive listing of all recordings he made from the mid 50's on as performer/arranger, and in a number of them can be found some of those early works, like the two you mentioned before. Out of my memory I really can't recall others, but I'll surely let you know if I come across anything out of the TV/film realm.

Thanks, that's great. We hardcore collectors have an 'unwritten rule' to help each other out if we discover obscure things. So I'll do the same for you, of course.

I also have plans to create a database for his tv work. I've been assembling information lately.

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OK, so let's sum up a bit about what we DO presently know about his early compositions in the first three decades (30's-50's).

1930's: ??

1940's: ?? Maybe something for flute? High school band?

1951: Wind Quintet

1951: Piano Sonata

1954: YOU ARE WELCOME

1956: "Hello"

1956: "Aunt Orsavella"

1959: DADDY-O

Anything else?

We would probably have to add the tv shows BACHELOR FATHER, M SQUAD and TALES OF WELLS FARGO, although I'm not sure about the start date (all the shows started in the late 50's, but Williams wasn't involved from the start in all of them. Anyone who knows the exact start years of each, feel free to insert them at the appropriate place! :)

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I'm going through the liner notes of all my Williams CD's, and Jerry Mcculley writes in FITZWILLY/THE LONG GOODBYE that JW not only arranged and played for band in high school, but also COMPOSED stuff for the high school band.

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If they're accessible, it seems like a good route for college works would be to see if there are any programs archived from student composition recitals. It wouldn't be the actual music, but if you found anything, at least you'd know what you were looking for.

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