HOOK: Complete Cue List and Chronological Editing Guide

[1977 1,743]

Really hope we get this for BF, despite MV's comments about disappointing a bunch of people (perhaps he means those that already spent good money buying the flawed earlier expansion)

[Dr. Rick 1,155]

That's a good point, never thought of it that way!  

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I hope so too, wouldn't know what else to ask for Christmas. I keep ordering something from them the moment I want to have it out of fear it sells out.

[1977 1,743]

Exactly. I'm so glad I picked up Howard the Duck as the 1st pressing is already depleted. Wonder how many years it will take to repress.

[crumbs 14,301]

10 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Really hope we get this for BF, despite MV's comments about disappointing a bunch of people (perhaps he means those that already spent good money buying the flawed earlier expansion)

 

I'd love this to be the case but there's a lot of factors working against a new release of Hook. Not only all the lost master tapes (well, supposedly lost) but the Sony third-party ban. They would have needed signed contracts before the ban and LLL only had two scores in that category.

 

Hopefully when Sony did their 4K remaster of Hook last year they discovered the first generation scoring elements in their vault and worded MM up (like his friend at 20CF when the lost Alien 3 masters were found). Or maybe LLL had advance knowledge about Sony's policy change and fast-tracked the score, ala Minority Report with the Disney/20CF merger.

 

Still, MM has a battle on his hands to assemble a truly definitive release of this score. JW was very particular on the last expansion (sequencing changes, the slowed down prologue, "repetitive" cues omitted), plus MV's revelation about the unreleased material they discovered in 2011 that would probably never see the light of day -- possibly referring to the infamous lost demos for the abandoned Peter Pan musical. It was found, it all exists, but can MM get it all released?

[publicist 4,643]

You have to settle for the boot that has - all things considered - pristine sound and all those cues in unedited form (save for really minor inserts). From a business perspective, another release only makes sense if they found something to include beyond the pure session stuff, i. e. Williams' demos for the aborted musical.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I still can't believe JW is to blame for all the sequencing decisions in the 2012 set, though. It makes no sense that he allows MM to do what he wants and then starts complicating matters for one release.

[crumbs 14,301]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

I still can't believe JW is to blame for all the sequencing decisions in the 2012 set, though. It makes no sense that he allows MM to do what he wants and then starts complicating matters for one release.

 

At that point, Williams had only worked with MM on one release though hadn't he? 1941?

 

Mike hadn't built up the working relationship he has with Williams today, to the point JW only allows MM to handle his catalog.

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

You have to settle for the boot that has - all things considered - pristine sound and all those cues in unedited form (save for really minor inserts). From a business perspective, another release only makes sense if they found something to include beyond the pure session stuff, i. e. Williams' demos for the aborted musical.

 

Sums it up. I would still buy a definitive MM release if they found the first generation masters and did modern scans of the whole score, fixed the sequencing and included all the alternates and film inserts correctly.

 

But the big selling point of any future release has to be that 'treasure trove' of vaulted material MV couldn't divulge. It seems likely Williams recorded those abandoned songs before production started. Mike always tries to get these things into the public domain, so I'm cautiously optimistic these will eventually see the light of day.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I think MM had also done Home Alone before the Hook debacle.

[crumbs 14,301]

Oh yep, true.

[Holko 9,499]

27 minutes ago, crumbs said:

But the big selling point of any future release has to be that 'treasure trove' of vaulted material MV couldn't divulge.

Well we just saw them reissue an old release staight up, and they have done "fixed" new releases like Home Alone before. Even without magic unknown early demos I'd bet they'd leap at the opportunity to rectify that long sold-out old mess with a "sorry, we fucked up before, here's the better attempt" release with years more experience, success, and a competent producer behind it.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Imagine if they just re-issued the 2012 set. Maybe that's what will anger/disappoint us.

[crumbs 14,301]

Worst case scenario would be another Batman scenario where they can only reissue the same assembly as the existing expansion, just with improved audio quality.

 

I doubt Mike would be interested if that was his only option, it kinda goes against his mission statement (treat every release like it might be the last time anyone gets to expand that score).

[1977 1,743]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

Worst case scenario would be another Batman scenario where they can only reissue the same assembly as the existing expansion, just with improved audio quality.

 

If that were the case, I'd still be very happy. As nice as it would be to get previously unreleased stuff (songs, demos of songs, alternates, missing inserts reinstated, etc.), all I really want for Christmas is The Ultimate War (the whole thing including Rufio's Death and Hook vs Pan) without volume dips.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Agreed. If MM managed to do the score minus the demos and anything else we haven't heard at all in the first place, I'd buy it right away.

[ZackR 95]

If MM had the opportunity to do Hook HIS way, I'd rebuy pre-order on Day 1 without question. 

[Brando 1,856]

On 1/7/2013 at 5:37 AM, John Takis said:

I'm dredging this thread up again to revisit the question of the "lost day" theory, which I mentioned last year in my radio conversation with Tim Burden. The theory -- if you'll recall -- is that when the middle portion of the film was restructured and a number of scenes removed, one entire day was lost, and that this helps clear up any confusion about Hook and Tink's deal for "three days." I didn't originate this theory, but I did subscribe to it ... largely because it seemed plausible, and because the novelization seemed to support it.

Today, however, I was reading through the novel, and I noticed something that had previously escaped my attention. The novel recounts several of the deleted scenes (Jack's big pirate outing, Maggie and the captive Lost Boys) AFTER the Never-Feast and BEFORE Maggie's lullaby. That would have been the lost day. The detail I missed, however, is that the novel describes Jack's day with Hook in the form of a flashback -- a reminiscence by Jack, taking place on the same evening as the Never-Feast, about events that took place earlier in the day.

So a more careful reading of the novel would yield the following reconstructed timeline:

DAY 1

Peter Arrives in Neverland

Slicing The Hand [Deleted]

Peter Meets Hook

Peter Meets Lost Boys

Hook & Smee Plot

Believe Your Eyes [Partially Deleted]

DAY 2

Hook's Lesson

Pick 'Em Up

Jack's Pirate Outing [Deleted]

The Never-Feast

Maggie And The Lost Boys [Deleted]

When You're Alone

DAY 3

The Clock Museum

Peter's Sword Training [Deleted] (Jason reports that Topps card confirms this was filmed)

Ballgame Sequence

Peter Regains Memories

Bonfire With Lost Boys [Deleted] (not certain this was filmed)

DAY 4

Tink Grows Up

The Ultimate War

Peter Leaves Neverland

Again, this is only based on the novel. I haven't read the shooting script, and I don't know what other changes might have taken place either before or after the novel was written. But IF the novel is taken as accurate to the initial cut of the film, then it would mean that an entire day was not lost after all. It would mean that several scenes were cut, and other scenes were moved around, but that the total number of days remained the same. To compare, here's how the film breaks down:

DAY 1

Peter Arrives in Neverland

Peter Meets Hook

Peter Meets Lost Boys

Hook & Smee Plot

DAY 2

Pick 'Em Up

Hook's Lesson

The Never-Feast

When You're Alone/Believe Your Eyes [shortened]

DAY 3

The Clock Museum

Ballgame Sequence

Peter Regains Memories

Tink Grows Up (in the novel, this is a dawn scene, so it may still belong to Day 4)

DAY 4

The Ultimate War

Peter Leaves Neverland

If anyone out there has read the shooting script or has any more detailed information, please feel free to post it here!

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but Hook is one of my all time favorite movies and i had to ask- what is the 'slicing the hand' and 'believe your eyes' deleted scenes? I did notice that after arriving in Neverland Peter has a bandage on his hand when the pirates corner him, but it never occurred to me that that's probably a deleted scene.

[WampaRat 1,105]

The 2012 booklet talks about a deleted scene in which Pan doesn’t believe he’s really in Neverland. So Tink cuts his hand to prove he’s not dreaming. Incidentally, the scene was scored and can be heard in the film version of “presenting the hook” on Disc 2 of the 2012 release.

[Goldfingers 126]

Here is a promotionnal picture from "Slicing the hand" deleted scene.

 

 

And here a capture of the scene.

 

 

The deleted scene "Believe your eyes" is available in the 4K UHD Blu-ray release.

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

You can also hear audio from the "Believe Your Eyes" scene in this old commercial

 

 

[Goldfingers 126]

Some people have memories of the "Slicing the hand" scene in the theatrical cut. I would like to find original 35mm of it to confirm.

 

Tinkerbell lines from "Believe your eyes" scene was also on some paper press ads: Pirate ship in front of the suns and moons of Neverland.  

 

I tried to edit the scene in the movie as it was supposed to be.

 

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Woah!  nice job there!  I'm impresed!

 

However, I think the next scene shown after "Goodnight Neverland" would be "Pick Em Up", since that happens at sunrise

 

That's a fun new avatar too!

[Goldfingers 126]

Thank you. Yes, "Pick em up" happens at sunrise but Neverland have three suns. The visual richness of "Pick em up" sequence is the environment variations of Neverland in lights and weather.

 

I edited it like it is in the different scripts I have. "Pick Em up" always is after the lesson scene. I think Spielberg finally edited the scene before the lesson scene to not stay too much time with Hook as "Believe your eyes" was cut.

 

 

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Ah, that's very interesting! And that makes SO much sense now!

Thank you!

 

In those scripts, does the "Pick Em Up" sequence always lead into the sword fight training which leads into the catapult scene, like in the final cut?  I always assumed it would have gone Pick Em Up -> Hook and Jack tour pirate town -> Peter and Rufio sword fight training -> Hook and Jack row boat scene ->Jack and Maggie in classroom scene -> Lost Boys paint peter and launch him from catapult - > the neverfeast

But then after Spielberg completely deleted the pirate town tour and row boat scene, he then also shrunk down the sword fight training and catapult scenes and have them immediately follow the Pick em Up scene to just keep the momentum going

[Goldfingers 126]

No, the sword fight training is litteraly one day after the "Pick Em up" scene. In one script, the scene is after the clock museum scene, in the second, before. Lost boys suggest to steal hook's hook at the end of the sword fight training.

 

The Pirate town tour can't be before the classroom. Maggie is imprisoned after the classroom and the pirate town tour/ rowboat scenes are the next move from Hook to brainwash Jack. Keeping his mind busy with tons of distraction and fun to make him forget his world and family. 

I'm sure Spielberg was really frustrated to cut these scenes because it was the opportunity to show more of the stuffs they built for the movie

 

The problem is that the Hook script was modified every days. When you have enough scripts to compare, you can see how chaotic it was.

 

 

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Fascinating! 

[Brando 1,856]

Completely forgot to check this thread, so much fascinating stuff. I watched the movie this morning actually and rewatched the deleted scenes again and i remember now the 'believe your eyes scene'. So unfortunate that most of this stuff was cut, i so wish to see it all. And its funny you say some people remember seeing the slicing the hand scene in theaters, because Jaws 2 has a similar situation. Some people claim that there was a shot of a character who, after being eaten by the shark, is seen inside the mouth of the shark, even though the director and actress deny this scene was ever fimed.

[JohnnyD 1,220]

I don't know if this has been answered, but what is the End Credits sequence as composed and conducted by the Maestro? Was or is there anything in-between End Credits and Exit Music?

[Jay 37,287]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:04 PM, JohnnyD said:

Just out of curiosity, how was the End Credits sequence suppose to go? Was it End Credits / The Lost Boy Chase (Reprise) / Exit Music?

 

On 4/1/2019 at 12:29 PM, Jay said:

 

Yes, but Williams also specifically recorded a short insert to bridge the Lost Boys piece (which wasn't re-recorded) to Exit Music.

 

[JohnnyD 1,220]

I didn't realize I asked two years ago. Thanks for the reminder. Out of curiosity, what exactly is that short insert? Is it used in the film? I know the film utilized tracked music after The Lost Boys Chase (The Arrival of Tink, and Kensington Gardens) while Exit Music was not used.

[Jay 37,287]

Yes it's heard in the film and the LLL track, it's the timpani hit that is used to cut off The Lost Boys Chase early

[JohnnyD 1,220]

Hypothetically speaking, would an expanded release have End Credits and Exit Music as separate tracks, or would it be the entire End Credits sequence as one track (End Credits / The Lost Boys Chase / Exit Music)?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

They're showing the film on TV on Saturday here. I'm telling you, it's a sign.

[Jay 37,287]

10 hours ago, JohnnyD said:

Hypothetically speaking, would an expanded release have End Credits and Exit Music as separate tracks, or would it be the entire End Credits sequence as one track (End Credits / The Lost Boys Chase / Exit Music)?

 

Ideally the combined version to end the main program and the discrete cues in the bonus tracks I suppose

[JohnnyD 1,220]

Huh. For some reason, I was thinking vice-versa. You have more experience, though. Thanks; very cool!

[Jay 37,287]

JW's intended end credit sequence is to segue from the opening cue he recorded into the first ~2 minutes of the Lost Boy Chase, into the timpani hit, into End Credits music.  It's a proper 6 minute end credit suite, he just didn't re-record those first 2 minutes of The Lost Boys Chase, they used the same recording they had already nailed down for the film sequence.  I cannot think of a good reason not to replicate JW's intentions on a proper expansion.

 

It's Spielberg who messed with his intentions by replacing the end of the end credits with a reprise of the ending of the same cue that just finished up the film itself - the same thing he just did two years earlier on Always.

 

It's nice to hear the clean ending of the End Credits opening via the boots/leaks of course (for me personally, hearing clean endings / openings are always a special little treat), but it's not the way JW ever intended it to be heard.  He intended that music to segue right into The Lost Boys Chase.

 

As for Exit Music, it certainly works well as its own track, and I like how we've gotten some fairly different takes of it between the leaks and boots and LLL CD, but it's still something he meant to be heard only as the end of the end credits sequence and not as its own track

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I never understood why people did that, end their movie credits with the music that just ended the film itself 5 minutes ago. So repetitive.

[Jay 37,287]

Yea, Spielberg made the wrong call for both Always and Hook I'd say.

[JohnnyD 1,220]

 

13 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yea, Spielberg made the wrong call for both Always and Hook I'd say.

 Regarding the end credits, yeah; don't forget about War Horse.

[Jay 37,287]

The worst is Attack of the Clones, where George Lucas replaced his entire unique end credits piece with the Across the Stars concert arrangement.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

I

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

The worst is Attack of the Clones, where George Lucas replaced his entire unique end credits piece with the Across the Stars concert arrangement.

Was an End Credits suite ever recorded or did Lucas ask Williams to do this even before the recording sessions?

[Jay 37,287]

His unique end credits pieces is on the soundtrack album, in the track "Confrontation with Count Dooku and Finale"

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

Yeah this track would have make a better finale for the movie

[Jay 37,287]

Yes

[Corellian2019 383]

9 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea, Spielberg made the wrong call for both Always and Hook I'd say.

 

And the end credits for Close Encounters

[Jay 37,287]

Oh yea - big time. That's actually the worst ever end credits mangling. Good call

[crumbs 14,301]

Can't forget The Lost World. Not only replacing JW's intended finale with tracked music, but changing the structure of his intended end credits as a result (with shoddy edits galore and the especially hacked-up TLW theme relegated to the end).

 

Most would probably argue it's a rare instance of music tracking done right, but it's still a radical tonal departure from JW's intended score.

[JohnnyD 1,220]

1 hour ago, Corellian2019 said:

 

And the end credits for Close Encounters

 

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Can't forget The Lost World.

 

I forgot about those two; though, in fairness, the Close Encounters edit was replicated on the original album AND the remastered expanded 40th anniversary release. I like it as an alternate.

[Brando 1,856]

Does 'Hook's Entrance' in the film start with an alternate take? The section I'm referring to is when Hook begins to walk down the stairs. On the album version there's drums and I believe strings underneath, however in the film, the drums are absent but the strings or whatever instrument it is is still there. Separate take or did they somehow remove the drums for the film mix?

[Jay 37,287]

Didier just grabbed a take that sounded good for the LLL CD (which at least is different from the take on the leak so we have two different performances to enjoy). The film versions of all the cues in the score are edited together from several takes. A producer like Mike Matessino or Neil Bulk always figures out all the correct take portions and re-creates the original choices made from the fresh transfer of the best elements. Didier didn't do that.