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One thing that I find very interesting about John Williams's music is that he tends to pick keys that provide the right color for whatever it is he is scoring. Whether they just lay better on the instruments he's orchestrating, or whether he is consciously picking the key for a color/mood reason (the way it rings in people's ears) seems irrelevant because the keys are always portraying the right color.

But then I saw some of his manuscript, and it was pretty much void of key signature. He writes in accidentals everywhere. So this makes me wonder if he even thinks in a key at all, or if he just goes with colors. I mean, all composers have to think within the confines of what is possible, but maybe he just transcends the understanding of keys. Perhaps he just pours out colors and if they happen to be in a particular key, so be it.

Thoughts?

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Writing in accidentals seems like it would be a great deal more work because you have to write each one every time. I suppose what I'm getting at technically is... does he think "ok I'm going from D minor to F minor" or "ok I'm here and now I want to go there" and the d minor f minor thing is just a result of that thinking?

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Writing like this is a fairly common thing these days, basically because frequently you move around harmonically so much that having a key signature involved just gets in the way.

JW uses a common film scoring (and concert) technique of moving chords in mediant relations (a more advanced form of simple "mixture"), where the root of one chord is either a minor or major 3rd away from the next chord. This is different than the more conventional harmonic technique of root movement based on fourths (which is what simple minor and major are based on). Typically, this technique of moving chords in thirds is good for a couple of reasons: one, one chord to another usually preserves a chord tone, which is how the two chords relate. Second, moving chords this way doesn't "imply" a key the way moving chords in fourths does. You can have an entire stretch of chords moving in mediants and while you can hear the chords moving, they don't have direction towards a goal.

An example of this would be a series of major chords something like this: F - A-flat - E - G - E-flat - G-flat - etc...

The reason for omitting key signatures in this type of music is because...well, look at the example I just put up there. There's no key that would really fit that. So, if you put the key of F major at the beginning and then have this sequence, you're not only going to have to still write accidentals, you're going to have to cancel the key signature in lots of cases as well, which honestly just adds work instead of saving it.

Also: when musicians see a key signature, it puts them into a mindset of whatever that key is - a result of years spent practicing scales and other things, like ear training. Having this mindset is good when you are writing something that is in a certain key, but if they're thinking in D-major and you suddenly have this string of crap that's in B-flat minor or something, it can make sight-reading a little tricky.

Sometimes, JW writes in octatonic or diminished/half-diminished harmonies, whole-tone, or other types of "non-keyed" tonalities. These things feature a lot of accidentals, but don't have a key signature associated with them because it would just be a confusing mix of flats and sharps. Why confuse things? ha!

Typically, JW uses key signatures when he is writing more conventional music that is definitely "in a key," and stays there for a while. He still does that a lot, of course.

Hope that...um....helps? :blink: lol

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I rarely use key signatures any more, unless it is something like a March where a key signature is almost necessary...it is far too easy to get bogged down with silly enharmonics (is it a Bb? or an A#? On most instruments - and with 99% of players - there is no difference...though there should be), and can take more time to think about what note you want to hear, rather than just chucking in the note with an accidental and letting the player do the hard work....this sorts out the men from the boys! The confusion sometimes comes though when a novice does this, but forgets the rule that an accidental must carry through the bar - including any tie to the first note of the next bar. This gets forgotten sometimes, and can create merry havoc (as with an arrangament of Live & Let Die that I played recently).

There is only so far that rigid musical theory can be useful...increasingly, it has stopped being a rigid theoretical machine, and become a tool for writing music...which...is....kinda how it should be...

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With more frenetic and busy material, most composers (including amateurs like myself) don't bother with key signatures. As others have pointed, the rapid changes in keys is far too much work for the players who would have retune their brains to a variety of keys.

If the piece was heavily based on a single key, then I believe Williams and most composers use a specified key signature. But with Williams' modern material (especially his action material), it isn't so common.

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is it a Bb? or an A#? On most instruments - and with 99% of players - there is no difference

Wait, so there is a difference between those two notes on some instruments? Which ones?

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is it a Bb? or an A#? On most instruments - and with 99% of players - there is no difference

Wait, so there is a difference between those two notes on some instruments? Which ones?

Well if you want to be technical, B-flat and A-sharp and all enhharmonics are different for string instruments. They're technically different pitches. However, I'm pretty sure he was just talking about the spelling of the notes in a given key.

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is it a Bb? or an A#? On most instruments - and with 99% of players - there is no difference

Wait, so there is a difference between those two notes on some instruments? Which ones?

Well if you want to be technical, B-flat and A-sharp and all enhharmonics are different for string instruments. They're technically different pitches. However, I'm pretty sure he was just talking about the spelling of the notes in a given key.

But if you played them both on a string instrument (or any other instrument) would it sound any different?

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Well, it depends on the tuning system used, really. In the days before equal temperament there was a true pitch difference between enharmonics notes, one was definitely higher or lower than the other.

Check out this article: http://tuningmeister.com/Tutorial/TMEnharmonicsWestern.html

It really isn't the case so much in modern music using the equal temperament system.

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Judging by the manuscripts I've seen, most film scores don't use key signatures but certainly are in one key or another. Also it is common for scores to be transposed in concert pitch - no doubt making the conductor and orchestrator's lives easier.

From other scores I've seen harp notation being different enharmonically than other instruments playing the same notes. But that is typical due to harp pedaling. Makes sense.

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Well, it depends on the tuning system used, really. In the days before equal temperament there was a true pitch difference between enharmonics notes, one was definitely higher or lower than the other.

Check out this article: http://tuningmeister...icsWestern.html

It really isn't the case so much in modern music using the equal temperament system.

THanks! I will read this later.

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With more frenetic and busy material, most composers (including amateurs like myself) don't bother with key signatures. As others have pointed, the rapid changes in keys is far too much work for the players who would have retune their brains to a variety of keys.

If the piece was heavily based on a single key, then I believe Williams and most composers use a specified key signature. But with Williams' modern material (especially his action material), it isn't so common.

This pretty much sums it up. As for the picking of keys question from the original post, I suspect that JW is very mindful of this sort of thing, picking tonalities based on aural (color/mood) and instrumental considerations. I'll add that I doubt it's much of a conscious choice at this stage of his life and career - he probably gravitates toward a tonality naturally.

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I'd say he probably has perfect pitch or very good relative pitch anyway - this helps you subconciously think of the correct sounding key to write the piece in.

But JW modulates sooooo much and uses triplets sooooo much. Just take Harry Potter or Star Wars. There are key changes every 2 bars, in contrast to something like the Superman march which is largely in G major .... then I think he modulates into D maj etc. He uses the (cliche) technique pop tunes use a lot - modulating up or down (usually up) a half step.

As mentioned in a previous post Goldsmith uses the root to 3rd progression almost all the time. eg. F#minor to A minor , Aminor to Cminor etc

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I also thought this was about E.T.

His name is spelled "keyes".

Uhm, no.

Since the character is never named in the film, he got it from when we first see him -- waist down -- in the film, with a set of keys hanging from his belt.

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I am definitely aware of JW's chromatic mediant relationships and his octatonic writing. Of course those would have to be void of key signature because it would be too crazy to read or write.

On the subject of enharmonics for strings, I do know that generally sharps are played "sharper" because of their tendency to be ascending, and flats "flatter" because they tend to be descending. This makes for a better tension/release. I often wonder if that may be part of the reason that JW sometimes will write sharps even though passages are going downward, to go against the grain by taking advantage of a string player's natural tendencies.

On the subject of keys and tonality, I often hear John Williams talking about how he comes up with his themes in videos, and it seems to be very much a single note based approach, and almost as though it's void of harmony at the beginning. It would make sense to not want to be bogged down by even the thought harmony when inventing melodic content. Then perhaps he adds harmony later. I could picture him getting into some sort of Zen space where he is clearing his mind of all harmony and harmonic tendencies as he begins to put his themes together. It may be a reason why his harmonies and melodies are so interesting.

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What Jeremy said. :) A good amount of Williams' music is certainly written with a key signature intentionally implied, but the actual notation uses no key signatures because of the frequent modulation and atonal passages. Try writing out a Williams action cue with key signatures, for instance...it just doesn't work.

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